Brooklyn-based craniosacral therapist Regina Patane (BabyCranioNY) joins Lisa to provide some educational insights into this alternative modality of bodywork that can support babies and parents in their recovery from the birthing process. She not only explains the technique itself but also gives specific examples of how powerfully it can help a baby and parent receive gentle adjustments from the physically arduous experience they’ve just gone through together including for both physiologic/vaginal birth and also belly birth/cesarean.
Resources:
Craniosacral therapist Regina Patane: babycraniony.com | Instagram
Sponsor links:
East River Doula Collective (find a doula, attend our free “Meet the Doulas” event)
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens and virtual) | Birth Matters Online/Self-Paced Course
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; we will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Topics Covered
Introduction - Regina’s Journey into Health and Wellness
Discovering Craniosacral Therapy
Basics of Craniosacral Therapy
Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy Explained
The Importance of Asking for Consent
Understanding Compression in Babies
Delayed Cord Clamping: Benefits and Practices
Unique Challenges of IVF Babies
A Nanny's Experience with Birth Trauma
The Impact of Birth Stories on Parents
Final Thoughts and Session Insights
Decoding Baby Cries: Needs vs. Memory
Craniosacral Therapy for C-Section Recovery
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today I have with me a wonderful cranial sacral therapist, Regina Patane. Welcome Regina.
Regina: Hi, thank you for having me, Lisa.
Lisa: I'm so excited to chat and spread the good word about the great work that you do. So Regina came onto my radar, I don't know, a few months ago and the doulas in my collective have gone to her, meet with her, and have a session with her, one or more. And then recently I sent my daughter to have a couple of sessions with her and I don't know what kind of voodoo you do, but it is amazing voodoo.
We just had a check in, our doula collective has a check in on Zoom, to build community and support each other every week. And right before we met here today, in the hour before, we had our check in, and craniosacral therapy came up and you came up, and one of the doulas was talking about the magic that you do and just how phenomenal it is.
So thank you for the work that do. Would you mind just doing a little bit of a more formal introduction of yourself and how you came to this work and whatever you'd like to share to introduce yourself.
Regina: Sure. Absolutely. So I came into the health and wellness industry in my early twenties.
Really because I wanted to fix my own health problems. I suffered from anxiety, depression, hormonal issues which the medicals could not diagnose for years. And at one point it's just that it was all in my head. I had sleep issues, weight gains, I was losing my hair. The list just went on and on.
And all they were offering me just basically masking the symptoms with pills, which I did not like the idea of it. So I decided to get into the field to learn about the human health and human body and try to apply the knowledge onto me to then fix my issues. And slowly and surely I did. Started to unravel everything, I took several courses and applied, obviously, everything I learned. And my symptoms started to reduce greatly.
Of course, I fell in love with the whole idea of, Oh my gosh, there must be other people out there who also suffer all these issues and the medicals are not able to help them. So why don't I just stick to it and dive deeper into the whole industry.
And, as I said, my anxiety and depression, hormonal issues, all of those started to really subside, but there were still periods where they were all coming up and I couldn't really figure out what was the link? Why they were still coming up? And it was like every few months, almost like an anniversary kind of thing. They were all back for several weeks.
And one day a very good friend of mine who was also in the industry for years at that point said to me, you have got to go and have a session with this lady, whatever she does, it's just absolutely amazing, and this was in London. So I take a session with this lady and I crystal clearly remember lying on her couch and going, I don't know what the f*** this is that she's doing, but I have got to learn this. This is just like unbelievably magical. So we finished the session. She had a little bit of time and I'm like, okay, you have got to explain to me what is this? this? Because I just went blindly.
I don't know why am I here, but I was told that I need to come in and have a session with you. So it was craniosacral therapy and I'm like, okay. So I'm writing it down and never heard about it before. And I went home and I researched it and a few months later, there was a course that was starting in London and I'm like, I'm signing myself up on it.
So that's how my whole journey started. It was a two year long course and it completely single handedly changed my life, and all my symptoms, suddenly the flares up and everything made sense because I was able to trace it back to my birth trauma, as well as lots of other, early infant, traumas that my nervous system was still circulating. And every few months it just relieved it and gave me all those symptoms. So that was to me, the turning point really, where I fell in love with the work, Andi never looked back and that's seven years ago now, since I finished that course. So that was about nine years ago now when I first had my first session.
Lisa: Amazing. And so you live in Brooklyn. And how long ago did you move to the States?
Regina: So I got stuck here at the very beginning of the pandemic. So for almost five years now.
Lisa: Well very glad you're here. So can you explain to us first, the basics of, for who've never heard of craniosacral therapy, because I get this question quite frequently, whenever I bring it up in class, they're like, what the heck is that? I've never heard of it. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Regina: Absolutely. It fascinates me that in the UK, all the midwives, when they go through whatever many years of schooling to become midwives, they now all know the benefits of craniosacral therapy predominantly for the infants.
So every one of them who gets qualified and then becomes a practicing midwife, they all tell their clients, once the baby's out, that please, please, please, go and find a craniosacral therapist and have a few sessions for your baby. It's just pure magic.
So I find it really amazing that over here it's still not mainstreamed at all. But what craniosacral therapy is, it basically works with the nervous system first and foremost, and the therapist creates a field, where the client's nervous system basically is able to drop into the place where all the self healing happens.
So that's kind of in a nutshell, if I really wanted to simplify it. What it also does, particularly for infants, it's able to dissipate birth trauma that the baby's system is holding on to, and any kind of compression the baby's head, neck, back, or even pelvis suffers as a result of being born. And it obviously has a huge health implication later on, if those compressions and tightnesses are not being dealt with as a baby, it will cause health problems later on in life, like in my cases, the list can be pretty much endless.
But depending on obviously where the compression is, what kind of nerves are involved, that area is influencing, that those are the kind of that's how the symptoms will basically come up based on where the compression is.
Lisa: And can you explain a little bit more about the name craniosacral and like the physicality of that?
Regina: Yes. So it originally emerged out of osteopathy, which I think that's why it's got very mouthful terminology, which nobody really likes in the industry, funny enough, but I don't think it will be changed anytime soon.
So cranial means it's your head. And sacrum means the triangle shaped bone at the back your pelvis. And the reason I, we all think the term comes is because your head is obviously hosting your brain. And then your sacrum is where your spinal cord finishes, or I should say, the majority of the nerves are finishing, of course nerves are innervating our entire body, but that's what the name basically means.
