Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 49 - Arriving Just in Time to Push & Pumping on a Train

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kirtan with baby right after birth

Almost 2 years after her daughter was born, and following a cross-country move closer to family in California, Kirtan shares the details of her firstborn’s birth. She has an unusually quick, 6-hour unmedicated labor and arrives at the hospital just in time to push, similarly to Simone a couple of episodes ago, in Episode 47. Kirtan will then share quite a bit about her struggles with breastfeeding, including experiencing a painful letdown as well as anxiety she experienced surrounding not only breastfeeding but also in introducing solids. As a bonus, you’ll hear about an intentional ritual her husband, Brendan, initiated for both parents to get good chunks of sleep in the early weeks -- one that supported healthy nursing rhythms. Second bonus: an entertaining story on Kirtan pumping on a subway home from work!

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Episode Topics:

  • Taking 3 birth classes, an infant CPR class, and other things they did to prep for birth

  • Labor starts with contractions, then water breaking and progressing quickly from there

  • Arriving at hospital during transition

  • Having to hold off on pushing until doc can arrive

  • Not minding being on her back for pushing, baby born in only about 20 minutes

  • Umbilical cord is short, so they milk it and cut it so Juniper can come up to Kirtan’s chest

  • Manual extraction of placenta following it not coming out on its own

  • Feeling totally exhausted after birth

  • Wanting to stay in hospital for the 2nd night after doc offered for her to go home early

  • Setting timer to be sure she fed baby at least every 3 hours

  • Lactation consultant visit at home to help troubleshoot when Kirtan experiences pain in first couple of weeks

  • Anxiety about breastfeeding and all of baby’s food

  • Pumping challenges & pumping on subway home from work

  • The challenging reality of how long breastfeeding takes in the early weeks

  • Strategy her husband came up with for each of them to get 6 hrs of sleep, trading off caring for baby with partner bringing baby to her to feed every 3 hours

Resources:

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*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.

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Interview Transcript

Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today, I have a former student of mine, Kirtan. Welcome Kirtan.

[00:00:08] Kirtan: Hi, thank you.

[00:00:09] Lisa: So glad to have you here. You're going to share some details about your birth story and your breastfeeding story of your first born today, right? Juniper is her name.

[00:00:20] Kirtan: That's right, Juniper, born almost two years ago.

[00:00:25] Lisa: So fun. Fun way to mark the occasion.

[00:00:27] Kirtan: Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently, just trying to see what I can remember and what has faded away. And it's, it's kind of surprising actually. Because we assume that like, okay, obviously the pain, the memory of the pain must like fade away because otherwise, how do you do it again?

[00:00:50]And I did have an unmedicated birth, but really, I still remember quite clearly what, like the contractions felt like and all of that.

[00:01:00] Lisa: Interesting because a lot of people. Like even right after birth, can't really describe because we're not really in our head space. So that's really interesting to hear

[00:01:09] Kirtan: Yeah. I remember being completely focused and not being able to think of anything else once the contractions got pretty strong. My husband and my mom were trying to rush me out the door to get to the hospital because they sped up so quickly. And I was just like, okay, let me just stop right now because I'm having a contraction.

[00:01:32] Okay. I can walk like another few steps and then I gotta stop again. And they're like, no, you gotta hurry to get in the car. So, but I can remember that, but it doesn't of course feel like a traumatic or painful memory. Now it's just, it's still pretty clear. Yeah. I had a very, quick birth for a first child.

[00:01:57]I'm a preparer. So we prepared a lot. And in order to prepare, we took three different birth classes.

[00:02:07] Lisa: I don't think I even knew that until just recently. Tell us about those.

[00:02:12] Kirtan: I didn't know that people just didn't take as many classes as possible. So we took your class obviously. That was the last one that we took and the most involved, and that was the one that I was most interested in taking.

[00:02:27]But we also took a three-session class with the hospital, which was Mount Sinai East. And I wanted to take that class because I wanted to get familiarized with the hospital. And because I like to go and feel a space before I'm going to go and give birth there. And so we took that class and it was run by a woman who was a doula for many years.

[00:02:54]And it went over a lot of the same things that your class did, but in a more kind of textbook clinical kind of way. There was a lot less time for discussion about specific techniques that would be good for each individual to use. Then we also took a one-session class by the nursing staff. On the maternity floor of that hospital and they did it off-site. I don't remember what their class was called.

[00:03:30] Lisa: And that was also birth-related.

[00:03:32] Kirtan: It was very specific about, okay, you come and this is what happens from the staff point of view. Like we do this because of this, we take you here first. Then we do this. And the reason why we do that is because of these things. And so I wanted to know what the staff was thinking. And it was a very useful class because it wasn't about -- it really wasn't about the parents at all. It was more like this is what's going to happen. And these are the things that people are going to say to you. And. So you can know what these things mean ahead of time. So I found that very helpful. And then we also took an infant CPR first aid class. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, are you glad you did that while you were pregnant?

[00:04:23] Or did you wish you did it on the other side of birth? Because some people prefer one and some people prefer the other, what do you think? I'm glad we did it before, because I don't think there was any room in my head after giving birth for, for about six months.

[00:04:39] Lisa: Fair enough. Yup. I hear that.

[00:04:41] Kirtan: My memory was terrible. Not that it was great right before giving birth, but I was at least getting some sleep. Though I remember Juniper-- in the last month she had the hiccups, like six times a day. And so every time I would lay down to like try to sleep, I feel her hiccupping and that drove me nuts.

[00:05:05] Lisa: I had the same experience. Yeah. Those hiccups are funny and annoying sometimes. Do you happen to remember who you took your infant CPR class with? It's okay if you don't. I know it's been a couple of years.

[00:05:20] Kirtan: I could find that information pretty quickly, but it was with one specific guy but I'd have to find the information.

[00:05:27] Lisa: Okay. Well maybe if it's easily accessible, you can email it to me and I'll include it with the show notes.

[00:05:32] Kirtan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be pretty easy. And he sends out monthly email reminders, that review all of the CPR and first aid steps.

[00:05:42] Lisa: That's nice.

[00:05:43] Kirtan: So if you just open your email and read it. Then you have a little review rather than having to go back to your notes and read them

[00:05:53] Lisa: Which who's going to do, right? I mean, I wouldn't remember to do that until I was in an emergency. And then it's kind of too late.

[00:05:59]And you guys did a cross-country move. Was it, do I have it right, it was soon after she turned one?

