Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 115 - Chiropractic to Avoid a Cesarean with Transverse 2nd Baby

Tracy’s second pregnancy surprises her by being much more challenging than the first. Toward the end of pregnancy, baby #2 is persistently transverse (or sideways) and her OB recommends manually turning the baby. Tracy isn’t fond of that idea, so she does some research and goes to a chiropractor who specializes in helping with this using the Webster technique. Baby successfully flips and Tracy’s able to have the vaginal birth she wanted. However, she needs to put the self-advocacy skills she learned in birth class to good use when the hospital staff starts pressuring her for interventions she didn’t want due to holiday overcrowding and not due to medical necessity.

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Episode Topics:

1. **Introduction of Tracy**

   - Tracy introduced as a former birth class student and the guest on the episode.

2. **Living in Flushing, Queens**

   - Tracy shares her background and family details.

3. **Motherhood Journey**

   - Discussion about Tracy's two boys, one three years old and the other four months old.

4. **Experiences with Newborn and Sleep Deprivation**

   - Challenges of sleep regression and differences in sleep patterns between her first and second baby.

5. **Transition from One to Two Children**

   - The added challenges and exhaustion of managing two children.

6. **First Vs. Second Pregnancy Experiences**

   - Comparisons between an easy first pregnancy and a challenging second pregnancy.

7. **Morning Sickness Misconceptions**

   - Tracy's experience with morning sickness occurring at night and how it differed from expectations.

8. **Acid Reflux and Heartburn in Pregnancy**

   - Challenges faced during her second trimester including suffering from acid reflux due to the baby’s position.

9. **Baby in Transverse Position**

   - Finding out through an anatomy scan that the baby was in a transverse position and staying in that position during follow-up scans.

10. **External Cephalic Version (ECV)**

    - Tracy’s experience researching and considering ECV to turn the baby and her decision against it based on potential risks.

11. **Discovering the Webster Technique**

    - Tracy’s experience with the Webster technique performed by a chiropractor and its success in turning the baby head down.

12. **Dr. Mac and Chiropractic Sessions**

    - Details about the chiropractic sessions that helped to align her pelvic area, and the impact it had on her comfort and baby’s position.

13. **Group B Strep and Labor Onset**

    - Tracy testing positive for group B strep and her experience with labor starting and water breaking.

14. **Nutritional Needs in Labor**

    - Tracy’s desire to eat before going to the hospital and her subsequent experience with hospital food restrictions during labor.

15. **Hospital Experience and Wait Times**

    - Tracy’s experience of laboring in a packed hospital and delays in getting a room.

16. **Pressure to Induce Labor**

    - Tracy’s interaction with hospital staff about the use of Cytotec and Pitocin to speed up labor and her efforts to delay this intervention.

17. **Epidural Decision Process**

    - The timing and decision to get an epidural before administering Pitocin, drawing from experiences in her first birth.

18. **Rapid Labor Progression**

    - Description of how fast labor progressed after getting Pitocin and giving birth within five hours.

19. **Hospital Staff Communication/Bedside Manner**

    - Details about the poor communication and dismissive treatment by one of the nurses during labor.

20. **Delivery and Immediate Post-Birth Experience**

    - The second baby's birth being smoother with a few pushes and the baby being placed on Tracy’s chest right after birth.

21. **Comparing Post-Birth Feelings**

    - Differences in emotional responses immediately after the first and second births, highlighting the anxiety and detachment during the first versus being more present during the second.

22. **Advice to Expectant Mothers/Parents**

    - Encouraging mothers/parents to do their own research, whether using medical journals, social media, forums, or podcasts, rather than relying solely on doctors' opinions.

23. **Role of Doulas**

    - The significance of having a doula to advocate for the mother’s/birthing parent’s wishes during labor and delivery.

24. **Navigating Medical Advice**

    - Tracy’s advice on balancing medical advice with personal research and trusting one’s own instincts and wisdom during pregnancy and labor.

25. **Mental and Emotional Support**

    - Tracy sharing how talking to the baby and letting go of the burden of control helped her during pregnancy and childbirth.

26. **Final Thoughts and Reflections**

    - Emphasizing that each pregnancy and birth experience is unique and should be approached with flexibility and an open mind.

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today I have a former birth class student with me, Tracy. Hi Tracy. Welcome to the show.

Tracy: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Lisa: So Tracy is coming on the show to share her second baby's birth story, mostly, and some things about how the pregnancy went. Could you first please just introduce yourself a little bit? Let us know who you are, maybe the area you live in, how long ago you gave birth to both of your little ones.

Living in Flushing, Queens

Tracy: Yeah. My name is Tracy. I live in Flushing, Queens. I have two boys. My older boy, his name is Tyson. He was born three years ago, a week before New York City shut down, and my second son was born in December, mid-December. So he is about four months now. 

Lisa: Yeah. So you're still in the throes of it. You were sharing with me before we hit record that you're pretty tired, understandably.

Motherhood and Newborn Experience

Tracy: Yeah. I mean, it's sleep deprivation at its height. I mean, I think with a newborn it's a little bit different because they fall right back asleep. As we're nearing the four month sleep regression now it's taking a lot more to wrangle him in and settle him down.

It's a lot different than my first born, for sure.

Transition from One to Two Children

Lisa: Yeah. And you were sharing how challenging it is to transition into life with two, and juggling two little ones.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. I think so much of the emphasis is on going from no kids to one kid and how, it's such a magical experience and it's also, you know, tiring. But then I think that there's not a whole lot of preparation that you hear about going from one kid to two kids, because I think that's what hit me really hard.

