Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 81 - Breech Belly Birth, Embracing Your Weird

We have one more cesarean birth story for you today here in the last week of Cesarean Awareness week. Liza & Jon are surprised when they conceive much more quickly than expected. Toward the end of an uneventful, happy pregnancy, they learn their son is breech. They try almost everything to get their breech baby to flip, but baby was happy as a clam sitting on her bladder. With cesarean scheduled, Liza goes into labor spontaneously a week early and labors for a day and a half before heading to the hospital for the cesarean surgery. She shares about the beautifully respectful care they received throughout, ways that it felt like the beautiful birth it should feel like including holding hands during the surgery, playing music they wanted to hear and getting to hold their son almost immediately. Finally, Liza reflects on how grateful she is to have been able to nurse her son for a solid 2 months even though she had breast reduction surgery on one side and an implant on the other as a teen, and also describes how difficult a decision it was around 2 months to stop breastfeeding and shift to formula feeding. Liza & Jon are both quite charismatic; I think you’ll love hearing the entertaining way they share their story and encourage expectant parents to go with the flow and embrace their unique weird.

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Episode Topics:

  • Getting pregnant the first try

  • Finding out baby was breech

  • Tried rebozo techniques, teas, everything to get him to flip

  • Decided against ECV

  • Putting a speaker to her vagina to try to get people to flip

  • A week before her scheduled cesarean, at 39 weeks, she starts having contractions

  • Using Ovia app for pregnancy

  • Confusing frequency of contractions, doing normal things and trying to ignore it

  • Gets up from bed, feels baby kick and feels a trickle of fluid

  • Lies down on couch, feels a gush

  • She calls care provider then wakes Jon

  • Calling a cab and getting a great driver

  • Being concerned about pain meds not working for cesarean, but the spinal block was more of a sure thing

  • Nurse anesthetist Billy was amazing

  • They were split up pre-op and post-op

  • Dr. Greening wasn’t attending births but Liza wanted to stick with her for prenatal appointments

  • Dr. Erica Weinstein did the surgery, everyone was very respectful

  • Had their Motown music playing

  • Birth of baby, getting almost immediate time to hold him after suctioning

  • Jon’s reflections on becoming a parent

  • Being glad she went into labor spontaneously

  • Breastfeeding after reduction on one side and implant on other due to asymmetrical -- worked for 2 months but had low supply

  • Shifting to Nutramigen and simethicone because of baby’s colic/GI issues

  • Embrace your weird -- your unique way of parenting, cast off judgment, trust your gut, importance of humor, singing

  • Cookie side business

Interview Transcript

Liza: Hi, I'm Liza. I gave birth almost 20 months ago, 19 and a half-ish months ago. At the time we were living in Astoria. And both of us had lived in New York for like 12 years, but during the pandemic our timeline of moving down to south Florida where I'm from and all four grandparents are kind of progressed because of pandemic. So we're actually now in Miami, Florida, and starting to build a life here and working that all out with our child and lot of beautiful family around, so it is pretty special. Work-wise right now, I'm actually looking so yay, pandemic, but I was a medical social worker for over a decade and I've done a lot of different things, but that's most recently what I gave my life and heart to. I worked hospice and rehab and did a lot with people's worst parts of life. But yeah, that's me.

Jon: I am John and, as Liza said, been living in New York for 12 years. Our baby was born in of 2019. And in March of 2020 I like many other people unfortunately were laid off when New York city shut down.

And so I was able to become a full-time caregiver for our child which was, certainly a major silver lining in that being able to have that time at home with him to see him grow and develop, and learn new things is something that I otherwise wouldn't have had, so I'm certainly very fortunate in that regard. And in a very unique window of circumstances, as Liza mentioned between our son and being born, being laid off, and then our lease running out in our apartment in Astoria, Queens, we decided to migrate as the birds do and head down to Miami where all the grandparents are.

And not only is it a new chapter for us it's also a great opportunity for our son to get to know his grandparents, which is something that we're very, very happy about. Work-wise I come from the food world. I've worn many hats often multiple at the same time, but I've been a cook I've been a chef, I've been a manager.

And then for the last six years, I've been on the procurement, sourcing and compliance side of things. So still firmly entrenched in the food world, but not necessarily doing the day to day cooking, which has been fine with me, it's been a great education. And I'm currently in the process of starting a new role. Once everything has been finalized, I'll certainly feel comfortable sharing more, but still very much in the food world. And I'm looking forward to getting started on this next chapter and really kind of getting our lives going again.

Lisa: Sounds good. Thank you. Well, so can you please share with me anything and everything you'd like to share about how about conception, about pregnancy, about how you prepared for this journey into parenthood?