Lisa: I was just watching a podcast on our plane ride a few days ago with a neuroscientist talking about how there are nerves in our heart, there are nerves in our gut, in our stomach. And I was just like, I've never even thought about that before. And it makes so much sense. Fascinating.
Regina: Absolutely.
It's becoming again, a mainstream terminology that we have two brains, we have one in our head and then one in our gut.
There are way more neurons, nerve connections our guts than in our brain. Really and truly the gut brain is our main brain. But again, it gets shut off for most people, because there's obviously issues that were never dealt with once we were born.
Coupled with the unideal diet that most people are having lately.
Lisa: Right, like in research that has been coming out that like in the placentas, there are all these microplastics. Like babies are born with this toxic, burden on their bodies. Yeah.
So the type of CST you do is specifically biodynamic. Can you explain what the difference is between that and I guess non biodynamic?
Regina: So there are two types of craniosacral therapy. The one that is just called craniosacral therapy, then biodynamic craniosacral therapy. The craniosacral therapy, the simple one, is the very first spinoff of osteopathy. It was Dr. Upledger who brought this out from underneath osteopathy.
It's very mechanical. They are taught on 10 steps. And anyone with any kind of symptoms, issues they would like to work on will go and see a craniosacral therapist. The craniosacral therapist will go through those 10 steps. So they are taught to look for specific compressions, specific, alignment issues within that 10 steps, and wherever they find one, they just go ahead and undo it, like an osteo would, you've got some compression here, and then they alleviate it with some manipulations.
It was around the 50s when there was another, two American gentlemen who then took it upon themselves and further expanded craniosacral therapy and created biodynamic craniosacral therapy, which is, you're going with absolutely no agenda.
You are not looking for any compressions, any stuckness in the body. There isn't a 10-step protocol. You're working with whatever the client's body is presenting in that moment in time, and you are following the body's lead because it's based on the very fact that every single body knows how to self heal if the environment is provided for it.
So as a biodynamic craniosacral therapist, we are first and foremost creating that environment for the client's nervous system to realize that this is my opportunity, that I can fix things within me whilst this person is holding this magical field for me. Feeling obviously where the compression is, but I am not looking for it.
I'm only noticing it once the body's showing the patterns to me. And even at that point, we are taught to wait for the body's invite and the body will give us the treatment plan, as in at the beginning of the session, the body could show me three, four different areas.
I don't know where it needs, where the treatment needs starting, the body knows it. So I wait until the body out of the three, four areas shows me that, okay, we're going to start with hip today. And in another person, it could be completely a different area where the treatment starts.
Lisa: So am I right in interpreting what you were sharing about those differences, in saying, generally speaking that biodynamic is more energetically focused, whereas the other branch of CST, or original, is more physical?
Regina: Yeah. That's a good way of looking at it.
Lisa: And it also reminds me of, I think I shared with you in the past, my chiropractor does something called network chiropractic, but a more known term would be gentle chiropractic. And I think that's a very similar difference. And like when most people think about chiropractors, they think about cracking things and popping things.
And my chiropractor doesn't generally do that unless it's absolutely necessary. He really takes a more energetic approach, a much gentler approach, which for many of us who are in a state of fight or flight all the time, he explained to me, I don't want to be so aggressive with you because that's going to put you in more of a state of fight or flight. We want you to get to be more zen and regulated. And so this gentle approach is so much more effective in that way. And so that's how this resonates with me, this biodynamic CST. And another aspect that you had shared with me previously was asking consent, the body's consent. And I love that. I love that so much. Because so many people are walking around with trauma and having experienced different kinds of abuse. And that's trauma informed care, to pause, and to, ask for a body's permission to touch them or work on them, and including babies. Do you want to say anything on that whole thing?
Regina: Yes. So I personally wait and ask the baby. The same way as I would ask an adult's body, if it is okay to put my hands on them and have a little listen and wait until the nervous system settles to show me where they need some help with.
Yes. Every single baby obviously is like, yes, please. So they always give you the yes. But I always, always ask. I never assume that just because the parents brought them in, and just because they were born a few weeks ago and I know that there is always stuff, I don't assume that, oh, sure, the baby just needs treatment.
I always ask.
Lisa: I suspect that some listeners might be hearing this and being like, that's really woo woo. Like what do you do you mean by asking a baby for consent? Are there any like physical cues? I'm sure some of it's energetic, but is there anything you would add for those skeptics out there who might be like, that's not a thing.
They can't tell you, yes. I consent.
Regina: Sure. I actually asked the baby out loud, in front of parents.
So at the beginning of my session, certainly the first session, I do tell the parents, I talk to the babies, out loud, because, believe me, they do understand you. They obviously don't understand every single word like you and I do, but they do understand what you are saying to them and they will respond to you. So I ask them out loud, or even before the question comes, I'm already looking at them to see what kind of signs they are showing me.
And so basically at the very first session, I take a case history. I ask the parents about how was the conception, how was the whole pregnancy, and then of course the birth and the baby will always tell you where they had issues. So to me it's just absolutely mind blowing the amount of times the mother gets to a tricky, period of recalling, let's say it's the birth or it's just the whole labor and the examination and the baby will start crying and that cry has a very different quality. If you really listen to it, you can hear, it's full of feelings and it's full of emotions. There's really some upset, there's sometimes there's real anger that the baby's displaying with their cry.
And sometimes the mother is actually talking about, Oh yes, and over here, everything was absolutely fine. And we just waited and, we had great time and we were supported and the baby starts crying. And it's not that the mother, what the mother is saying is not true. The baby experienced it differently.
So that's another way of just taking notes before I start the actual hands on treatment with the baby, that I watch and listen to see where the baby is telling me that they actually had some issues. Whether it was during pregnancy, conception, or just being born. And then I do ask them.
Another way that they will display asking for help is, and it's particularly true for the head area, they suddenly start rubbing their eyes, scratching the face, or even pulling on their ear. Just to show you that this is the actual area where I do have compression and please help me.
And when they do that, they always look at me. They look so incredibly deeply into my eyes that it always gives me a chill.
Lisa: I just got a chill.
Regina: Yes, and me too right now, because it's that you're watching me, you understand I'm telling you, right? And I know you can help me. It, I'm telling you, it's an incredibly privileged and such a magical moment when the baby looks you with the, ah, you hear me, you understand what I'm saying. I'm going to show you everything.
Lisa: And how therapeutic for the parent that's there, too, to witness that.