The fact that you can't just hand them off to somebody, your partner or whoever and just say okay, I'm gonna go take a nap now. Like with two kids, you're just on all the time. And I think maybe logically I knew that, but I just wasn't really truly prepared in my day to day and how exactly exhausting that was gonna be. And how split your attention is.

Lisa: Yeah, there's this constant tension. I know that as a mom of two and I feel you. 

Tracy: Yeah.

First vs. Second Pregnancy Experiences

Lisa: So why don't we start with wherever you'd like to start in your second pregnancy and as you wanna work in your first experience giving birth, if you wanna say anything about that, feel free to do that.

But I'm especially interested to hear about your second pregnancy, and I understand that your baby was not in the most ideal position toward the end of pregnancy.

Tracy: Yeah. To just give you some context, I really feel like with my second pregnancy, it's so weird because it feels like I was pregnant for the first time. With my first pregnancy, I feel like I could have ended up on the show "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant." Like I was completely unaware until closer to the end of my first trimester. 

Lisa: Oh really? 

Tracy: And yeah, I did not feel anything. And throughout the entire pregnancy it was smooth sailing, like as textbook as it can get. I felt like pregnancy is not a big deal. Like what, it's not really uncomfortable, I felt totally fine. I felt like my normal self. With my second, however, it was just, as many things that are uncomfortable and that can go sideways during the pregnancy, I feel like I have experienced it. 

Morning Sickness Misconceptions

During my second pregnancy, I had morning sickness, which I didn't know didn't just happen in the morning, cuz for me it happened at night, like mostly at night. And so I was just like, what is happening to me? I thought it only happened in the morning.

Lisa: It's such a misnomer. It totally is a misnomer because most people, yeah, it can be all around the clock, anytime.

Tracy: I know. And for me, it only happened at night. So I was just like, what is happening with me right now? And so that happened in the first trimester. Second trimester, I had just had really terrible acid reflux, really bad heartburn. And the reason for this is because of the position that he was in. He, at my 20 week anatomy scan, he was in the transverse position, literally on my stomach and like all my digestive organs. And I was just having the worst time. And people say your second trimester is where you go on a baby moon or you're feeling great. I just felt terrible starting from that point on because then he was really starting to pack on the weight and that weight then, in turn, put itself on me, and on all my organs.

Acid Reflux and Heartburn in Pregnancy

And I actually had a trip to the ER because at the same time that that ER trip happened, I tested positive for Covid. So I thought I was short of breath because of Covid. So I ended up in the ER. Turns out it wasn't because I was short of breath, it was because my acid reflux was just so bad. Like he was just sitting just in the right position where I like, could not catch my breath.

 And I'm a pretty small framed person, so there's not a whole lot of room he has to begin with. And so I think, that, yeah, that, that trip to the ER was just now thinking back on it, it's just like, wow.

When you're pregnant, like all sorts of things can happen and you wind up at the ER because you're short of breath. Like, what? A baby can do this much damage?

Lisa: Yeah, and especially as early as 20 weeks, you wouldn't think that the baby's big enough to be causing mayhem like that.

Baby in Transverse Position

Tracy: No. Oh no. And the entire time he was measuring way bigger than his brother was to begin with. And so we thought he was gonna be like a nine pounder. But, I think it's also just a combination of things. It was his position, his weight, so all of that. So that was one of the first problems I ran into, because of his transverse position. 

And then, at that point on, my OB had me monitored, through ultrasound, every four weeks from there. And each time, he was still in the transverse position, totally comfortable, not looking like he was gonna move anytime soon.

External Cephalic Version (ECV)

And by 35 weeks, my doctor was like, listen, you really should be starting to kind of, considering whether or not you wanna get an ECV. And so I don't remember what an ECV stands for exactly, but it's that procedure. 

Lisa: I can say, yeah, it's an external cephalic version.

Tracy: An attempt to manually move the baby into a better position. Yeah. I really forewarn anybody to not Google it or to not YouTube it, actually. Don't YouTube it. Because I made that mistake and it was terrifying but.

Lisa: Oh, no. Good warning, good warning.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. They're literally manhandling your pregnant belly to force the baby to turn. And that kind of just threw me way off. And my OB kind of just nonchalantly says oh, oh, you should really be considering getting an ECV. And I'm like, what does that entail? And they're like, yeah, so we're gonna, give you some muscle relaxers to relax your uterine muscles and then just turn the baby. And at that point, you have to be in the hospital because if the baby is under stress, then we're just gonna pop you into the surgical room and get you an emergency c-section. Nonchalant, like, oh, we're just gonna pop over to the pizza store and grab a slice.

Lisa: Yeah, because they're trained surgeons, so it's like, oh, this is easy for me because this is my specialty. That's often the thinking. And that makes sense from that perspective, but if that's not what you're wanting, that's like no thank you. 

Tracy: Like that's normal. Yeah. It's not normal people thinking.

So I was just terrified. And then, I went down this Google hole and I was like on, I was on Reddit forums, I was on Facebook forums, I was on medical journals. I was like, I went deep into this Google hole and I learned, 

Lisa: I'm glad to hear the medical journal part. There was at least some like studies or evidence-based stuff you were looking at.