[00:06:05] Kirtan: Yeah. She was like 15 months or something and we moved back home to California from New York. So.

[00:06:15] Lisa: Sunny and warm.

[00:06:17] Kirtan: Yeah. Now she's a California girl. She's like forgotten the snow. Totally. So we took all those classes because I like to prepare and I had this notebook, which is actually pretty impressive.

[00:06:33] I think it's in storage right now, but it had every single, Prenatal appointment that I had in there, plus notes who the doctor was that it took the appointment with. I had all the class dates. I had all sorts of like lists of, "these are activities that I'm going to do when I'm in the early stages of labor."

[00:06:57] And like, these are the snacks that I want to have. This is how I'm going to pack my bag for the hospital. These are the things that are going to be in it. These are the things that I want Brendan, my husband, to say to me while I'm in labor and like at different points, and these are the techniques that I want him to try to massage my back or something or do these sorts of things that we tried in class.

[00:07:22] And this is something that we liked, and this is something that we didn't like. And so I had list after list and I had gone over it with him several times being like, okay, this is where you find this information because I'm not going to be able to tell you at the time, like you can turn to this page.

[00:07:38] And I had like a sticky note there and stuff. And of course, my labor was so fast. We didn't get to do any of that.

[00:07:48] Lisa: But better to be prepared. Cause you could have had the 40-hour, you know, multi-day labor. You never know what you're signing up for.

[00:07:55] Kirtan: Right. So I am like a little disappointed that we didn't get to do any of the things I prepared, but of course I, I don't actually wish that I had had a really long labor.

[00:08:07] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:08:08] Kirtan: Although I'm worried about possibly having an even faster one, if we go for a second child,

[00:08:15] Lisa: that's possible, but it's also possible you have a longer one. You never know. So maybe you'll get to use the things in the future that you prepared.

[00:08:23] Kirtan: My mom told me that her labors got faster and faster, so we'll see. So I had my first contractions probably around like 4:15 in the afternoon.

[00:08:35] Lisa: And how many weeks were you?

[00:08:38] Kirtan: I was three days over the due date and I had been sick like for the week and a half before my due date, I had just kind of like an upper respiratory thing. And I was coughing and coughing and I just like, couldn't stop coughing and I felt horrible, but then I really, really wanted to not be pregnant anymore. And I was huge and she was hanging so low. And so anytime I felt remotely okay, I would go on a really long walk. And I remember, I think the day before my contractions started, I walked like five miles. And then the next day, I just spent the entire day on the couch cause I was exhausted.

[00:09:30]I kept telling my mom-- because she was visiting specifically to be there at my daughter's birth-- I kept telling her like, okay, I am sick and I am pregnant. And by the end of this week, I will not be one of these things. I just couldn't stand it anymore. And, so as soon as I started feeling a little bit better, that's when Juniper decided to come.

[00:09:57] So I wasn't over it yet. I was still sick afterwards, but I was feeling a little bit better, had a little more energy. And so I think she's like, okay, let's go. And I started feeling contractions around 4:15 and I wasn't entirely sure. At first, I thought my water had broken because I did feel kind of like a little gush.

[00:10:20]And [I didn't know,] did I pee my pants, but you know, I checked it like smelled my underwear and everything. Like, no, I don't think it's pee. So I called my doctor and she's like, Oh, okay. Well, I, I don't think your water broke because that's a little bit different. I'm like there would be more. then just kind of like a few tablespoons of something all at once.

[00:10:42]But like, why don't you try lying down for maybe like a half hour and then call me and see what changes? And so I laid down for a half hour and then my contractions like definitely started.

[00:10:58] Lisa: And do you remember how they were feeling physically to you? Where were you feeling things?

[00:11:03] Kirtan: They were really irregular. I remember that. And for me, I think she was so low. My contractions felt very low. Like almost all the way down in my pelvis. But I remember it was not, it was not in my back. It was just kind of like along the side of my belly and down into my pelvis. And that's where I felt it. And then I'm like, okay, I know what to do.

[00:11:33] I've prepared. Like I'm gonna make myself a sandwich. So I go and I make myself a big sandwich. So I'm like, I need to eat and have energy because when I go to the hospital, they're not going to let me eat. And so I made myself a sandwich and I ate that. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to go to the bathroom because I really don't want to poop while I'm giving birth.

[00:11:54]And so I went to the bathroom and I was like, yes. Okay. I got it out of the way. Like, no, I'm not gonna poop while I'm giving birth. So then like, okay, I'm going to take a shower. And while I'm getting ready to take a shower, then my water really does break and it's a bloody show and everything. So I'm like, "Oh, that's what it's like."

[00:12:22] Lisa: Did I miss, is Brendan home at this point?

[00:12:24] Kirtan: Yes. Brendan is home. My mom is at her Air BnB nearby. And she, like, we told her, "just stay there. Cause we're going to do all like this early labor stuff here. We've got our plan, but we'll call you when we're going to get ready to go to the hospital so you can come on over and we can go over it together."

[00:12:45] I was like, "okay." But then my water broke. So Brendan calls my mom and she comes over and I'm like, "okay, well, I still have time. I'm going to get in the shower." So I get in the shower and that's when my contractions really start to speed up.

[00:13:04] Lisa: That water breaking can really speed things up. Sometimes. I mean, with the first pregnancy, not always, but especially if it was a big gush, I imagine you started feeling things a lot more strongly. Is that true?

[00:13:15] Kirtan: Yes, that's right. It definitely started feeling things a lot stronger. And Brandon says like, okay, we need to come up with a sign, like a signal that you can tell me when your contraction starts so that I can time it.

[00:13:28] And he's got like the app on his phone, so he's timing it. And he's like, you gotta like whistle or something, but I can't whistle. And so I just started saying the word whistle. Whenever my contractions would start. I just go, "whistle!" And he would start, he'd start the timer. And so they're getting faster and faster, but I'm in the shower.

[00:13:53] And I realized like, okay, this is actually getting pretty difficult for me to move. And so my mom comes over and she's like, " you gotta get to the hospital now. Like there. They're really speeding up. You've got to get to the hospital. We're going to call an Uber."

[00:14:09] Lisa: Did she tell you how long her first labor was? I'm just curious.

[00:14:13] Kirtan: I don't remember how long her first, first one was. I think that, so I'm her second child. There are three of us, three girls, and I think her labor with me was a similar time as mine with Juniper.