Liza: Sure. So when we were talking about doing this podcast, one of the things that I don't share, I'm 39 years old right now. I was 37 when I had our son Russell. I don't normally share our conception story because I assumed it was going to take a very long time. Geriatric pregnancy is one of the dumbest terms I've ever heard. I used to work in geriatrics, I am not geriatric quite yet.

Lisa: Right? You're not.

Liza: Oh my God, all those terms. But anyway, I know people who had kids young, I know people had kids older. I know everything in between, but a lot of people that I know had a very difficult time getting pregnant. And so we normally don't share our story because we don't want to, you know, make anyone else uncomfortable or feel anything about their own journey. It's different for everyone. I got pregnant, literally the quickest that I could have possibly gotten pregnant, and we did not even-- so I'm going to tell this just to warn people. I had been on birth control on the pill for about 20 years, and they told me that it would take a really long time. So like, it would take like a year of being off the pill.

Lisa: It usually does.

Liza: To even for your body to even be ready to get pregnant. That's wrong.

Lisa: Not always; range of normal.

Liza: I was maybe off for like, almost three months. And we had used protection at first just in case because we were like okay, we're not ready for this yet. But then we were going on a trip and we were like, you know what, whatever it's going to be fun. My body's not ready anyway. Who cares?

Yeah. Apparently I got pregnant like literally the first time I could have possibly even gotten pregnant, which scientifically didn't make sense, medically didn't make sense, was not ready for any of that. Everyone else I know went through many, many struggles. We instead, I didn't know for the first almost eight weeks.

I literally figured it out one day. That's a whole other story that John loves to tell because I did the thing you're never supposed to do, which is, he was coming home on the train, and I had just gotten out of the shower, but like when I was in the shower, after a long day of work, I was exhausted, but I was like, "Why am I so, I'm extra tired all the time right now. But my boobs hurt. Why did my boobs hurt?" And then I had this moment where I was like, "Why do my boobs hurt?" And I just, I literally started shaking in the shower and I had an expired test at home, so I don't even know why I had that, but I knew I did. I took it. And it said the thing and I was like, whoa.

So I called him coming home on the train and I was like, "I need you to stop at CVS for me. Could you get something?" And so the thing you're never supposed to do.

Lisa: I'm not sure I follow why that's something you're not supposed to do.

Liza: Oh that's so wrong. You don't like call you don't go... I texted him and I was like, "Please call me when you're off the train I need you to get something at CVS for me."

Lisa: Okay. That was the part. Okay.

Jon: So I said, I said, "Okay, fine." I give her a call as I'm walking off the train, and she picks up and I go, "Hey, what's up?" And I knew something was immediately awry because the first words out of her mouth were super casual. "Everything's fine."

Liza: It's true.

Jon: And immediately my heart goes from my chest to my throat and I go, "Yeah?" And she goes, "I need you to stop at CVS for aloe," because she recently burned herself on the oven.

Liza: My wrist! I had burned my wrist.

Jon: She had burned her wrist. I said, Okay-

Liza: I did need that.

Jon: You did. And I said, "Okay." "And I also need a pregnancy test because I took one that was expired, but it says something, and so I want to take a fresh one just to be sure." I then proceeded to self narrate what I was doing. So she was on the phone the whole time and I go okay. I am walking across the street. I am walking into the CVS. I have entered the CVS. I am walking to the back of the CVS. I have found the wound care aisle. Oh, good. I found the aloe. Fortunately, it's across from the family planning stuff. Great. That's where it is. And I'm looking around and they're not in the family planning aisle. And I'm looking around and they're not here. I'm going to have to ask someone, I'm going to have to ask someone.

So I walk up to the pharmacist, who-- there was a line of people, I didn't care. And I just walked right up. Hi, "Sorry to interrupt everybody that's in this line, but can you please tell me where the pregnancy tests are please?" And they were around the corner in-

Liza: They were like near the Depends or something. It wasn't in family planning.

Jon: Yeah. Which, side note: how are birth control tests not in family planning?

Lisa: Right.

Jon: Right. So,

Liza: But to fast forward, he came home and he had gotten a three-pack where, it's the kind that tells you how far along in your pregnancy you are, you could take it at different stages. So he brought it home and I was like, I just took them all.

I should've taken a picture of the sink cause we had one expired & three other tests. They all came out saying the same thing and I was like, "What's going on?" I was freaking out because we had just been at a wedding the weekend before where it was not the most fun wedding. And so we just drank a lot and danced our butts off.