Tracy: Yeah, I didn't just base my findings on one single Wikipedia page or that one Facebook friend that you're like, oh my gosh. What Sharon says is totally law. No, so I really went deep here and what I found was that it is so incredibly risky. I mean, I think the success rate is only at 60%, and if you think about that, it's close to 50%. I mean, I'm no math whiz, but it doesn't seem like your chances are great there. 

Lisa: Yeah. And I will point out that some providers have much higher efficacy rates than others. And if someone's considering this, they could have a conversation with their provider about, do you know how frequently is this effective? Whether or not they'll have a statistic, I can't promise. But I definitely know that some of them are much more expert at it and have much higher, some of them have like 85% success rates, but it just depends on the provider.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the way my OB said it, she was like, oh, yeah, we have about a 60% success rate, which is better than zero. So there you go. 

Lisa: Sure. 

Tracy: I'm like, hmm.

Lisa: Too close to 50% for you. 

Tracy: Still not sure. Yeah. Still not sure that's worth the risk. 

But, the more research I did, the more I was like, that's not a great success rate, and do I really wanna be putting baby under that much stress, only to maybe have him flip back around. Because, through, again, this hole that I was in, in a lot of the Facebook groups that I looked up, a lot of people who have gone through and gotten an ECV, baby ended up turning right back around or, the procedure wasn't a success. And since they were already under a spinal tap, they were like, all right, since we already have the OR booked, let's just get you a C-section. Because, we don't know if baby is going to be under stress or continue to be under stress after this. and since we already have the OR booked. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Tracy: Let's not waste it. 

Lisa: Yeah. I'll just point out, just to clarify that most of the time, an epidural is offered and even often recommended for this procedure because it can be so aggressive and really painful for the parent. Not just baby, but the parent. That's what you're talking about. We're already set up with an epidural, then we can easily move to the OR if needed, because then we'll already have numbness for that.

Tracy: Yeah, yeah. And then so it's just like they force your hand there too, to deliver prematurely and not have the birthing experience that you want. I just felt like all those things considered, it just felt like a lot for this big 60% success rate.

Discovering the Webster Technique

And through that I also found the Webster technique, which is done through a chiropractor. And I found the ICPA website, which gives you a directory of all chiropractors, I think, in the nation that are certified in the Webster technique.

And what that does is, and I had no prior knowledge of anything a chiropractor does. I just thought they were like really intense massages, but in fact I'm very wrong. But the Webster technique specifically focuses on certain points in your spine and your tailbone that kind of realign your pelvic positioning, to better give that space to baby to turn around.

Dr. Mac and Chiropractic Sessions

And so I saw Dr. Mac in Floral Park Queens, and he was just amazing. He is just so patient and he really takes time to explain everything to you. And I saw him at 35 weeks and I'm like, help me because I do not wanna get an ECV, I don't want a c-section, what can I do? Am I, can I be saved?

And he took a look at our first consultation and he's like, well, there are about five things of criteria that allow for us to apply the Webster technique. You fill out all five. So we gotta get started right away. I want you to come see me twice a week until the due date. And so at that point, I saw him twice a week every week, and five days before my scheduled C-section, the baby finally turned. And I was just amazed. I was amazed at the timing of it and just how it worked. I just had no idea, anything about the chiropractic world and how effective it is, in this like much less intense, less, stressful technique that they can use.

And just the timing of it too, five days before my scheduled C-section. So they actually push you to schedule a C-section so that you have the OR booked. 

And so I had to have that scheduled C-section. I had already gone through pre-surgical testing, and we were getting close. And so when he finally turned, I could have kissed Dr. Mac. I was just like– 

Lisa: Sure. 

Tracy: I mean, it was just amazing. It was just an amazing feeling.

Lisa: Would you mind sharing maybe a few details about what the sessions were like? My understanding is it's not, usually a lot of people associate chiropractors with like aggressive cracking and stuff but my understanding of Webster is that it's usually much gentler technique.

They're absolutely not manually turning the baby, just trying to optimize, and think you touched on this little bit, but try to optimize your body and your alignment to make space for baby to flip head down. But what were the sessions like?

Tracy: Yeah. First of all, there's definitely no cracking at all involved. Even with non-pregnant patients, because Dr. Mac, his office is a very open space type of layout. And so you're just divided by this, it's almost like a half, semi wall type of deal.

And I heard him with other patients and there was no cracking. Like he's very, he's just a very gentle guy. He looks like Santa Claus. But anyways, so my sessions with him, so you go in, there's this donut shaped pillow for your belly, and you put your belly in the hole and then you lie face down. And he focuses on, specifically, the pelvic area. So like we're talking tailbone and like the bone that your, I guess your butt is. I don't, like the two bones that your buttocks sit on.

Lisa: Sit bones. 

Tracy: I don't even, yeah, yeah. 

Lisa: Sit bones. Or sits bones. You'll also hear. 

Tracy: Yeah. So yeah, so he focuses on that entire area and the hips. So your belly is in this hole, and then the table is a little bit risen. It's like on a riser. And then he presses down really hard. It doesn't hurt at all. He presses down really hard just so that the table then moves back down. I think that's how he knows that that's hard enough. He doesn't need to go harder. If he's pressing down too lightly, he knows he needs to go harder. I think it's just a measure for him to know how hard to press. And so he presses down on those certain areas.

I mean, the whole session takes 10, 15 minutes max. And so I went twice a week and after the first week, I already felt a difference. I just felt my entire pelvic region so much lighter. And I think it's because baby was in the transverse position for so long, I felt very top heavy.