Regina: So then I go ahead and I explain to parents, can you see this is what they're doing? It means this and you listen to that cry? You hear all that anger in that cry? Another way, actually the very last baby I just treated last week, was showing me on his first session, there's a point where conception and the discovery that the mother is pregnant comes up, and if the baby wasn't planned, then again, it's almost like the first possibility for a baby to experience trauma of not being wanted or even considered for an abortion, even if it was just a short period of time and they will show you.
So we have gone through, baby showed me some scratching of the face, rubbing of the eye, and he was not sleepy at all. And they confirmed that he does this periodically and they don't know what it means. So we dealt with that. We helped, think the right side of the head, that he was scratching and rubbing the eyes. So we helped with the compression there and he calmed down and he was just chilling on the mom's lap for a good 10 minutes. And we was just talking about all kinds of things. And then suddenly he looked straight into my eyes again and his lips started to shake.
And I'm like, okay, here it is. He's going to show me something else. And he threw his arms out, like a stretched out arm position and that immediately signals to me that this is a discovery trauma, the baby's showing me. And he started to cry, again, the cry was a very particular type of cry and he kept staring into my eyes and within about, I would say, 45 seconds to a minute into that very typical quality cry, he displayed a tremendous amount of anger. And I looked at the father at that moment, because there was just a very particular facial expression on the father's face. And the mom looked a little bit withdrawn and I was almost wondering if she finds a little bit too overwhelming.
And I looked at the father and I looked at the mom and I just asked, was he actually planned? And at that point, the mother started to get a little bit upset, and she was like, no, not really. And the father looks very sheepish at that point, and it turns out that she really wanted to have a baby for a very, very long time, and he wasn't. And then he adds, and he's like, look, I knew that we were in that period that she was fertile. So I guess I knew what I was doing by not using protection, but we never really agreed on, okay, let's try for a baby. She got pregnant immediately. So the following month, she tells him that, Hey, we are pregnant.
And using his own words, so I said to him, how did you take it? Considering that for years you were against having a baby, and he said, I just didn't know what to do with information. So for three days, we weren't talking to each other at all. And I didn't react at all, other than just going completely mute.
I said to him, this is exactly what the baby's showing me right now, how angry he was that he felt unwanted for three days, at least on your side. And at that point, the mother got very emotional, started to, to tear up. And I said to him, this is the perfect opportunity to just wipe that slate nice and clean.
Just witnessing, and, take responsibility that that baby didn't take it very well, so rightly that you didn't want him for three days. We did a little repair in that moment and, the baby stopped crying. And again, so there are ways that the baby will show you during the sessions what particular area he needs help with, and they do tell you the story, if you know how to listen to that story.
Lisa: That's amazing. And the perception and intuition you have in your work is off the charts. Like the doulas in my collective who've seen you, and my daughter was looking over at me when, as you know, after the session, when you were just giving her the things that you observed, she was looking over at me, like, how does she know that? How does she know that? It was wild.
It really, just, so, so cool that you have this expertise and this intuition and insight and can glean that. And I, in my session, I was just on a table and you were holding my feet and then coming up to my head, and it seemed like you were hardly doing anything, and yet you clearly were doing a lot. Really powerful.
Regina: Yes. It's, I don't know why it happens to me. I know that it doesn't happen to every craniosacral therapist. I've got many colleagues who don't have these kind of experiences during sessions. For years, I was always fine with it. So I stopped questioning and I stopped wanting to understand why these things come up.
I think it's a combination, if I really had to guess, I think it's a combination of A, just being okay with whatever comes up, having enough compassion to just witness whatever comes up without, any judging, any kind of intellectualizing. And then really the most important part of it is clearing your own sh*t.
I've I don't know how many hundreds, certainly in the thousands of sessions myself, I've already had, so the clearer the therapist is, the more they can be present and whatever you clear out of you, the client's body will know that, ah, this is something I can bring to you because you either had a similar experience, or you have the compassion, the capacity to hold it.
So again, this is where the body's own intuition does really come up and able to figure out just how much I can give to this therapist. Can they hold my stuff really and truly and if they detect that they can't, they're really not going to show an awful lot. You're just going to have a relaxing session and that's about it, but not an awful lot will get released.
That's for sure.
Lisa: Can we take a little deeper dive into, you mentioned, I think more than once, the term compression for babies. Can you explain a little bit about what you meant by that?
Regina: Sure.
I'm going to start with vaginal birth. So if the baby comes through the normal way, then if you imagine when labor starts and cervix is getting ready to open up, and of course it can take however long, the baby's head is engaging, right?
That's how the whole process starts.
So a lot of the times, parents will see, this baby I just mentioned earlier on, the father said, Oh my gosh, yes, when he popped out, I was freaked out because he had like a cone head. The babies, the first compression they will experience during birth is top of the head.
It's when they engage and they're waiting for the cervix to dilate enough for them to start coming down. So the top of the head will almost always have compression. And the reason it happens basically is because you have to imagine that the baby's head is basically like a jelly in order to make it much, much smaller once it starts descending, which is the reason why we're born premature, because our head just doesn't have space inside the mother's body to fully develop before we're actually really truly ready to be born. This jellyhead basically doesn't take an awful lot before it starts picking up compression.
Lisa: I love jellyhead.
Regina: Because everyone's always on the fence when I use the jellyhead terminology.
They're like, Oh yeah. Okay. I understand what you mean. And if you've ever seen a skull model, you might have noticed those zigzag lines. They're called the suture lines. They are separating one cranial bone from the other. Now, every single cranial bone will be in several pieces on a newborn for the very reason because the head needs to get much, much smaller in order to come through the birth canal.
Images showing compression on babies’ faces/heads
So as I mentioned, the top of the head will have compression first and foremost, then once the baby starts sliding into the inside of the pelvis, their head is going to have to rotate to one side, doesn't really matter, there isn't a they always rotate right or the left, but they will rotate to one side. And whichever side is meeting that triangle bone at the back of the pelvis, if you imagine that bone, it's, I'm trying to explain it without having a visual. So it's pointing forward and the side of the head is going to be against this triangle shaped, super bony, really not much meat on it whatsoever for padding.
Now imagine that jellyhead is meeting that triangle bony structure, and then going to have to rotate again and under the pubic symphysis, which is the front of pelvis to then eventually come out of it. So the side that is meeting the sacrum, the triangle shaped bone, is really the side that gets most of the compression.
And sometimes you see that this side had enough dragging force to leave visual cues like this side, the eye might be little bit closer to the nose, or a little bit lower. Because there was so much dragging that happened as the baby was turning and rotating inside the pelvis. So that is an insane amount of compression and that's why the baby starts rubbing the eye, scratching that side of the face or pulling that ear because they're trying to help themselves by trying to decompress that area. And the other thing to mention is this sometimes, in my view, the reason why babies start asking for very frequent cluster feeding, because whilst they're breastfeeding, they are able to decompress all this area just by sucking.