Like no one was dancing, we just created our own dance floor and we had a blast, But I was like, oh my God, I just drank so much vodka! So when we went to the doctor, and I just assumed, you know, there are sometimes false positives-- four of them, who knows. I was like, "This can't be right. Like, I have barely been off birth control, like, there's no way. But so the first appointment we had, we heard the heartbeat and we just were both floored. And I said to the doctor, I was like, "Oh my God, I've been doing so many things you shouldn't do when you're pregnant. I was like, how much damage could I have done?"

And literally, so I will say I loved my OB GYN, her name's Kelly Greening with Weill Cornell Presbyterian. That whole practice is amazing. We love every nurse and staff member and doctor there. They are beautiful. And I am, because of medical, social work I am one of the pickiest people when it comes to healthcare.

I love them, completely. But so she was hilarious.

She was like, "Well, basically everything you're telling me means shouldn't have been able to really stay pregnant, but look at you, like, you shouldn't have been able to get pregnant this way. And then you shouldn't necessarily have been able to stay pregnant, but obviously this kid's happening."

And so I was just like, "Okay."

She's like, "Well, maybe don't drink anymore and do that other stuff. Like, let's go toward you're pregnant. And now we're going to change some things."

But, oh my God. That was, yeah. So I would warn women that you don't know when you get off birth control, how quickly it will happen, because apparently that year thing, not always true.

And some of our friends know how quick it was, but it was kind of hard because a lot of people my age were struggling in a lot of different ways and they would ask me and I always felt like I had to, like it's a fun story; it's ridiculous. But I always had to be very gentle and very cautious with sharing because it's just not the typical story that you hear, or at least not in my circles.

Yeah. my goodness. This kid, and if you met him, you'd understand, there was no stopping him. He never stops. I mean, all toddlers are busy, but this kid came out busy. Oh my God. He's a lot. He's amazing. He's brilliant. It makes sense. It kind of all makes sense. Yeah. So that was in terms of preparing. We didn't, we, I thought we had at least six months like, even think about getting pregnant to let my body just adjust. And so we literally kind of boom we felt like we kind of got thrown in the deep end with that. And we were living in a one bedroom in Astoria which is where we were living when Russell was born. We had thought maybe we would adjust, where we lived and be a little more financially in a different place. And like all these things that we wanted and

Jon: Nope.

Lisa: Out the window.

Liza: Just wasn't. But you know, we also then didn't think we were going to have a kid and then a pandemic was going to be happening exactly when we So, things happened at least was in the part where you didn't have to wear masks while you give birth. Cause I can't believe how many of my friends have done that. But so yeah, getting pregnant was insane.

And then the pregnancy, that's the other thing I'm always careful to share. I was really lucky. My pregnancy was not eventful. I kind of liked it. I loved the belly. I'm already a full-figured woman, but belly was beautiful. Oh my God. I just felt, yeah. felt like the most voluptuous, beautiful I've been, it was really kind of cool. And the biggest thing I miss is the movement.

Oh my God. That was my favorite. it's just such a personal, amazing experience. But in our journey, the biggest thing, you know, we were looking around at classes. We were so happy to find your class. One, it was walkable from home, which was nice. It was part of a really nice element of coming and going to your class because we had the walk home together to kind of talk everything out.

And we met such beautiful couples and it was really such a wonderful thing. But the biggest thing during our pregnancy journey was we found out that Russell was breech 34 weeks? Around there. And you had taught us different methods and we looked things up online. We tried to flip him in so many ways.

The only thing we couldn't do, I don't remember the acronym, the thing you do in the hospital, where they try to flip the baby in a very dramatic way. I don't remember what that was. have a lot of back issues from being run over by a motorcycle in 2009. So I couldn't get a regular epidural. Anyway, I had to get a spinal block because it's a different part of your vertebrae.

I wasn't a candidate for that, but we a rebozo and we tried that upside down thing so much. My sister said we should have taken videos. I had my legs up on the couch and my hands on the floor. And John was standing over me with the rebozo

Lisa: Spinning Babies

Liza: Jiggling the crap out of my belly to flip him.

Jon: That's an unbelievable workout.

Liza: It's like doing ropes at the gym.

Jon: Except more controlled because it's here because you're not getting like a wide girth to it.

Liza: Yeah. That's true.

Jon: Very controlled.

Liza: And you're just, I was just, I was doing like a crazy plank, like handstand thing. Yeah. I was exhausted.

Jon: Just trying to shake them.