And so that was a lot of weight for like my lower back to hold myself up basically. And so I was feeling a ton of pain in my lower back. Every time I'd walk, take the stairs, I really felt like shooting pain. And so after that first week, it was just so much lighter and I could walk comfortably. And among the homework that he gave me, was to go home home and continue Spinning Babies exercises, and walk.

He was like, you gotta walk two miles every day. I don't know if I hit two miles every day, but I certainly walked as much as I could around the neighborhood with my older son. And the yoga ball, which I learned from your class, is just the gift that keeps giving. It can be used as an exercise ball and as like just pelvic exercises during pregnancy.

And that was extremely helpful. Cuz Dr. Mac had suggested maybe try hula hoops or maybe just try standing up and pretending you have a hula hoop. Basically you want to have your pelvic area move in that round motion. And so I found that sitting on the yoga ball, doing those exercises while watching a Netflix show was perfect.

It was just perfect. You don't even think about it. 

Lisa: Yeah. And as you're saying this, I'm sitting on a ball, and I found myself like doing the circles, as you were saying that.

Tracy: Yeah. 

Lisa: Even not being pregnant, it feels so much better cuz just sitting still, many of us sit so much of the day and we get so tight, we get achy, especially when we're pregnant. So I love these tips for listeners.

Tracy: Yeah. 

Lisa: Love that your chiropractor knew to give a Spinning Babies resource. 

Tracy: Yes. 

Lisa: Which I'll of course link in the show notes. And the yoga ball tip, the walking, these all make a huge difference.

Tracy: Yeah. 

Lisa: One thing I just wanna point out, or maybe sort of, theoretically observe, is when you were describing where he was touching and impressing, it sounded like, on the sits bone area, everything's connected, and there are these different ligaments and things that region that often get tight in pregnancy, and so often, loosening some of that region and ligaments and things can make a huge difference.

We often, there's this sacrotuberous ligament, one of the things that often needs loosening so that the tailbone can move out of the way to make room for baby to come head down or come down into the pelvis in labor. So that's so fascinating. Love those details. 

Tracy: Yeah. It's so interesting. I would love to hear you talk to him, as well. That would so interesting, but- 

Lisa: I have reached out to him because when you brought him onto my radar, I could not believe I hadn't heard of him or met him yet. I'm working on connecting with him, sure. for sure.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah, so the way he described it to me, and he's so good at explaining these things, the way he had described it to me at our first consultation is that your body is if you just think of two ropes going down both sides of your body, what happens when you're, I mean, this is not a medical term, but when you're out of whack, like what happens is you end up having knots along one side on one rope and maybe not the other.

And so your pelvic bone is sideways, or it's crooked. 

Lisa: Tilted. 

Tracy: Yeah, tilted. Yeah. So his work is to press and work out those knots so that both ropes are straight again. And so one of the first things he does at the first consultation is have me lie on my back and reach out, reach both hands up.

And at my first consultation, my hands were not on the same level. It was like totally crooked. Like one hand was shorter than the other. And so that's how he knew, like visibly, and that he could show me visibly that I had a lot of work that needed to be done. And what's interesting also is that he said, cuz I asked him, I was like, how did I get here?

I know my posture isn't great, but what could I have done differently? And he's like, no, I've been seeing so many patients because of the pandemic and because of working at home, people don't notice their posture anymore. They're working with their laptops in all sorts of crazy positions. And just get into the habit of it and your body adjusts to that and you don't feel it, you don't feel it anymore until it starts to become painful. And he's been seeing a lot of patients because of that.

And for me, I work remotely from home, a hundred percent. And especially, now thinking back on it, nursing my first son for 13 months, exclusively nursing in all sorts of terrible for me positions. When you're nursing, I think, you can lie down, you can sit up, you can be half lying down, you can be curled up, you can be in all sorts of weird positions and the heavier that baby gets, if you think about it, you're holding this like 20 pound sack of flour.

And like all that weight is just not evenly distributed whatsoever. And you feel that in your neck, your lower back. And I think as moms we just learned to live with the pain and uncomfortableness. Hey, we're not dying. Okay, let's go, let's move on. Let's go on with our day. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. Who's got the additional time and energy?

Tracy: Exactly. 

Lisa: Yeah, that's tough. And then on top of the things you're talking about, these repetitive movements and sitting too much of that, awkwardly working on our laptops, and awkwardly breastfeeding, there's such a connection between the fight or flight response and the stress response, our psoas, which is intricately woven into our pelvis, and then that can get tight whenever we're stressed out, which, everybody's been more stressed out than ever in the past three years, I feel like. 

Tracy: Mm-hmm, 

Lisa: So there's that component as well.

Chiropractors are so amazing at addressing all that and really helping our whole neurological system calm down and bringing us a greater state, not only of alignment, but relaxation, with regard to the whole vagus nerve and the vagal system. 

Tracy: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what's also great about Dr. Mac is he also focused a lot on getting me in a better mental state as well. He was like, and I love the way he phrases this, and I don't know if it's like exactly what he said, but at our first consultation, he was like, the work that I'm gonna be doing is focusing on the passenger, the passageway, and the mind. So what I can do is the mind, what he can do is the passageway and what we need to focus on together is the baby. 