So I don't know how long that decompression that they're able to do with sucking on the breast will last, but even if it lasts another 15, 20 minutes, they feel much, much better for that interim time. And then the compression comes back, the tightness returns, the pain, the discomfort returns, and then they start crying again. The rubbing happens again, and the mother either feeds again, or they don't.
Lisa: That's fascinating. I hadn't heard that idea about cluster feeding. Thanks for sharing that. So then, compression. What's difference with a belly birth with a C section?
Regina: So different in a sense that obviously the baby is not going through the birth canal, the head, actually, sometimes the head still got compressed because they might get stuck halfway through, right?
Lisa: Pushing stage, yeah.
Regina: They can still have compressions. Almost always the top of the head, unless it's a planned C section, will also have the compression, because they were ready to come out the correct way, so to speak.
And, but more importantly, there is a huge difference between a C section baby and a natural birth baby. And it is a term that we use in the cranial world called the C section babies will have a cannon head quality.
So their head will feel very tight and quite heavy. Hence the cannon heads terminology. And the reason being is that inside the mom's belly, there is a certain amount of pressure. Any room in the world outside will have a very different pressure and the change is quite significant. So when the baby is born in a normal way, the pressure keeps changing, while in the birth canal gradually. So the baby's head doesn't experience a very quick pressure change if they come out the normal way. But with a C section birth, they're whipped out very, very quickly. And therefore the pressure happens very suddenly, and now this jelly head just basically locks down because of the pressure, sudden pressure change.
So, that basically means that the head now has an overall compression pretty much everywhere. And in some cases, the head will have even more because they were turned in, they were trying to come out the other way, or if they descended halfway down the pelvis, that one side of the head. might already got enough compression anyway.
Does that answer the question?
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Another thought that came to me, that came up in our collective chat this morning is, in the UK, my understanding is gentle cesarean techniques are more common than they are here. And that in a gentle cesarean, one of the cesarean techniques to try to replicate a vaginal birth, as much as we can in a surgical birth, that the baby is lifted of that surgical incision much more slowly, you know it as much as allows, so that they're trying to replicate the squeezing and that kind of, effect. And I had a recent, respected OB here in the city, who taught a workshop, for perinatal professionals on gentle cesarean techniques. And I'm hoping to have them on podcast as well, talking about those approaches. He talked about how he slowly, slowly, slowly the baby out to be born and how, when he reaches in with his arm to retrieve the placenta, how the uterus is so powerful and that it feels like a snake is really tightly wrapped around his arm.
And that that was to demonstrate how powerfully a baby can be squeezed similar to, not the same, but similar to the vaginal squeezing in a physiologic birth. I thought that that was a really interesting description that I hadn't thought of before. And was just thinking about this idea of compression that you were talking about. But in an also interesting, sort of related, but different, that you just described about the sudden pressure difference in the environments, not just the movement of the squeezing as a baby's being born.
That's so fascinating.
Regina: There are also certain reflexes that get ignited if the baby does come down the natural way, just because they have to turn the head and then the body goes with it, which again, C section babies do miss. Also another thing in terms of the difference between the two different way of being born, when the baby comes through the vaginal way, the body basically starts accumulating quite a lot of energy, particularly for the final kick and push and arch as they come out.
Now, all that energy gets stuck and never gets used in a C section birth. Because the baby gets pulled out, they never had to kick, they never had to turn, they never had to do the arch. So I see it again and again, that a, the baby's arching, trying to, so very cleverly, but unfortunately unsuccessfully, trying to finish what they never had a chance to do.
And also you always feel this really potent, stuck, buzzing energy in their body that is just there waiting to be used. And that's usually one of the first thing that they release once I put my hands on them. And that's when the parents pick up the baby after treatment, and they will tell me like, Oh my gosh, they feel like a rag doll.
Suddenly they don't feel that tight and heavy. And it's all that stuck energy that is out of them suddenly. And the entire nervous system just has a, finally an opportunity to relax, which will obviously help the whole sleeping, the feeding, the pooping, and just the overall demeanor of the baby changes absolutely immediately.
I've got another, fantastic teacher who done a very tiny little study of his own, with a teacher and her own classroom. Every single parents agreed, for this little experiment and he basically wanted to see whether there was really a developmental difference between vaginal and c-section kiddies. So they were around three, four years old when he conducted this little research, and he asked the teacher to just observe the children and make a list if she noticed any significant difference between kids. Predominantly like kids who were having a hard time playing by themselves, starting or finishing a puzzle and not necessarily antisocial behavior, but social interaction was a little bit lacking.
So she compiled the list and then he did his own little experiment and play and what have you, and he made his own list and he compared it with her list and it was completely identical. So he conducted that every single C section babies in that class, which granted was a small class, had same characteristic of just not knowing how to stop and start, like a puzzle, had to finish things. And he believes, as well as a little bit of social interaction lacking and he thought that it was down to the fact that because they didn't choose to be born their natural way. Whether they were planned C sections, or the baby just wasn't ready to come out.
So, their very first experience was that something was done to me without my consent. Therefore, It becomes the brain's first imprint that in craniosacral world, we know that's how it is, the birth will become our nervous system's very first imprint, and everything will be just compared to that afterwards.
So even he who is not a craniosacral therapist saw it. That there is definitely a correlation that the C section babies are a little bit lost and not knowing what to do because they didn't initiate their own birth. Which I thought was fascinating.
Lisa: Yeah. And I would add that I'm sure is where you were headed with this, but you know, that thanks to this, as far as I understand it, newer understanding of neuroplasticity and the work that you do, like those neural pathways can be adjusted and retrained for the better.
Because II never want parents to be hearing, crap, my baby was born via C section, and now all is lost. Absolutely not.
Regina: Absolutely not. No, I completely agree. And that's certainly that I keep reemphasizing during the sessions that, you know, just because it happened, it doesn't mean that the baby's doomed for the rest of their life. The very fact they are here and they're having these sessions is what's going to help them just erase that first memory. And then they're going to have a very different future ahead.
Lisa: And the movements that you were referring to, that babies in a physiologic birth will do, I don't know if they call it cardinal movements in the UK, here we call it cardinal movements. I'll include in the resources in the show notes for this episode, some visuals on that. I can pull up, there's a video that's really beautiful that shows those cardinal movements, or at least I'll include a description or maybe both, but just for people who are like, what does that mean? What do you mean? When do you say these movements that they're meant to do?