[00:14:31] Lisa: Interesting.

[00:14:32] Kirtan: But I do remember her telling me that when she had my younger sister, like, the midwife barely got there in time and she had my sister at home with a midwife and I remember this cause I was four years old. So I actually remember. Being at home, which is in this house actually, parent's house right now. So in this house, in the bedroom over there, my sister was born. And I know that was faster. I don't know how long though.

[00:15:12] Yeah. And so we're, I'm trying to get dressed and yeah. Brendan. And my mom, they're like just trying to like, get me. Wearing something so I can get in the car and it's, it's pretty cold. It was March 6th. And there was actually a snowstorm that day, but luckily it started a little bit later, so we were able to get to the hospital in like 20 minutes.

[00:15:40] It wasn't very far. So the guy comes in the, in the Lyft or Uber or whatever, and luckily, it's one of those kind of bigger, like a big SUV with the two captain's chairs in the middle. And so I'm sitting in one of those captain's chairs, but like on my knees facing the back of the chair, holding the headrest, because I could not stand to be sitting down.

[00:16:08] And I'm pretty sure at this point, I'm like approaching transition. And so this guy, this driver, he was, he was really cool. Really good. because he could've freaked out, you know, there's a woman quite far along and labor in the back of his car unmedicated, like I'm moaning like [moaning sound] and, every once in a while, I just like whispered to Brendan, "whistle." I'm just start moaning and moaning.

[00:16:44] Lisa: Sometimes I wonder if these cabbies, if in their training, if part of the training is staying calm, because more often, almost always. I hear that they're very cool and calm, and even they're like, "God bless! Having a baby is a blessing," kind of thing.

[00:16:59]And I'm so thankful that that's the case because people are pretty concerned going into it, you know, that they're going to freak out.

[00:17:07] Kirtan: You don't want them to like, be like, "Whoa, no!" And just drive away.

[00:17:13] Lisa: So you were finding vocalization helpful at home, too, before you got into the cab or did it start in the cab?

[00:17:21] Kirtan: No, at home too. But it, it definitely ramped up in the cab. And I was trying to, I remember trying to breathe and keep my voice like as low as possible. Which got pretty hard. So we got to the hospital and the first thing is they're supposed to take you to triage. We didn't make it to triage.

[00:17:47] We were in the hallway. And I remember I was standing leaning against the wall and there was a row of chairs, like four or five chairs with women and their partners sitting in them, you know, who were--They looked like they were there for, you know, scheduled C-sections or like to get induced. Like they're just sitting there calmly, but obviously they're about to give birth, but here I am leaning against the wall moaning and I say moaning, but Brendan says, by this point I was screaming. So I don't remember that, but I'm there for maybe 15 minutes. And at some point, I turned my mom and I say, "Why am I still here?" And she goes, "I don't know."

[00:18:45] And she runs off and she gets somebody and she's like, you need to put her in a delivery room now, or she's going to have a baby in the hallway.

[00:18:53] Lisa: Good for her.

[00:18:54] Kirtan: Yeah. So they do, they, they get me into a delivery room and that was great. And at this point I had all of these thoughts like, "Oh, maybe I don't want to be on my back. Maybe I want to be on my side. Maybe I want to be on my knees." But really when it came down to it, I just wanted to be in one position and not move. So I didn't care what that position was. I just wanted to not move.

[00:19:21] Lisa: Sure.

[00:19:23] Kirtan: And so they get me into the bed and they put that, like, I dunno, it's like an elastic band around the monitor.

[00:19:30] I like to put on the monitor to get the baby's heartbeat and they could not find her heartbeat. They're just like going around and around moving and moving and moving. And like, they cannot find her heartbeat. My husband's starting to kind of freak out. And they're doing this for quite a while. And while they're poking me trying to find her heartbeat, this guy comes up, he needs me to sign a form and I'm just completely out of it.

[00:19:59] And so in between contractions, he's like trying to hand me this clipboard with a piece of paper that I have to sign and a pen. And I just kind of flop my hand around in the air and he's holding out this pen that he wants me to then like, grab, reach for and grab, but I'm like, no, no, no. Put it in my fingers.

[00:20:23] Lisa: That was your gesture.

[00:20:24] Kirtan: Put in my hand. So he puts the pen in my hand and I said, put the paper to the pen and he puts the paper right there and I just kind of scribble something, go away now.

[00:20:41] Lisa: And at this point, had they done an internal exam to see how dilated you were?

[00:20:45] Kirtan: No. So I had been walking around for the last two weeks at four centimeters.

[00:20:51] Lisa: Which often means you might have a faster labor because you've already dilated close to active labor. It doesn't always mean that though, they might not necessarily tell you that because they don't want to get your expectations in a certain direction, you know? And you were, what? 80% effaced as well?

[00:21:09] Kirtan: Yes, that's right. And then maybe a week before I had my membranes sweeped. Swept. So yeah, we had all that already taken care of. And so I was pretty far along, I think just before I even started. And so of course my doctor is like on the way.

[00:21:33]And I was, I had been going to an OB/GYN practice that I really loved called Uptown OB/GYN. And there were three female doctors who have all given birth and you meet with all of them throughout your pregnancy. And then one of them, whoever's on call, will be who delivers. And so Lisa, the doctor who ended up delivering, she she's like running to the hospital. She doesn't live far away. She's like, "Oh, okay. She already you're already there? Okay!" Like, cause things had been going really slow at first and then they just really sped up and she didn't expect me to, you know, need her there quite so soon. But I remember they were still trying to find the baby's heartbeat and finally someone suggested like, look lower.

[00:22:33] And so pretty much they had to put the monitor like right up to my vagina and then he found it, cause

[00:22:43] Lisa: She's about to come out.

[00:22:44] Kirtan: Yeah. She was all the way there. And I really liked the nurses that we had at the hospital, because my nurse, she was obviously experienced with unmedicated birth, because I can hear that some of them get kind of rattled.

[00:23:03]But she was very cool and calm and she was talking to me a lot. And she didn't ask me a lot of questions, luckily, because I was not in the frame of mind to be able to answer any questions. But I do remember that she had to talk me through not pushing for a little while because my doctor was just arriving at the hospital.

[00:23:27] She's like, "Okay, she's almost here. Like, don't like, do you want to push?" I'm like, "Uh-huh!" She goes, "Don't push." I was like, "Oh, okay. Like how, how do I, how do I not push?" Like it's happening inside my body already.