And like he really encouraged me and my husband to talk to the baby every night. And he was like, I know this is gonna sound crazy. And I know it sounds way out there, you're gonna think I'm some sort of hippie, but I swear to you there are actual research studies out there that prove if you talk to your baby, you will start to see things move.

So it's very awkward for me. 

Cause that's just not something I, I'm not a very sentimental person to begin with. And for me, I was just like, who's got the time for that? Is this really doing anything? But, my husband was much more on board with it than I was, and he was like, all right, yeah, let's start, sure, let's give it a try. So every night we just, maybe joked around with the baby a little bit too. It doesn't have to be like, oh my gosh, sweet baby, you're doing such a great job. Please turn, please. 

Lisa: It could be reading anything or saying anything.

Tracy: Yeah, it would just be me and my husband having a conversation and kind of including the baby and being like, what do you think about that? Or how about when you get here, you can decide what color you want, or this and that. 

Lisa: Love it. 

Tracy: I don't think it needs to be like all lovey dovey. 

I think just the way you talk to your baby looks however you want it to look. And we tried that. I, and I really followed Dr. Mac's homework, because I really wanted this to work, and I really do feel like it did help, with the stress and with kind of just letting go of the accountability of it.

Because I think the moment you're pregnant, you feel totally a hundred percent responsible for this tiny human that's growing inside of you. And a lot of times complications happen and it is out of your control. It is not something that you could have done differently. And so I think for me, I easily spiral into, oh, oh, it's my posture. Maybe I should have worked differently. Maybe I should be watching what I do, how I walk, how I sit, how I eat. Like maybe it's my fault that he's transverse, And so I think talking to your baby, really, that important aspect of letting go of it being your fault or your responsibility, it helps tremendously. Because then you start to see this baby as okay, they are like about fully cooked at this point, and they have their own mind and they're gonna do what they wanna do. So you just need to let it go.

So, that part really surprised me as well.

Lisa: I love this, this is so great. I totally agree with you, and that really resonates.

Awesome. Is there anything else that you wanted to detail or share about pregnancy, including chiropractic or anything else before you go into your birth story?

Tracy: Yeah. No, I mean, I would just say, I think when you're pregnant and, like myself, I had always grown up, with my immigrant parents telling me how revered doctors are and how they're so knowledgeable and wise and they've gone to 15 years of school, they know exactly what they're talking about. And you have to listen to everything they do and say. And I think while all that may be true, I think that in our generation and our world right now where you have this multitude of information at your fingertips, I would encourage everyone to do their own research.

And I'm not talking about sharing from that Facebook group. I'm talking about really doing your own research in the variety and diversity of ways that are out there, whether it's a doctor doing an ask me anything on Reddit, whether it's medical journals or, other people who have gone through the same procedure or the same exact situation that you're in. This podcast, do your research, find information because I swear it's out there.

And come to the conclusion on your own of how you wanna take your own pregnancy and your own approach to things into your own hands. 

Lisa: Excellent, wise is words. Thank you.

And something that came up for me when you were sharing that, about your immigrant parents and, Doctor knows best, I was, we were having a workshop with our doula collective mentorship recently, and one of the people participating in the program, she's a newer doula, but she has been a nurse in hospitals for, over a decade, I believe, long, long time. And she was sharing how, traditionally, many years ago, and in cultures, healers were healers because they were really excellent at what they do. 

But in our country, doctors can become doctors. They get accepted into medical school. Almost exclusively based on their scores and their grades. Not because they're necessarily gonna have a great bedside manner or actually be good at what they do. And I was like, oh, that's a good one. That's really good to sit with that idea. 

And that is only one of many reasons that our US maternal healthcare system is ranking at the bottom of the developed nations and its outcomes for birthing mothers and parents and this overtrust of surgery and technology interventions is another reason. 

Tracy: Absolutely.

Lisa: And good for you for doing, if you didn't want a potentially unnecessary surgical birth, good for you for doing the research. Like you're saying, like you're encouraging people to do, to seek out other ways to less aggressive ways, less risky ways to help encourage your little one to turn down with that goal of a healthier, the healthiest possible, and the closer to the kind of birth that you were looking for.

Tracy: Yeah, I mean, and don't get me wrong, like I don't have anything against the C-section. I just wanted to make sure that I exhausted all efforts. Like I could have, I did everything I could have in my power to turn this baby around and hey, at the end of the day, if he didn't, he never turned around. He, if he continued to lie transverse or breech, like I would've been fine with a C-section because I had at least tried.

Lisa: It would be necessary.

Yeah. Yeah. We're glad we have cesareans when it's absolutely necessary, but given that it's major surgery we don't wanna do it unless we really have to. Yeah.

Great. Thank you for those wise words. Appreciate that. Alright. So feel free to jump into your birth story wherever you wanna start. In the last, you said the baby turned five days before, I believe, your scheduled C-section. 

Group B Strep and Labor Onset

Tracy: Yeah, so I was scheduled for a C-section at 39 weeks and I think four days, five days. And I, at that point, baby turned and then it was just a regular waiting game, then at 40 weeks and one day I had felt a little bit of a little bit of a trickle. and I knew what that felt like because of my first birth.

It was also, my water broke first, and it was definitely just like a trickle. It wasn't like the movies at all where it's like you suddenly feel a gush, like a water balloon just broke, and you're like, of course, like in an elevator or something. It wasn't like that at all. It just feels, if I were to describe like, you peeing on yourself a little bit by accident, from laughing so hard, like that's what it feels like. And so I knew that feeling because of my first, and luckily that same morning I had an appointment with my OB to get my 40 week ultrasound. 