So you've already touched quite a bit on the different benefits, of CST for babies. Can you talk a little bit about, or is there anything else would want to add on that? And then, once you're done on that, going into the benefits for a parent.
Regina: Anything else for babies, certainly also helps with the bonding. Particularly, again, highlighting that in most cases, when it ends up being a C section birth, certainly if it's an emergency C section, then the bonding kind of gets interrupted by, obviously the main focus is like, there is an imminent danger that needs treatment, completely understandably.
But ideally, when the baby is out, they do need to be put on the mom, skin to skin and really, and truly, just want to let them be ideally for the first hour, sure, because it is a lot that has just changed for that little thing, let alone the mom. For the parents. So again, that's something that quite often they don't get to experience. And I've worked on so many adults where I see them during a cranial session, the entire birth process, how they were coming out, where they were stuck. It's like a movie that the body shows it to me. And again, coupled with how angry they were that I got taken away or how frightened they felt that, suddenly, I was in this room, this stranger handling me and wiping and, doing all these procedures, shoving a tube down my mouth, and I don't know where mommy is. You can only imagine how incredibly frightening and stressful that is going to feel to a baby who just made the a huge adjustment of coming out and going through the whole birthing process.
Lisa: And this baby, I'll just add, that and whose brain, the baby's brain, doesn't understand object permanence yet. So when they can't see the parent, they think they're gone forever. So it can be particularly upsetting for them.
Regina: Yes. It always makes me quite emotional when the body, when the adult body shows me, because it's really so incredibly strong, what they did experience and you can't help but to have so much compassion to what they had to experience. And unfortunately, some of it are completely unnecessary.
If we had the better understanding, then, a lot of these things could really be avoided. Do you really need to wipe the baby, clean it immediately? It's just crazy. Do you really need to weigh the baby immediately? Come on.
And then another thing to mention is the early cord clamping that will give what we call again, in the cranial world, umbilical shock syndrome. A lot of the time, it will feed into digestive problems for the baby. If you cut the cord too soon, then, that whole belly button area is just holding that sudden shock that I got disconnected from mom and I have no idea whether I'm coming or going, where am I in space, ideally, which I know unless, you are so fortunate, you want wait until that cord basically, there's no blood in it whatsoever.
Lisa: It's white. Wait until white. There's a whole campaign. Wait until white.
Regina: And it stopped pulsing. Now it can take any time, anything from 20 minutes to up to 40 minutes. And again, in hospital settings, that will never ever happen. In the UK we've gotten, years and years ago, again, the midwives started campaigning against it, that they automatically wait two minutes. Last time I checked it was still two minutes.
Lisa: It's up to three here with OBs, then some midwives in hospitals will wait, up to ten or so. Home births and birthing centers, they do wait until it stops pulsating.
Regina: That's exactly your absolute most ideal place where you're really allowed to have that time, whether it's 20 minutes or 40 minutes, right? So that's another thing that the baby can display and we didn't touch on it, but IVF babies are completely different kettle of fish, and entirely different. Because of obviously how they were made, right? All that procedure, all that drug, all that poking and checking and everything is very much in the person's nervous system. So I can always feel it. It's got a very different quality to it. And they almost always have, I'm lost in space, I don't know where I am, quality about them.
Lisa: This is still babies you're talking about, not the parent?
Regina: No, you can feel it in a parent. You can feel it in an adult as well. Last time I worked on an IVF person was, they were in their teenage years and I could still feel that quality in them. And we think, I had a long discussion one of my mentor and we came to the conclusion that it's possibly because they weren't fertilized inside the moms. They out in the wild, they have, not wild, you know what I mean? They have no way of orienting to something and that's could be the basis of just feeling lost and not knowing where they are. And they also display a very strange buzzing kind of spinning quality, which we think is the downside of all the drugs that were given.
Lisa: Hmm.
Regina: To the mom, get the eggs out, et cetera, et cetera. So yes, that's, again, you're, I can only imagine how you must feel if all of that is in your nervous system 24 seven, you know, how are you going to be able to just enjoy life, just to start with, if you feel like you don't know whether you're coming or going, you've got a buzz and a kind of a spinning sort of quality in your system. It's really not great at all.
One other thing to mention is, looking back now, I have an almost two decades of nanny experience when I lived in UK and the very, very first baby I looked after when I was only 19 and obviously I knew nothing about any of these things, but he had a horrific birth.
He almost, technically he was born dead. The cord was wrapped around his neck. He was black, blue and everything. And they were resuscitating him for a very long time to the degree that they were about to put him to the side and declare him dead when he came back. And that kiddie screamed the entire house down every night.
I have never heard a baby scream that quality. It was like someone was torturing that baby. It was unbelievably upsetting. And the mom didn't care about it. She offered me a pair of earplugs if it bothered me. She just left him screaming in his cot, and I couldn't do it. I just, something inside me was like, I don't know how you can do this, but I cannot do it.
So I used to have him just basically, I'd pick up and eventually he'd quiet down and he'd fall asleep on me and I would try to put him back into his cot and he'd be up again and screaming. So I spent three nights leaning against his cot, him sleeping on me, and I'm sleeping practically nothing at all.
And I said to her, look, I can't function now. I'm completely sleep deprived. I haven't slept for three nights. And she said, I told you, I can give you a pair of earplugs. So I didn't like that option at all. And of course, I didn't know what else I could do other than I just knew that the baby needed human contact and I could offer that to him.
So we came to an agreement that she agreed for me to take him into my own bedroom. I had a single bed wedged against the wall and that's where I put him and he would be sleeping on me. So I co slept with him for months before he stopped the screaming. But although he came out of it, he obviously never got professional help for it, as in, had I known that he needed craniosacral therapy, I would have certainly suggested to the mom whether she would have taken it, that's a different thing, but I noticed him when he turned around, coming up to two, that he was having severe behavior issues. He was banging his head against the wall, and all these kind of what we now would probably put on the ADHD and all these funky labels.
Lisa: Neurodivergent, yeah,
Regina: That, I remember when I went into the cranial world, I just went, Oh, my God, that baby. He was reliving his entire birth every night, and he was born during the night. And although I must have helped him because he stopped doing it several months down the line, he still didn't get what he really truly needed. And I can only imagine how much compression he must've had. That it was then coming out later on, a year and a half later, down the line as behavioral issues. And again, with a fantastic mentor of mine, we talked about it several times, and he certainly wholeheartedly believes that in most cases, these kids that are labeled with all these behavioral issues, they really have all this stuck energy and compression, which then causes problems on the nervous system that it comes out as behavioral issues and there's wrong with the kid other than they really just need treatment.