[00:23:45] Lisa: Right? Your body's just kind of making you do it. Oh my goodness.

[00:23:50] Kirtan: And so that was the hardest part of the whole thing was these like five minutes, five to 10 minutes of not pushing.

[00:23:59] I remember that. And then my doctor comes and she flies into the room, basically skids to a stop and gets gowned and gloved looks down and is like, "Okay, let's do this." And then I pushed for, I think it was less than half an hour. And I remember at one point. Lisa, she looks down and she goes, I can see her hair.

[00:24:31] Apparently, she like reaches in and like pets her hair. And then

[00:24:38] Lisa: Did she invite you to reach down or Brendan?

[00:24:41] Kirtan: No, no, I don't think so. My mom and Brendan were each holding a leg. So that was helpful.

[00:24:51] Lisa: And what was the environment like? Was Lisa or the nurses or nurse coaching you or how was that looking?

[00:25:00] Kirtan: Lisa, the doctor, she was coaching me, so she was telling me what to do. My mom and Brendan were just trying to support, and trying to offer like, " Pull against me this way, try to do that." Because I remember feeling like there was this kind of hump that I couldn't quite get over that I kept like approaching and then slipping back from. And then Lisa was just like, "Okay, let's just rest, rest for a little bit. Like, don't concentrate on pushing really hard for the next couple of times. Let's build up your energy." And so we did that and that really helped, because pretty much right after that, when we switched, like, okay, this time you're going to give a really, really big push.

[00:25:52] And I did two of those. And then, and then we got over it and then Juniper came out and there she was, and it was, it was crazy. I remember Brendan, he looked down and he just went, there's so much blood. And that was partly because the placenta didn't want to come out on its own. So after a few minutes, she tried to kind of like push down on my stomach to see if she could get it to expel on its own, but it didn't want to come out.

[00:26:33] And so, she had to actually reach in and like gather it all up and pull it out. And that was really not fun.

[00:26:45] Lisa: I would think it was painful?

[00:26:47] Kirtan: Yeah. I mean, it was painful. It felt a lot like the contractions. In terms of, it was just such an odd feeling because when you're having the contractions, there's, you know, this live thing inside of you, that's kind of moving around and doing things. And then, so she had her hands inside of me.

[00:27:07] So there was a thing moving around inside of me again, and I could feel all of that and all the muscles. And so it felt a lot like those contractions again, and it was kind of painful. It was definitely painful.

[00:27:19] Lisa: Was Juniper on your chest during this?

[00:27:22] Kirtan: Yeah, so we had planned on asking for delayed cord clamping.

[00:27:30] But it turned out her umbilical cord was quite short. And so they wouldn't be able to place her on my chest with the umbilical cord still intact. So what my doctor did instead was she like grabbed it and kind of like milked and milked it. Yeah. So she milked the umbilical cord for a few seconds and then she clamped it. And cut it and was able to put the baby on my chest.

[00:28:00] Lisa: And what were you feeling in those moments?

[00:28:04] Kirtan: I was exhausted. I remember just feeling so, so tired and... people were taking pictures and I'm just like, I don't care how I look in these pictures. Like if my eyes are open or closed or half open, like I've got like little bloody handprints all over me, all over my chest,

[00:28:30] Lisa: From the baby, I assume.

[00:28:31] Kirtan: Yeah. And like, I was just so tired. That was the overwhelming feeling. It felt so unreal that there was this thing that was inside of me. And then she was outside of me.

[00:28:55] I don't know. I remember how I felt in the days following, starting to develop kind of my feelings for Juniper, but in the first few hours, all I could think about was how tired I was. Yeah, I was proud of myself and I was proud of Juniper. One of the things I had written down for Brendan to, to, to say to me, like during labor was like, Juniper is working hard, too, you're working really hard and she's working hard too.

[00:29:41] So like think of it as a team effort, you know, it was cause I've always really liked team sports. So thinking of it kind of like a team sport, give me more, more motivation, more drive, more energy to see everything through. Yeah.

[00:30:00] Lisa: Are you saying that it took a while to grow into that feeling of like, this is my baby or am I misinterpreting?

[00:30:09] Kirtan: Hmm.

[00:30:10] Lisa: Cause that's one version of normal that a lot of people don't realize; you don't always feel instantly connected to your baby, or maybe you do. Everybody's different.

[00:30:18] Kirtan: Right. It's almost hard to remember because within a few days I remember feeling so clearly that like I had just given birth to my heart. Right. She she's absolutely my heart.

[00:30:41] And she still is. But also, I remember being in the hospital-- so I stayed two nights. And that's standard for a vaginal delivery. And one of my doctors came and visited me the next day after I gave birth. And she's like, you know, you don't have to stay the second night if you don't want to. And I was like, "Oh no, no, no, no. I want to stay. Please, I need to stay. I'm like, not, I'm not ready to be alone with this baby." And even I wouldn't be alone, because my husband would be there and my mom was staying for several more weeks, but like, I'm not ready to start this relationship right now. Like, I feel like I just need to recover.

[00:31:39]And so--also, I

[00:31:41] Lisa: And were you--

[00:31:41] Kirtan: Oh, go ahead.

[00:31:42] Lisa: Sorry. Were you in a shared room?

[00:31:45] Kirtan: Yes, I was in a shared room. I had a different roommate each night, but, yeah. Being in a shared room was fine. Honestly, you're not getting that much sleep anyways. I didn't really care. Cause you still have to feed the baby, like every two to three hours.

[00:32:06]I remember they left her next to the--so they offered me two options: to either take her to the nursery or to leave her in my room next to the bed. And I was like, well, I would like her to be here next to me. And they're like, "okay, well you have to feed her every three hours." I'm like, "Okay, well, are you gonna come tell me when to do that?"

[00:32:27] And they're like, "no, you can just set an alarm or something." It's like, "Wait, really? Like, doesn't somebody have to supervise me?" And so what I did was I had my husband who was sleeping at home, call me and wake me up. So like, okay, I'll set an alarm on my phone, but I also need you to call me because otherwise, what if I don't wake up?

[00:32:53] You know? So...

[00:32:57] Lisa: I get that because, you know, in an ideal world we'd be like, well, just, you know, go according to the baby's hunger cues. But when you are so exhausted, I get the idea of wanting that minimum accountability of like, well, what if I don't notice the baby's hunger cues because I'm so zonked out, you know? And it's been three hours. Yeah, interesting.