And so at that point I called my OB and I was like, Hey, I think my water broke. I'm not sure. Do you want me to just come in for my regular appointment? Do you want me to come in now? Do you want me to go to the ER, or a hospital? What should I do? And she's like no, come in. They have the tools necessary to test your amniotic fluid in the office to see if it is, in fact, amniotic fluid.

And so I went to my scheduled appointment. Did the ultrasound, baby was still head down. Hallelujah. And, it was in fact my water. And because I have group B strep, my doctor was like, you need to go to the hospital. And also on top of that, you're three centimeters. I was like, what? I had no idea. I had no idea. Literally no idea. I think because I have a toddler on my hands at home already, Things are just crazy around here. I had felt contractions on and off. It was definitely not coming in regularly. I just felt contractions here and there throughout the weekend.

Nutritional Needs in Labor

And by Tuesday, I mean, we're talking like three full days here. By Tuesday, I had gone up to three centimeters. so she was like, you're three centimeters, you got Group B strep, you have to go to the hospital. And I was like, but could I just maybe go to Shake Shack first and then go to the hospital, do I have to go to the hospital right away?

And she's it's your risk to take, but I would suggest Yes, you go. And then, my husband, he is very a nervous person, and so he was like, but if she says that maybe we should go. I'm like, but Lisa said we don't have to go right away.

Lisa: Go through a drive-through, at least get a meal. I know. Shake Shake sounds really good.

Tracy: So they give you so much crap at the hospital for eating, like literally while after we got to the hospital, they would come and check and be like, you, you didn't eat anything to do. It was like, you're in detention or something. Once we got to the hospital, I was starving at that point.

Like I hadn't eaten anything since the morning. And by then it was like, what? Like by the time we did all the paperwork, got a bed, it was like three o'clock in the afternoon. And I was starving. And my husband had to like, go to the vending machine, get onion rings and like Funyuns and sneak 'em to me.

Lisa: I ate many Funyuns in junior high school. Flash from the past. 

Tracy: I mean, And they taste extra delicious while you're in labor.

Lisa: When you're starving.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah, I had to basically sneak in Funyuns, Doritos. Like I just, anything I could, he could get his hands on at the vending machine at the hospital. So I was really kicking myself or not going to Shake Shack first.

And even though I have group B strep. Yeah. But it's not, I mean, I think my OB kind of just wanted to rid herself of any liability. Basically, Hey, I'm telling you you have group b strep, and you do what you will with it. And I just felt like that wasn't very supportive because to me, I just want a friggin' burger.

Lisa: And like, how long does that really take? Yeah. Seriously. And so many times, people rush to the hospital for this scenario for induction or things like this, and then they get there and they wait for a room to start an induction for 12 hours. And I'm like, that means it was not entirely an emergency, but okay.

Tracy: I know. And the way, like you know, for that split moment when we were deciding whether or not we should go right away or wait a little bit for that split moment, I was like, oh, maybe she's right. Maybe I do need to go. Because group B strep means that you have that bacteria. and because my water has broken, it has been broken.

Maybe that bacteria will get up to baby and whatever. You just start spiraling and thinking about the worst case scenario. And I think in the grand scheme of things, yeah, it could have waited like 20 minutes while I go on a detour and get a smoothie and a burger. So I'm really kicking myself over that and I highly advise anybody in the same situation to just go get the burger. 

Hospital Experience and Wait Times

So I get to the hospital, eating Funyuns, eating Doritos, and whatever I can get my hands on. And the hospital, the labor and delivery floor is packed. It's packed. I mean, this is two weeks before Christmas and it was just packed. It's as if people were going, it was like Macy's Herald Square, like it was crazy. and we were just in this, we were still just in the triage room with two others, there were two other women in that room. So it was a room of three beds and the light above my bed wasn't even working. It was like, it wasn't even working. And it was like, so it was dark, it was like flickering lights.

It was just like a bad situation. And it wasn't until another six hours went by that we could have finally gone to bed. And so it was just packed during that time. So given that, how packed was, I think that they had this fire under their butts to start turning over beds. More so than usual probably.

And so about two hours after I get there, a PA comes to check on me and she's like yep, you're still three centimeters. And I'm like, I yeah, I know that. I was just checked two hours ago, like, how fast do you think this is gonna move? obviously, and-

Lisa: And hello, why are they doing another internal when they just did one when there's a greater risk of infection because your waters released? What? Seriously?

Pressure to Induce Labor

Tracy: Yeah. I honestly think it was part of the show to be like, Hey, oh my gosh, you're not dilating fast enough. That was for them to lay out the groundwork to be like, you need Pitocin. That is, that kind of felt to me as that was the end goal for them.

And so at first they gave me Cytotec, which I know to be like baby Pitocin, like to help things soften up, move along a little quicker. It's not as intense as pit as I understand it. And so I took the cyto, not much movement and from there it was another, I think I. think maybe only not an hour-ish, an hour or two hours. And they were like, okay, you took the Cytotec, it's still not moving. We're gonna give you Pitocin. And I was like, hold on. Can you just give me some more time? Like I just finished it, what do you want me to do here?

Can you just gimme some time? And they were like, all right, fine. So they held them off that first time. Second time, about an hour later again, they're like, okay, still not moving, we're gonna need to give you Pitocin now. And I'm like, again, I'm like, can you please gimme some time?