Lisa: I'm glad that family had you to at least just hold the baby. Give a little bit of nervous system One thing that came to mind when you were talking about belly birth versus C section, was that a shared client, I just wanted to share with listeners, you already know this, a shared client of ours gave birth C section, I recommended you and they went to you and had a session.
I can't remember if it 1 or more sessions, several clients have gone to you have loved your care but this one really stood out to me. She was like, I'm not feeling myself, then I went to and I feel like myself again.
Video: And
Lisa: I just thought that is powerful testimonial.
The power and benefits of work you do.
Regina: Yeah. So moving on to the second half of your question, what about, what does it do to the parents, to the mom? I really cannot say it enough times how incredibly beneficial it is for the mom, particularly after a C section birth for a number of reasons. A, it's usually is an unideal, scenario and most of them did not want a C section at all. So you already have all these kind of, sorrow and heartache and guilt and, all of these emotions, but there are layers and layers and layers of muscles that then are cut through. And almost every single C section mom I've ever worked with, they all say that, yes, it's healing nicely apparently, or it's, the six weeks check is all clear, supposedly it's all healed, it's fine. But it's numb. I don't want to touch it. It's like it's not part of me, or I crystal clearly have an upper and a lower part with a straight line where the c section is, or it gives them pain. And I have a pain management background. I had a pain management practice on the side in the UK for years.
And I got very passionate about working on scars because I have never seen an untreated any kind of surgical scar, not giving problems some time later down the line. And I literally, I could have made an entire practice just on treating any kind of scars because I've had clients who like seeing everyone and they're like, no one can figure out why I've got a shoulder pain, but I'm scheduled for a surgery.
And I'm like, any type of scar, particularly if it's a woman, I'm like, do you have children? Yes. C section? Yes. It's all fine. And I'm like, let me see that scar if it's been untreated. I don't care whether it's 15 years, 25, 45 years old, it will give you problems. And I start working on the scar and they always look at me like, what the hell are you doing to me?
That shoulder, that knee, that lower back is now raging. It's like you found the pain switch and you just cranked it all the way up. And I'm like, this is why it needs working on. There is a, again, a long term consequences of not having that C section scar treated. I've seen it time and times again.
So that's one, but, on top of it, obviously, there was a baby inside you growing for nine months. So can you imagine the amount of tissue change your entire tummy slash inside of your pelvis had to go through to accommodate a fetus growing every day for nine months? It's huge. So when you have a C section, sorry, when you have a cranial session, all those tissues just go, oh, okay, great. I come back, I got pulled this way, stretched that way, and suddenly they can just all come back to where they were before. So of course you're going to feel way better getting off that couch and you go, Oh, okay. So I don't feel the separation. I don't have the numbness, and I just feel more in my body. How could it not be beneficial?
Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. That scar tissue mobilization is so important. And I just, we just neglect women in culture in the US anyway, and I just feel like and bodies, whether we identify as women or not, do all cranial sacral therapists work on that aspect, or is it just because of your pain management background?
Regina: No, it's because of my background
Lisa: That's what I thought. Okay. Yeah. So just to clarify, I love that you can work with Regina and then also pelvic PTs or OTs would also work with people post C section on scar tissue massage, mobilization that the doesn't fuse and get stuck. And, yeah, we work out some of scar tissue in a really important way.
I'm glad you brought that up.
Regina: It shuts down every muscle that gets cut through that scar. All this extra layer of tissues that got laid down by your body in order to heal that cut is now shutting down the muscles. So again, if you are someone who was active before, and then now you've got pain, I can only imagine how frustrating that must be.
Or if you're someone who'd like to, regain their pre pregnancy body shape and can't because it doesn't matter how much they exercise their abdominal muscles, it's just doing nothing. It's doing nothing because if it's got cut through, your brain basically has no way of communicating to that muscle.
You can exercise it until the cows come home. Nothing will change because of that scar tissue.
Lisa: We covered the natural birth and the C section birth, it's important to mention that even with natural birth, there are different categories, so the baby can be born very fast.
Regina: Like it was my case, I popped out within a half an hour, start to finish. No wonder I had so much cranial compression. It's a lot. Now again, if the baby's born, over longer period of time, so long labor will have another set of different kind of compression because the baby was inside, stuck for so long. Vacuum, forceps, again, will have a completely different imprint that they leave on the baby's body. So again, you have to treat with what the baby is coming in with, but they all have a very particular quality to it. So the body always tells you the story that they went through.
I had a client in the UK who came to me with a shoulder problem, not a C section scar. It was an abdominal scar, but it wasn't a C section scar. I can't remember what she had. Doesn't matter. I helped her with the shoulder by working on the scar and she had three children at that point.
Her youngest one was about two years old and we're just talking and talking during session. And she tells me that she still doesn't sleep through the night. She screams in the middle of the night and everyone is like beyond exhausted that two years and she's still not sleeping. And otherwise she's very happy, she's cheerful, but she was born very fast.
She basically came out in the car park of the hospital. So by the time they drove the hospital, she was like, half her head was out and her feet were turned completely inwards. So her toes were just basically, staring towards each other and she was obviously freaked out seeing her third baby coming out like that. And she was just assured that, Oh, this is not too uncommon. Don't worry about it. The legs will just fix itself. And she's like, now that she's walking, she constantly trips over her little feet and falls over five, six, seven times a day. And of course it's frustrating. And she gets the little bruises, and scrapes here and there. And she's like, we don't know what to do with her.
We took her back to her pelvis to be examined and they said there's nothing wrong, everything is just absolutely fine. So she'll grow out of it. So the moment I heard that she was a super fast birth, I told her that this could be it and she's like, right, I'm bringing her. So she brings her in, never met the little girl, super chatty, very friendly.
I'll chit chat with her for a bit. Then we agreed that she's happy to sit on my couch and we're talking to her, and the mother told her that we're going to go and see Regina, and she's going to have a look at your little feet and try to help you so you don't fall over. So she was all completely on board.
So I remember holding her feet and almost immediately I'm feeling that buzz, almost a similar kind of buzz, like, the C section baby's body hold because they couldn't do the push. And I thought, oh, I wonder if because she came out so fast, she couldn't do the push, she was just like, basically head down sliding.