[00:33:18] Kirtan: Yeah. I was exhausted and they wouldn't even let me like stand up on my own because I was pretty shaky. And I remember like, it was quite a while before I was able to pee. And they kept [saying], "Do you want to try to pee?" So I'd go to the bathroom and see if anything would come out, but it wouldn't work.

[00:33:37] And then finally I was able to pee and they put in a little thing, so they can measure how much urine comes out. And so you pee into that, but it's like over the toilet bowl. And I remember when I finally did pee it overflowed, so it's like, I guess you don't need to measure,

[00:33:56] Lisa: You clearly needed to go. Yeah, it can take a while to resume.

[00:34:00] Kirtan: Right. I was like, I know I have to go, but I just can't seem to make it work.

[00:34:05]They only measured like my first two or three pees. But yeah, they gave me a peri bottle and, I used that a lot. I remember once I got home the first few weeks, I was like, I'm just going to pee in the shower. Because that was a lot more comfortable, not having to sit down and also having the water running.

[00:34:26] Lisa: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:34:31] Kirtan: And I had made like those padsicles and stuff. So I remember my sister came, I think...I can't remember; somebody came and visited me while I was still pregnant and helped me make a bunch of padsicles. So those were great. I went through those.

[00:34:49] Lisa: Did you just do water or did you add herbs or anything?

[00:34:54] Kirtan: I think it did witch hazel and maybe chamomile. Maybe a few other things too. I just like looked up on the internet with some good suggestions were. It was like, "Ooh, I like those." And so I did that. Yeah.

[00:35:14] Lisa: Do you remember how long, how many days or a ballpark of how long you used those?

[00:35:22] Kirtan: I use them probably for a couple of weeks. You know, just like every once in a while, it's not like all day long.

[00:35:33] Lisa: Whenever it felt especially sore, maybe?

[00:35:35] Kirtan: Yeah. I had a couple of tears. And so I think that helped a lot. There was still a lot of bleeding afterwards.

[00:35:46] And I had those like big mesh underwear things with the gigantic pads, just, you know, felt like a middle-schooler again, on my first period.

[00:36:04] Lisa: And did they send you home with the sitz bath?

[00:36:07] Kirtan: They did. I didn't actually use it. I think it turned into a bath toy for my daughter.

[00:36:17] Lisa: I haven't heard of that. Hey, I love getting creative with things you have around the house. Right? Why buy toys?

[00:36:24] Kirtan: Exactly. I think some of her favorite bath toys or anything vaguely cup-like, you know, that she can fill with water and pour water out of again, that's a bath toy.

[00:36:38]Yeah, I didn't actually use the sitz bath. Mostly because I found it kind of cumbersome and I just didn't want to deal with it. Yeah. So when I felt like I would've used it is probably when I use the padsicles instead, it's easier. All you have to do is put it in, sit down. Yeah.

[00:37:00] Lisa: Yeah, you don't have to be perpetually sitting on the toilet,

[00:37:03] Kirtan: right.

[00:37:04] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:37:07] Kirtan: Although I find now, and I'm sure many parents of toddlers do this. I spend a little extra time in the bathroom just because I'm pretty much guaranteed to have that space to myself.

[00:37:22] So I'll, I'll bring in my phone. I'll bring in my book. It's like, "why is mommy in the bathroom for 20 minutes?"

[00:37:29] Like, "Oh, has it been that long? Yeah, I guess I'll come out now."

[00:37:34] Lisa: Yeah, expectant parents, listen to that tip. You will be using that one a lot.

[00:37:39] Kirtan: Yes, hide in the bathroom.

[00:37:42] Lisa: Though, when they're itty-bitty. I mean, even at, you know, two-ish, often they do walk in on you and it's even hard to just pee in solitude, but maybe you have the exception to the rule.

[00:37:55] Kirtan: Well, she can't quite open the doors yet. With the door handles, but what she does is she comes up to the door and knocks really loud and just yells "Mama!" It's a bit disruptive.

[00:38:16] Lisa: So how about more on breastfeeding. You were talking about initial breastfeeding in the hospital and setting a timer.

[00:38:23] Kirtan: Yeah. Breastfeeding was intense. I'd say the three major things that I had to deal with were 1) being pregnant; 2) giving birth and 3) breastfeeding.

[00:38:39] The first one was maybe the most surprising because being pregnant was just so -- I hated it. I really hated it. Sometimes I would see women like six, seven months along jogging down the street. And I remember I was like simultaneously wanted to like, give her a high five and punch her in the face.

[00:39:09] You know, like good for you that it's so amazing that you're doing that. And then just being like, Oh my gosh, but why do I feel so crappy? Being pregnant was just not fun for me. And I didn't realize how, how annoying it would be. Then giving birth was just, it was kind of like, you know, it's just a traumatic experience.

[00:39:30] It's all this stuff happening. Really, really close together in this short time period. And for me, especially short, plus it's painful and you're going through a huge transition.

[00:39:46] Then there was breastfeeding and that by far was the most stressful, and the most emotional. And I was completely unprepared for that.

[00:40:00] I mean, I'd heard lots of people talking about breastfeeding and like, you know, sometimes it doesn't work very well or sometimes you need to do this. Sometimes you need to do that and I was like, okay, you know, I can be, I can be mentally ready for all of this. But the first challenge I had was it was really painful. And I didn't know that because a lot of the material that you read or like videos that you watch people talking about, it is like, "Oh, you feel like a tingling sensation where you have your let down." And honestly, for me, my let downs were painful.

[00:40:45] Lisa: Yeah. For some women, it is.

[00:40:46] Kirtan: Almost the entire time.

[00:40:47] Lisa: Oh gosh. I'm sorry to hear that.

[00:40:51] Kirtan: Quite like a cramp. It felt like a muscle cramp and I would be walking down the street and sometimes I just, have a letdown and in the early days, you know, and I would have to like stop walking. [ groan] it's like, "Oh, okay. Just had a letdown." It was very painful. So that was the first part is it was painful.

[00:41:13] It was painful on my nipples. I did bring in, a lactation consultant to see what we were doing at home and then to give us advice maybe after the first week. And that was very helpful, mostly because she suggested the sidelying position, which basically saved my mind, because I was able to sleep while breastfeeding.