And the second time I held them off for half an hour. And then third time they, I guess they maybe labeled me as a difficult patient or escalated my situation, a nurse manager came and talked to me and she's this woman in her seventies, and she's like listen, honey, this isn't the eighties where we don't know anything about Pitocin.

We've been giving Pitocin for decades now, and it's totally safe. It's totally fine. This will only help you. It's only to help you and your baby get here safely because you have Group B strep. And because of that, potential infection can happen.

Lisa: You're getting antibiotics, right?

Tracy: Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, no risk to Pitocin either. That's ridiculous. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Tracy: I know they were just like using whatever they could at that point. Like it really just felt like me against an entire floor of nurses. And so it was just extremely not like hostile, not supportive. And, at that point I think I was just tired. I was hungry, I was tired, it wasn't even from labor pain. I was just like, I was just overall tired, and I knew that I couldn't, I knew that I couldn't fend them off any more. I am a very non-confrontational person. I don't like conflict. I, so for me to have spoken up those times that I did like on my own, I think is as much as could have done. My husband, I can rely on him to say something, but he is like either zero or 100. Like the last thing I need is for him to get dragged away by hospital security.

Epidural Decision Process

So I'm like, you know what, let's just leave it as it is. If they want me to get it, fine. You know what? Fine. And at that point, I think it was around six hours since I got to the hospital, which is also, again, not very much time. And so I decided to get an epidural before I got the Pitocin because lesson learned from my first birth is if you get Pitocin first, things start moving very quickly. And then by that time, like you're like white knuckling waiting for the epidural to come.

And so I had gone into this birth like I did my first where I'm just like you know what? Let's see where things go. I'm not giving myself any sort of set expectations. I want an epidural by however many centimeters, or I do not want an epidural at all. I just went into it thinking, I'm probably gonna get one, but if I don't need one, or if I don't feel like I need one, then I'm just gonna try and ride it out.

Rapid Labor Progression

Let me try and see how far I can get. And it was just sucky that I didn't get to really. Let myself experience how far I could go, naturally. And so I got the epidural first and then they gave me Pitocin. And then from there it all happened very quickly. Within five hours, my second baby Ira was born at 10. And, yeah, it was just crazy how everything happened. And even up until the point that I was fully dilated, at that point I knew because I felt that intense pressure. And as he started coming down, like the pressure, the rest of my sac broke and I felt that gush.

That is when I felt that gush and it kept going with every contraction, like more and more kept on coming. And I told the nurse, and she was like, oh, it's because you're lying on one side for too long. Like it's the medication that's leaking out like you need to, And I'm like, what? That makes no sense.

Lisa: What?

Tracy: What, yeah. What medication? 

Lisa: Which medication?

Hospital Staff Communication/Bedside Manner

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. And she was like, it's because you're lying on one side for too long. You need to flip over. And then I was like, why? And she's like yeah, it's all the medication leaking out because of your position. And then she could proceed to blame me for lying on one side instead of my left side or whatever. And it was just bad. And then it wasn't until she was like, all right, fine. She reluctantly said that she was gonna call over a PA, PA comes to check on me. And I see hair. She's like, I see hair. I gotta call the doctor right now. So I, this is what I've been trying to tell this nurse this whole time. 

Lisa: Somebody sent that nurse back to like communication skills training, please. I'm so sorry you were treated that way. Listen to women in labor. 

Tracy: Exactly. 

Lisa: They say they know their body better than anybody else. Please.

Delivery and Immediate Post-Birth Experience

Tracy: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And yeah. And then they called the doctor and then, Yeah. From there it was just like, it was easy peasy, couple pushes, and he was out, mazel tov.

Lisa: This is our second, third usually at that point. 

Tracy: Yeah. At that point my body was like, oh, we're doing this again. Oh, oh, it's not your first time at the rodeo. Yeah, that was, I would say it was a wild ride, to say the least.

Lisa: Yeah, I just wanna commend you for buying yourself time for the several rounds that sounds like you did. Did you just think do that or you remember from, taking birth class or how did that– 

Tracy: For sure. Yeah, Yeah for sure. Like I would say that taking your class really helped me to give me that voice, because if I had not taken your class, I would just be. Where my parents taught me, listen to whatever the medical professionals have to say because they're all knowing.

Advice to Expectant Mothers/Parents

And because I took your class and because I learned through that, that there is another way and there are a plethora of options and information out there that you have to take your own experience into your own hands. Like you are the one birthing here, not them. And so I think that really helped at the moment to say this isn't how I want it to go, I do wanna wait.

This is something that is important to me. And if it's important to me, then I have to say something about it. And I think, I don't regret not pushing back more because I think that also, again, me non-confrontational, if things had gotten to the point of being contentious, that would've also stressed me out at that point. 

Role of Doulas

And I think that's where a doula would have stepped in. I chose not to get a doula and I think in those types of situations, a doula would've really fought for you. And I would say that absolutely hands down that is the importance of having a doula so that she can, or he can be, that voice for you if that is absolutely something that is non-negotiable for you.

Lisa: Well said. Thanks for sharing that. Did baby come straight to your chest after birth?

Tracy: Yeah. yeah, he did. And it was just a really beautiful experience because I think, the second time around, I'm able to enjoy it a lot more. I think the first time, all of this is new, and so it's I think oftentimes you see on Instagram and social media how beautiful those first moments are, and like the moms are crying and it's oh my gosh, love at first sight.