And anyway, it started to get stronger and stronger. And chit chatting to the mom, she's having a good time. And I'm thinking, wow, this feels incredibly painful at this point. And I was about to check in with the little girl, she's lying down on my couch, legs are dangling, and she sat up, she looked at me, and she's like, that's it, I'm going home now!
And the mother is mortified, and she's like, Darling, we don't talk like that, this is very rude. And I just signaled to the mom, no. That's, it's all fine. I'll tell you later. So I said to her, that's absolutely fine, no problem. And I had a little swing chair in the room that she was very interested in. The first thing walked in. So I offered her the chair, she took it. So I'm talking to the mom and I said, it was really intense. So I can only imagine that, at two years old, You have no idea what you're feeling and it spooked her a little bit. So the very next day she emailed me and the subject line was, you're never gonna believe what, dot, dot, dot.
And I opened the email and it said she has slept through the entire night.
Lisa: Amazing.
Regina: Never had an issue afterwards with sleeping. She brought her back two more times, I think, for the legs because they started to straighten out, the feet. Never had a problem with falling over and none of those things.
Lisa: So powerful.
Regina: So it's like you call it however woowy, whatever you want to call it, because I completely understand, very difficult to understand what's going on there, especially that you don't really see anything really happening, but when you see and hear these results, to me, it's like, I'm sorry, but you cannot argue with it. That's something changed in that system and they are now not reacting the same way as they were before.
Lisa: Mm hmm. And I, it's one of several things that I really, really, really wish here in the U. S. was standard of care, you know, was more readily known and that it was standard. I wish that CST, pelvic PT or OT, and breastfeeding support for those who want it, that should be standard of care. I just, I really wish it was.
Regina: Yes. You touched on it earlier on that, that how much, care a mom is getting after birth is like absolutely zero, and it's heartbreaking. Like way, way, way back, and an entire village was supporting the mom, with the newborn and, food was there. Every help was there. The help with the baby, the help with the household, and yes, it's not happening anymore. So of course it's incredibly difficult to bring up children in this day and age with no support and insane amount of crazy expenses, just living expenses, let alone getting extra help with that baby.
Lisa: When you're working with new parents, do you see connections being made, like their own birth stuff coming up when they've gone through birth?
Yes. Your own birth story as a mother will always, always going to come up and get reactivated the moment you enter birth. And sometimes for partners too, right?
Regina: Oh, absolutely. The amount of times, which is why I'm always keen on seeing the entire family, because when you're having that initial chit chat with them at the beginning, you get a good gauge on A, is the mother getting enough support by a partner? Is the partner getting enough support by anyone, really? How are they doing? And it's at least a handful of times I can think off the top of my head where the partner was highly, highly traumatized. The mom was okay, even though they really went through some horrific stuff, but the partner was completely and utterly traumatized. And you could see that they had this very vacant facial expression, and I had two men, they didn't even want to hold their babies because at one point during the birth, they were obviously in, and what they saw and then the complications that happen and almost losing the partner freak them out completely. Again, it's heartbreaking that you can get help for it, so you can be there and enjoy your new family, and bond with your baby, if you just know how to get that help.
But, yes, your own birth story will definitely come up, certainly for the mom, and I would say, certain aspects of your, maybe not necessarily your own birth story, but how you were cared for as an infant will come up for the partner, 100 percent, sure. Just to give you a very quick example, I had a young family here a few days ago, and the partner looked just a little bit closed off. And I asked him if knew anything about his own birth story, and he was a C section baby. And there were complications, so he was in intensive care for almost two weeks.
The mom was expressing and just sending in milk, so he was not with the mom for the first two weeks, straight after he was born because it was back in the days kind of that they were like, no, I believe the mom had some medical complications. So she needed to be in one ward. The baby was in another ward. He was constantly, he looked very anxious when he was holding the baby.
And every time the baby made the slightest noise, he was just, not shaking, but trying to soothe the baby and he was constantly shooing the baby and the quality I was picking up there that his entire energy was just like, you have got to stop making noise because it makes me very uncomfortable, and again, it's very sad to see that it didn't need to be that way.
So I had a chat with him about how much do you think your own experience is coming into it? And he thought about it and he took his time to really think about it. And he's like, I guess I never thought about it that way, but I can see, and that's when he tells me all of these things. And I'm like, so can you see that what you experience is that, your own helplessness and no one is there for you and you end up projecting it onto the baby, unknowingly, and what it does to your relationship with the baby.
And he was very open to it. And it's like, okay, I'm coming and having my own session with you. That's it. Because I certainly do not want to pass it on to my kid. Now that I understand what I could be potentially doing.
Lisa: Yeah, so sometimes we project things, sometimes we overcorrect in things we're like, we want to do this differently from our parents. Then we like swing in the totally opposite direction, which also can not be great.
Regina: Yes. Yeah, when I was a nanny, certainly the last few years before I stopped being a nanny, I constantly saw the, I don't know if you use the same terminology here, the helicopter parenting, and I was like, ah, I know exactly how your childhood went based on the fact that-
Lisa: You felt abandoned. Yeah, I know.
Regina: Yes.
Lisa: We're going be so involved.
Regina: That it's overcorrecting and then again, you're having to educate them that you're really not doing any good for that kiddie to be right behind them all the time and bubble wrapping them sort of thing.
Lisa: They need to fall down and learn to pick themselves up sometimes.
Regina: Yeah. Indeed. Yes.
Lisa: I you teach a workshop on the different types of babies' cries, and I'm intrigued, I really would love take the workshop sometime. Anything you'd like to share about the different types of babies' cries and, yeah.
Regina: Yes, it is a workshop that is called Baby Talk: Decoding the Cry. It is held in Greenpoint in a baby store called The Wild, once a month. We'll see if it picks up and it's viable to keep it that way. It's usually on a weekend. This month and next month, it will definitely be on a weekend, on a Sunday morning, and it will be a 90 minutes workshop and I'll go through the whole, just unpacking, what your baby is trying to tell you with the different type of cries, which there really are two. And we always seem to think that there's just one type of cry.
So I cover what needs cry is, which is basically when your baby's hungry, when they're signaling you that they need a diaper change, they're feeling cold, or too hot, or they need a nap kind of thing. And then when is it when they just bringing up something very different, what I call memory cry, and that's basically, they are reliving birth, all the difficult aspect of their birth, and they're showing you where they need help.
So how to identify that and what you can do about helping your baby resolving the memory cry issues and what happens, more importantly, if you don't do anything about it, because I see it working with not just babies, but adults, I can totally see how it will transpire into something much more significant later on in life if it gets missed.