[00:41:41]But she had thought like maybe Juniper was not quite tongue tied, but just like had kind of like a short palate or something. And so we're trying all these different techniques of trying to get the nipple, like farther back in her mouth. It's like, "Oh, it's rubbing against the rough part right now, but back there is the soft part." So we got to get it back there. But really, I think over the first two weeks, my nipples just kind of had to toughen up. Because after two weeks it stopped being so painful, on the nipples anyways. And we kind of fell on a routine. And I was like, I felt like I had enough supply to feed every baby on the block.

[00:42:31]And of course later on, I, I just want to punch myself for thinking that. Because once I started having to pump, because I went back to work and we wanted her to go to daycare, I felt like I was scrambling all the time to have enough milk for her. And the number of times I cried about breastfeeding.

[00:42:58] It was probably once a week. Especially after starting the pump. I remember one time my sister was visiting and I was sitting in the kitchen and I just started sobbing and sobbing and she [says], "What's wrong?" And I'm like, "I can't feed my baby. I don't have enough milk. And I just don't have enough time to pump, how am I supposed to pump twice for every feeding session while I'm trying to get stuff done at work? Like I have to pump for 30 minutes every hour and a half, like that's not feasible." And I was just crying and crying and crying about it because like I looked in the freezer and saw how many milk bags were there and I'm like, "It's not enough." And she had to calm me down and like, "Kirtan, you know, if she--if Juniper were not healthy, were not growing, then, you know, we'd be having a conversation about this, but she is fine. Like the pediatrician says, she's fine. She's growing. She's doing really, really well. Like you're doing fine. Like you just have to get through this moment in order to, to see the bigger picture."

[00:44:12] And she was right, but it kept happening over and over again. And whoever said, "there's no use crying over spilled milk,"

[00:44:22] Lisa: They don't know what they're talking about. They've never breastfed. They're never pumped.

[00:44:26] Kirtan: Seriously. I cried over spilled milk a few times and it made me feel better.

[00:44:32] Lisa: Yep, indeed!

[00:44:35] Kirtan: Spilling milk or realizing that you had left some milk out and it had gone bad.

[00:44:40] Lisa: Oh, heartbreaking.

[00:44:40] Kirtan: Just terrible. And I was able to successfully breastfeed Juniper exclusively for almost seven months before she went on solids. And, and I still had all this anxiety and all this stress about it. So I keep thinking, like, it must be so much harder for someone who's actually having supply issues or, you know, more pain or something, you know, different kinds of problems with not being able to breastfeed because it was such this compulsion to feed my baby. And even when she went on solids, like I think because I had breastfed and been her only source of nutrition for almost seven months, I felt personally exclusively responsible for her nutrition, even after I wasn't. And I was sharing that responsibility with my husband. if she wouldn't eat something, I would freak out.

[00:45:55] I was like, "Oh my God. Oh my gosh, she's not eating. I don't know what to do. Like, just start like panicking, almost having a panic attack because she wouldn't eat like two more spoonfuls of oatmeal. It was pretty ridiculous. And now that she's almost two, I realized that just in the last month, am I starting to get over that.

[00:46:22]When we go out to eat at a restaurant, my husband makes sure that I don't sit next to Juniper if there's an option, because I get so stressed out, if she won't eat something, it like ruins the whole dinner for me. And then of course it ruins it for everybody else because I'm acting like such a weirdo. But he's always been more calm about that. Well, it's really saved me a lot of stress. I'm very grateful.

[00:46:50] Lisa: Especially in postpartum when we're breastfeeding and we have all these different hormonal changes that are happening, that parental anxiety can be really real, you know, and the things that we kind of obsess on so many of us.

[00:47:04] So I'm glad you have a supportive partner who was able to support and come up with strategies to help lessen that.

[00:47:11] Kirtan: Definitely. Yeah. He is of the disposition of, you know, always trying to make things easier for me. Trying to be in charge whenever he can be in charge so that I don't have to, or at least I don't have to feel like I have to.

[00:47:30]And the best thing that he ever came up with was our sleeping plan for the first few months, after Juniper was born. So it was maybe a week or two in, and we realized we're not getting maybe a week in. And we realized that we're not getting any sleep because you're on this weird twilight 24-hour schedule.

[00:47:54]So what we did was. We lived in a small two-bedroom apartment in Astoria and we had Juniper sleeping in a Pack 'n Play next to our bed. But what we did was we took the Pack 'n Play and we put it in the living room. And so from 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM, each of us would take one six-hour shift in the bedroom, like sleeping.

[00:48:25] So when it was his shift, he would just be sleeping. Cause I could take care of all of the Juniper stuff on my own in the living room. And when it was my shift to sleep, he would bring her into me when she needed to be fed. He would just kind of like tap me on the shoulder. "Okay, we're gonna, we're going to feed now."

[00:48:49] And so I'd just kind of like pull up my bra and latch her on there and often fall asleep while she was feeding. And then he was like, wake me up. "Okay. Time to switch sides, like rollover." So I'd just roll over, feed the other side, [he's] like, "Okay, we're done." And then he would take her away. So I could really get almost a solid six hours’ worth of sleep each day. And that was huge.

[00:49:20] Lisa: Oh yeah. That's a great strategy.

[00:49:23] Kirtan: Yeah.

[00:49:25] Lisa: And I think you said this, but can you say again how many weeks after birth was this?

[00:49:29] Kirtan: This was maybe after one week.

[00:49:33] Lisa: Was it before or after the lactation consultant had worked with you on learning to feed on your side.

[00:49:39] Kirtan: Just after.

[00:49:41] Lisa: Okay. Yeah. It sounded like you were already doing that. So,

[00:49:43] Kirtan: Yeah. She came in and about one week after Juniper was born and then almost immediately is when we started like our sleeping rotation. And since it was kind of like the middle of the night, when one of us would be awake, but not really want to be up and about the house, doing things, we're trying to be as quiet as possible.

[00:50:01] So the other person can sleep. We just have the TV on really low and with, the Pack 'n Play next to us with like a blanket blocking out the light from the TV. And so she'd be in there cause I mean, newborns, all they do is sleep, poop and eat. So they're just, she's in there. Or she's like laying on the person, and the person's just sitting there on the couch, watching TV. I think I watched like all of The Crown, maybe. I got through a lot of TV shows in the first couple of months. Yeah.

[00:50:49] Lisa: Do you want to share your pumping on a train story?

[00:50:52] Kirtan: Oh gosh. Yeah. Let's see, Juniper started going to daycare at five months. And that's when I started going to work. I worked at a wood shop in Brooklyn. I started going there twice a week, so Juniper was in daycare twice a week.