But for me, and I think a lot of other moms out there, it wasn't like that. It was like it, he came to my chest and I'm just thinking, oh, like he's so gooey. Like all of the like white stuff on him and– 

Lisa: Oh, that vernix. 

Tracy: Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, I'm just like, and I'm sweaty. He's gunky. And I'm just like, cracked out on epidural too. I don't think people really warn you about how that can make you lightheaded as well. And it was just like a weird experience. It wasn't magical. It was just, I just felt like instant anxiety and I felt like this is like a strange being that is put onto me. I did not feel love at first sight. 

Comparing Post-Birth Feelings

And yeah, I think with my second, especially knowing that this is gonna be my last as well, I think that makes the moment so much more special. Because knowing that this is, for me, going to be the last time I'm gonna experience this, and, because I know what to expect, I'm able to be more present and in the moment.

Lisa: That's beautiful. And it’s so interesting that you shared that about the first and not feeling that magical, I'm in love, because that's been a theme actually on season three of this podcast. It's been brought up more than once and I've talked about it. The longer I do this work, the more I see that not every, like more often than not, I feel like with a first birth, that's, that is the for many people and too many people feel guilty if they don't feel like deeply connected and in love with their baby when they first meet them.

But the way you described it is so poignant and makes so much sense. This is brand new and more often than not, what I, the weird word I hear described like in those initial moments of meeting first baby is relief.

And who is this alien-like looking thing that I've never met before? I don't really fully know you yet. Gonna take time. And it just makes so much sense. It does take time for most of us to grow into that feeling of connectedness and to just adjust to this metamorphosis. You've all just gone through a parent for the first whereas you're able to enjoy it the second time. 

Tracy: And not to mention there's so much going on in that moment. Like there's suddenly, there's this like okay, you feel the baby come out and that really feels like a physical relief.

You really feel like you feel him come out of you. And it's, the only way I can describe it is you just took a very large poo.

Lisa: Right?

Tracy: And then suddenly they place him on you and you're like, oh my gosh, it's finally over. Okay. But now he's on me and oh, in the meantime, like your legs are still wide open. They're stitching you up. Oh, in the meantime, all the lights are still like blasting in your face.

Like it's just a lot going on. And then like you have the nurse coming in and suctioning the fluid out of the baby's throat or mouth and it's just and then and maybe your husband trying to take pictures. It's just there's a lot going on in that moment, and so you, it's not like this beautiful spotlight moment that you're like, oh my gosh, and you start hearing like the angels sing.

Lisa: I occasionally hear from people, but that is not the most common, far from the most that I hear.

Tracy: Yeah. Yeah. So don't believe everything you see on social media, right? Yeah.

Lisa: Oh, this has been wonderful. Is there anything else that you haven't gotten to share yet that you'd like to share and or just final, themes or tips or insights you'd like to share with expectant parents, first timers or maybe people who are about to have their second?

Navigating Medical Advice

Tracy: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I would just say that like for me, I touched on this earlier, it's not that I'm against a c-section by any means. I think that in this day and age, in the internet era, can be so polarizing and I think when you have a medicated birth, you yourself, see yourself as weak or you feel you're judged by others as being weak, whether or not that's a c-section or a vaginal birth.

But then on the other hand, if you have a non-medicated birth, it's wow, you're a hippie. I can't win. Like you can't win. And I don't think pregnancy and birth can be put in a box. And I think it's so easy for us when we are down these internet holes on social media. You see all these beautiful moments of either camp and you're like, oh, I belong in this camp. No, I belong in that camp. It's like sometimes, like you're not in either camp, and that's okay.

Mental and Emotional Support

I think that's exactly the situation when it comes to pregnancy and birth. Like everyone's journey to pregnancy is different. Everyone's birth is different. Every baby is different. The pregnancy and birth are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to actually raising a kid. And so I think that I would just say if I were to tell myself this or give others a piece of advice, it's just to zoom out a little bit, have that perspective and just know that every journey is different and we need to give each other that grace, and be more understanding of how people got to where they are.

And I think I would hope that my story helps and resonates with somebody maybe who is experiencing similar feelings or also has a baby in transverse position. I think the biggest lesson that I learned is just to let go, let go of that control. And also just to see things as they are and experience them as they come, rather than being like, oh, I have to have my birth this way or that way is, I've, I would say, the biggest lesson I learned. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Lisa: Yeah, those are such wise words. I don't know if you remember, we talked about in birth class of let's set strong intentions whatever you and the birth will look like. Then you have those intentions, really go into it with surrender and openness because it's gonna protect your mental health.

We should never be, no one should ever feel ashamed or like they failed in birth. If it didn't go a hundred percent to plan, all birth is birth and no one should ever be made to feel, in our very polarizing social media landscape, as if they have failed, because there are many things that are out of our control.

I really appreciate your sharing that. That's great, Tracy. All right. Thank you so much for taking the time. 

Tracy: Thank you.

Lisa: It's so good to see you again on the other side of everything that has happened since you took class right before the pandemic with me. 

Tracy: And I have many friends that I know that have taken your class like, wasn't even like it, it was like later on, after they've had their baby. They were like, oh, I took this really helpful birth class.

And I'm like, wait second and then we realized that we all took your class. So it's just been extra special. And such a pleasure to be able to talk to you again.

Lisa: Thank you so much. 

Tracy: Thank you.