Lisa: Memory cry. That's fascinating.
Is there anything that you haven't gotten to share yet that you'd like to share? And any final takeaway that you'd like leave or new parents with?
Regina: Yes, I think one of the most common question I get asked is how many sessions my baby or both of us will need. And, it's very difficult to give you a straight answer, particularly before the very first session. I always have a much better understanding after the 1st session. Generally speaking, I do say it's really not that many. In order to resolve the whole birth, story, both for you and the baby, it doesn't take long, not for the baby because that's all they have. For adults, we have all, 20, 30, 40 years of--
Lisa: Layers of baggage,
Regina: Right? Exactly. We've got suitcases behind us, right? A baby, they came with, not even a hand luggage kind of thing.
So generally speaking, I say that if you're looking at three to five sessions, in most cases, unless a lot of things went wrong and there's really layers and layers of stuff, but generally speaking, three to five tends to be enough.
So it really doesn't take that long. That's for sure.
Yeah. And with my teenage daughter, I was surprised her to come home after the second session and she's like, she said I'm done. I was like, what? Wow. Hardly ever does a practitioner like say, no, you don't need come Yes. With adults, you can quite often just really get a feel that the body is like, right now, I'm Thank you very much.
A couple of years ago, what was she? 18, going on to 19, year old with very heavy suicidal self harming, thoughts that she really was super desperate to get help with. She's seen some psychiatric help and she didn't want to be on the medication that she got offered and someone suggested to her to come in and have sessions with me and after the first one, I said to her, to me, it feels like within five sessions, we can make this really, move it along and she agrees. So I saw her for five consecutive weeks, once a week, and she came back after the second one, and this is where I certainly wish that I would take photos of people before and after because I barely recognized her face.
She just, she looks way more younger and very vibrant. And suddenly she smiled, and that wasn't that super dark cloud over her. And she was like, Oh my gosh, this week was already so much better. And, after week three, she's like, Oh, I only had it twice, after week four, she's like, you know what, I had it just once a week, and there's something in me keep growing and that just makes me let you know that I will be fine. I'm coming over this thing. And again, in her first session, her horrific birth came up. She got stuck three times for an extended period of time, and she was just, so full of rage and at one point she wanted to give up, and just I can't do this at all.
And then because she got stuck so many times, the cord was wrapped around her. So she got put into a different room for a good half an hour to 45 minutes. So again, that's just a lot of stuff that she was holding, with obviously, a few bits and pieces on top of it, that we all experience is just part of life's rich pattern. And, for whatever reason, at time that I met her, her body was just like, I'm done, I can't hold all of this in. And, she was, coming from a culture where we don't talk about feelings and emotions, we just stuff everything down and, she just reached her tipping point, but, her body was very cooperative and just came up with more and more stuff every single session. And we stayed in touch for weeks afterwards, just like checking in just to make sure that she's really fine after the session. And she got married, she's happy, she took a job that she always wanted and she didn't have the guts to do it. She took up driving, and just a very happy, completely different individual than the first time she walked in.
Lisa: Amazing. I think that idea of taking photos a great idea, although it might be awkward the very first time meeting with a I can see that weird. But wouldn't that be so telling so, even for them to just have that.
Regina: Yes.
Lisa: Then if they want you to be able to share it as a visual testimonial then you could.
Regina: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You see it on baby's face as well. Especially if there's enough compression that it holds the nervous system or dampens the nervous system.
Once it clears, their face look very different. Like literally immediately after the session. You're like, wow. And the parents notice it's like, wow, they look different. And I'm like, yes. Because suddenly you free up, parts of the nervous system that just wasn't very happy.
My final thoughts would be, to me, an ideal world, every single baby, regardless of how they were born, really and truly should have, even if it's just two, three sessions, because I know what it does. And like I said before, I know what it does because I also work with adults, so I can totally see the connection between, how much of that stuff, that we end up carrying unknowingly for the rest of our life with us. So to me, really and truly any parents, it's just a magical gift that you can give to your newborn to help them, just clean that slate and allow their nervous system to just go in a much happier and healthier direction, after a few sessions. It really doesn't take that long.
Lisa: Awesome. I do want to add for clarity on this, terms of accessibility and understanding that you've shared with me, that a session, they're basically paying for a session, in which we can use that time for both or the whole family.
Regina: Correct. So the way I work, exactly.
Lisa: It's not like double or triple the cost.
Regina: Correct. Yes. Thank you for highlighting that. That's another question I get asked. I have to book two sessions, and then therefore the cost is double? I offer a longer session, so I can treat both the mom and the baby within the same session.
Lisa: Love that, great. Well, I agree with you, I wish it was accessible for everyone to be able to CST. hope down the road, insurance companies will cover it and, more readily so that can be a little more accessible more people
Regina: You know, the way I look at it, again, based on the fact that I know what it does later on in life, if I just use my own example, all that time, all that money, and all that waste of everything going around in circles and driving yourself nuts. I would much rather pay a few hundred bucks for a baby than to potentially pay thousands and thousands as an adult on trying to fix things that you don't know where it's coming from.
Lisa: Absolutely.
Regina: To me, it's completely inexpensive, for that reason.
Lisa: When you frame it that way, yeah. It's a similar, another related thing is, in investing in nutritious, nutrient dense foods is an investment in your health, preventing way more money and a heartache and headache and hassle down the road in that way.
Regina: One of my mentor has this fantastic quote, lemme see if I get it right. You can either choose to pay the farmer, or you can choose to pay your doctor later on. And I'm like, I agree. And I'm a foodie, so I enjoy, nice tasting food. And I know the difference between a commercially farmed something, whether that's fruit or vegetables or meat or an organic, a farm raised thing, and I'm always willing to pay more for that because, at 42, I'm not on any medical, any prescription drugs and, I don't have any aches and pains, no problem whatsoever.
So, I must really keep it that way.
Lisa: Agreed. Thank you so much Regina. This has been wonderful, really hope it's been helpful to listeners to learn, if you weren't familiar with craniosacral therapy, about the many benefits and that it should be standard of care. So Regina, tell us how can get in touch with you if they'd like to reach out.
Regina: Sure. Easiest way will be, coming onto my website, there's a form that you can fill out to get in touch with me. It's super simple. And the website is called babycraniony.com.
Lisa: And I will be sure to link that in the notes as well as your Instagram. She has lots of great educational videos, reels on there that you can check out too.
Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful again to connect and connect and to continue my education on this topic as well.
Hope you have a great one.
Regina: Thank you, you too.