[00:51:10] And I would go to work twice a week and we got a pump. We got a pump through insurance. And turned out I really didn't like that pump. So we ended up buying another one.

[00:51:24] Did you like the next one you got better? Yeah, I liked it better.

[00:51:29] Lisa: Most of us have a, I was going to say love-hate relationship, but maybe it's hate-hate relationship with our pump, even if it works well.

[00:51:39] Kirtan: I liked it better, but I also just hate that it exists.

[00:51:43] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:51:44] Kirtan: But I, I need it so much. So I don't know. I would go to work and it was like an hour-long commute for me. So it was pretty long. But honestly, I liked that time on the train. I got to just sit down and read and not have to be responsible for anything. So it was really nice. But I was at work and then I'm trying to pump, and I'm working in a wood shop and I didn't want to pump in the bathroom.

[00:52:14] So what I did was we had a lathe room, that was mostly empty during the day. And I would put a sign on the door saying "pumping, go away. " Sometimes I was nicer and I'd say, "Pumping, please knock." But, so I'd sit there in the lathe room and I would pump. It's just like, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't and I'd have my phone and I'd be looking at pictures of Juniper, watching videos of her. One time, I just like Googled "babies crying" and like just listening to sounds of babies, trying to get myself to have a letdown, like massaging my breasts, doing all sorts of things. That would be really weird for somebody to walk in on.

[00:53:04] They wouldn't know what was going on. Sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't. And sometimes I'd get involved in a project or I would be helping somebody and I'd kind of miss my window for being able to pump one last time before heading home to pick up Juniper from daycare. So one time that happened and I didn't have time to pump before I had to head out the door, but I was just desperate to like, get one more pump and see if I could get a few more ounces of milk for one more feed for her at daycare.

[00:53:40] So, this was, I guess it was still pretty cold. Or maybe this was in the fall when she was a little bit older and she has already started solids, but she was still breastfeeding. I just remember that I had a jacket with me, so I sat down on the G train in one of those little double forward-facing seats and I put my bag, my big pumping backpack next to me. I just kind of as stealthily as I could like hooked up the pump to myself underneath my clothes, like with the tubes and everything like leading into the pump in my bag. And I didn't even know that those like low profile under the shirt pumping cups existed at that time.

[00:54:39] So I had these like the regular big ones with like bottles attached and I just draped my jacket over me over the front. And I put my head down. I started to pump, I just tried to put out as many signals as I could like, "Do not approach me, leave me alone. I know this is weird and you're curious what's going on, but just don't talk to me." And the train at one point, it started to get kind of full.

[00:55:16] And I did feel bad that I was taking up two seats, but I'm just like, I can't like there's no, you know, there's hardly room enough for my knees before the next seat. This is not like I could put my giant bag on top of me. But I did, I pumped for like 20 to 30 minutes on the train and then unhooked and I just kind of, I had like a little washcloth that I would carry with me to kind of like wipe myself up and put everything away. And then I put my bag on my lap and put my head down and I was like, don't talk to me about what just happened. So

[00:55:57] Lisa: Parenting gives us some crazy stories that we never thought we'd have to share with people, right?

[00:56:04] Kirtan: That's true. And a lot of them involve poop.

[00:56:07] Lisa: Yes, that is so true as well. Some kind of bodily fluid or solids; bodily output. Oh my goodness.

[00:56:19] Kirtan: I know I'm not the only New York mom to pump on the train.

[00:56:22] Oh no. Yeah. And that makes sense, because you had a deadline to get back to pick her up from daycare. So you really couldn't stay at work any longer.

[00:56:32] I couldn't stay at work and just like pump for 20 minutes and then go. And I honestly, I was probably only the third weirdest thing going on on the G train at that moment.

[00:56:44] Lisa: This is New York after all.

[00:56:45] Kirtan: That's right.

[00:56:47] Lisa: So probably no one even noticed anything.

[00:56:50] Kirtan: People were at least polite enough to pretend not to notice. So you know what, if you have to do it, just do it. It was fine.

[00:57:00] Lisa: Right? Totally.

[00:57:02] Kirtan: But I didn't do it again.

[00:57:05] Lisa: Yeah. It feels a little cumbersome and maybe stressful to have to do that.

[00:57:11] Kirtan: It's just difficult. It's a lot of stuff to maneuver. And then I was worried, like, I'm just going to. I spill this all over myself.

[00:57:18] Lisa: Oh yeah. Oh, that would be awful.

[00:57:22] Kirtan: Yeah. I think actually ended up with three different pumps.

[00:57:27]The free one, which we got, it was a Medela pump. Which I didn't really like. I just couldn't ever get it to work right for me. So I sent it to them to be recycled because they'll recycle it for you if you just like request a label. And then I ended up buying two Spectra pumps, which I liked better; they work better for me. I mean, still not perfect, but nothing works as well as a baby on the boob.

[00:57:56] Lisa: It's very true. Yeah. Yeah, the Spectra seems to be, currently anyway, the favorite among most moms.

[00:58:04] Kirtan: Yeah, I got one of the big portable ones. And then I got one of the really small ones. Which was nice because when we started like going on trips or something like that, I didn't want to pack a huge pump. The small one, it's not as powerful though. It doesn't work quite as well, but it's still worth it to, to save in poundage, like on my back carrying every day. So, I don't know. I lived by my accessories for awhile.

[00:58:46] I'm hoping soon that we'll be able to get rid of the diaper bag.

[00:58:49] Lisa: I have a question. If you were to do it all over again, or if you do it a second time; in terms of your breastfeeding journey and the challenges that you faced, what would you do differently, if anything?

[00:59:04] Kirtan: I think I would just try to adjust my expectations. It felt, so immediate, so dire, it was like having teenager emotions again. If you remember being a teenager, it felt like every moment was life or death. Like, "Oh my gosh, if I don't get to go over to my friend's house right now, my social life is over. I hate my parents. Ah, this is terrible." And everything was like that.

[00:59:30] I haven't felt that for so long until breastfeeding, until having a baby where I'm like, if I'm not able to feed her right this moment, this specific amount of milk, then like she's going to just die. And if she doesn't eat this, you know, this navy bean or like, then she's not going to have all the nutrition that she needs and she's going to be malnourished.

[01:00:00] And she'd like it just this crazy rabbit hole. So I think successfully going through it just -- successfully, just meaning like surviving-- So I think successfully going through it once before and having a child who is healthy and growing, I'm hoping will remind me that not every feeding is life or death.

[01:00:33]What helped me a lot with Juniper once she went on solids was something somebody told me was to try to think of her nutrition in terms of one week. You know, what has she eaten all week? Not what is she eating today or what is she eating this meal? Because I was stressed out so much about each meal or each breastfeeding that I wasn't looking at the bigger picture.

[01:01:03]And it was hard to remind myself it was hard to believe that everything would be okay. So just trying to remind myself that it's okay if things aren't going well a hundred percent of the time. That doesn't mean that everything's going to crap. Sometimes you're just having a bad day and that, you know, the rest of the week could be okay.

[01:01:36] The rest of the year could be okay. That it's okay to have one bad day or one bad feeding. And also to remember that there are options. Even if I never considered other mothers who weren't able to breastfeed failures or anything like that, it was still really hard not to think of it in those terms for myself.

[01:02:02]Because you know, we're always much harder on ourselves than we are on others. And so I needed to adjust my mindset and remember that nobody's going to think I'm a failure if I can't do this. It's really just myself and the pressure that I'm putting on myself. Because everybody around me was completely supportive. Nobody had these crazy expectations that I did for myself. So if I can get this through my head, just by repeating it to myself over and over and over again, then maybe the second time it'll be easier. Who knows?

[01:02:58] Lisa: Thank you so much for sharing that. Well, is there anything, before we wrap things up that you haven't gotten to share that you wanted to share, or do you have any reflections or insights or tips for expectant parents who might be listening?

[01:03:14] Kirtan: Well, we went through my biggest tip, which was the sleeping schedule. That was absolutely key. And I was really lucky to have my husband who had 12 weeks of parental leave.

[01:03:30] Lisa: That's fabulous and rare, all too rare.

[01:03:34] Kirtan: Definitely. And he was able to also not take it all at once. So he did four weeks upfront, when she was born and then he did the rest of it, like part-time. So he was able to really stretch it out and to spend a lot of time at home, but also like go in and spend a few days at the office.

[01:04:00]So that was fantastic. But having that sleeping schedule meant that both of us -- he was able to sleep enough to go to work. And I was able to sleep enough to not feel like a zombie all day long.

[01:04:17] Lisa: That's huge.

[01:04:19] Kirtan: Yeah.

[01:04:20] Lisa: Where did you guys get that idea or did one of you just come up with that idea?

[01:04:24] Kirtan: I don't know; he came up with it. I'm not sure how he came up with it. But I think he just was like, "This is not working. So let's fix this." And I'm so thankful that he did, because if you talk to any new parent, six hours of sleep, they're like, "What's that?" What's four hours of sleep. I don't know what you're talking about.

[01:04:51] Lisa: Yeah.

[01:04:53] Kirtan: And then also I wish I had realized, before, when I was trying to plan my life with a newborn and how breastfeeding was going to go, that it takes forever for them to breastfeed, it takes like 45 minutes and also adds, a little bit of, I don't know what it was. It's not quite reflux, but the pediatrician recommended that we hold her upright for 15 minutes after each side.

[01:05:28] So that means she's on one boob for like 15 minutes. Then we have to hold her up right for 15 and she's on the next boob, then we have to hold her for 15. So the whole process took an hour. And then by the time you're done with that, you change her diaper. She sleeps for 20 minutes and then you're breastfeeding again. So I didn't realize how long it took.

[01:05:55] Lisa: Yeah. It's so challenging. So many of us feel like forget birth; breastfeeding's the hard thing because it lasts much longer.

[01:06:03] Kirtan: Yeah, now I know. And for some people, I mean, they keep going for a really long time. And for me, I kept breastfeeding for 13 months. And we were, you know, by that time we were down to like one feeding a day, but one day Juniper just was like, no, I'm done. And I, that was really emotional for me. I was waiting for it. I was like, okay.

[01:06:31] You know, I'm mentally trying to prepare for doing this until she's like two or something. But she stopped just after a year. And I was like, "Oh man, I just, I feel like I've just been emotionally cut off, like, okay, this is intense. I gotta, I gotta sit and think about this for a while." Even though it was so stressful and I really didn't like it that much.

[01:06:56]when it was over, it was, it was kind of wrenching. Yeah, but you know, I mean, I don't miss it now.

[01:07:09] Lisa: Yeah. It can feel emotional at first when they're weaning.

[01:07:12] Kirtan: Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of strange. I wish I had seen cause I'm a visual learner. So I wish I had seen a schedule of like what a day with a newborn looks like.

[01:07:32] And all there needs to be is like three different colored blocks that just repeat over and over again. You know, one for breastfeeding, one for in changing diapers, one for sleeping. So I think something like that maybe would have stuck in my head so I could have gone back to that mental picture.

[01:07:55] I'd been like, Oh, okay. This is what it's like. Right. I can remember that the largest chunk really is like feeding.

[01:08:07] I mean, it is so hard and it's so weird and monotonous, but it's also, it was such a great bonding experience because we were just at home all the time, this little unit, we were just like all together all the time. And that's, that's so rare now. Hm. Yeah. My daughter, she's so happy whenever she gets to play with both mama and daddy, you can see it on her face.

[01:08:40] She's just ecstatic. Whenever we're both playing with her at the same time, because it's now usually if one of us is playing with her, the other one's making dinner. Yeah. So there are always chores to get done, but in that newborn twilight stage, it's just all this very closed, tight little circle that just repeats over and over again.

[01:09:11] Lisa: Thank you so much for sharing all of this, Kirtan. It's been lovely hearing all your reflections. One of my favorite things that you said was, was saying that she is your heart. And so that was beautiful.

[01:09:25] Kirtan: She is. And it's so strange because I thought, well, if I just gave birth to my heart, how am I going to ever have another one, which was always my plan. And I realized that it grew back.

[01:09:41] Lisa: Yeah. There's room.

[01:09:45] Kirtan: Yeah.

[01:09:47] Lisa: Awesome. Thank you so much. Happy birthday and happy becoming parent second anniversary here soon. Give Brendan my best and enjoy that sunny weather in California. I'm jealous here in the winter in New York.

[01:10:02] Kirtan: I mean, I do miss the winter, but it's pretty hard to complain about the Southern California weather. Yeah.

[01:10:10] Lisa: All right. Well, I hope you'll keep in touch. Thanks again.

[01:10:14] Kirtan: Thank you. Bye.