Liza: I drank some tea someone recommended. During one of the ultrasounds he did move and we were like, oh, okay. But he, no matter what, he kept moving back to the same spot. My doctor basically was like, listen, you can keep trying to flip him, you can keep trying what you're doing, but when she was checking my dilation toward the end, she's like every time I can feel his butt, like his, he loves your cervix. It's his couch. Like just understand your bladder and cervix are his couch. I think he's just not going to go anywhere. We can try different things, but being in the profession that I am I didn't have a perfect birth plan. I know a lot of women have a vision. I definitely was not that person. I'm the kind of person where I'm like, whatever's safest for the baby and for me is what I want. And same. And so we did try to flip him every night for many, many nights and it was absurd. I think at one point I even played music down below to try to like get his head. That was probably one of, the rebozo was funny, but for me putting a speaker to my vagina was a unique experience. But I thought we could coax him a lil bit. Oh my God. He kept flipping.

So it, no matter what, even day of, but I figured, alright. So if we're planning the c section, we'll see what happens. But I also thought that I was going to miss out on water breaking and contractions and all of that because I was like, well, this is going to be an interesting experience. My mother had two c-sections not by choice. My sister was emergency C-section because the umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck and this was in '78, then back then they didn't let you have a vaginal birth because of the way that the cut was done back then or something like that. So when I was born in '81, it was a planned C-section, but I was almost a month early.

I know I was baked for a little while under the bili lights. But so I do know, other women who have had C-sections most of the people I knew my age who had had C-sections, it was all in an emergency basis where they had tried a vaginal birth for a significant period. And then were heartbroken because told that they had to do this, which I know is a whole other conversation.

For me, it was like, okay, your child's butt is literally not moving and we can't flip him, so this is going to be. Okay. So then our journey ended up being where we had our bag packed. We were ready in the slimmest sense of the word.

Can

Lisa: I ask you a quick question before you move on?

Liza: Oh please!

Lisa: Just regarding the external cephalic version, the ECV that you said was not possible, were you saying that was because most people do get an epidural when that procedure is done and you weren't able to do that? Is that what you were saying was the reason?

Liza: I couldn't get an epidural. There was something with insurance also, but an epidural wouldn't work for me because of the location in the vertebrae where they have to put it and I'm sure someone will be able to correct something I say at some point. But they would have had to do a spinal block or something, which isn't normally done for the ECV. One concern that I had aside from that was also, I have one friend who had it and the kid still flipped back, I thought was crazy so that poor woman, she ended up having a C-section, but she tried everything.

She did acupuncture. She did--

Lisa: Moxibustion?

Liza: Maybe? I'm trying to remember. But for me, yeah, the epidural was not going to be an option. A spinal block was an option. It sounded like procedure alone might've been harmful for my back and I was afraid one of the things was, I mean, in terms of the biggest thing that I did preparing for pregnancy and for parenthood in general was I started getting much more serious about my back exercises.

I was very nervous about whether my body would be able to handle that weight shift. But I was more diligent than I've ever been. And I did not have back problems during pregnancy, which was good cause he was not small. But yeah, so we, we couldn't do the ECV. I think we also just chose, we kind of made it a choice. I don't remember how hard we looked into it.

Yeah, I was going to mention it's always a choice.

It seemed like it wasn't gonna be a good for everything involved.

also knowing that he kept flipping back anyway, like we had seen him in different positions, but for the most part, he seemed to keep getting back in the exact same one.

So we went with the idea that this was just what was going to be our story, but then I still went into labor early, so got to experience all the things. Contractions are rough and interesting. So we had everything packed. Was I exactly a week early?

Jon: Yeah.

Liza: I feel like just exactly a week. When I was born, I was a month early, so I wasn't sure what was going to happen there, but like I think we were scheduled for a Sunday and then maybe a week before the Saturday morning, I started having like felt like light cramps and you learn about Braxton Hicks, you learn about different things, but the whole time you're like, am I feeling what they say I'm going to feel? I didn't trust anything. I was there. There's some things I trust. But terms of that, I was very confused.

Lisa: For everybody, it's

Liza: Oh my god, you don't know! I mean, you can feel the hardening and you feel certain things, but no matter how much you read and how many stories you hear, until you go through it, you're like, meh. But so I'm pretty sure I was in labor technically, or things had started like the Friday night before, right? And then Saturday, when I woke up, I was like, I had the Ovia app, which I liked a lot. That was a really helpful thing for me, in terms of being able to quickly look up the foods and also keeping track of the fruit and vegetable that your little nubbin is and whatever. But so they have a contraction, timer and counter and whatnot.

I used that on Saturday and they were all over the place, but in terms of feeling the pain, but I decided that it wasn't as bad a pain yet as they say it's supposed to be. And I'm pretty much a like walk it off kind of person. So I have a feeling more people probably would've called earlier than I did. I spent the whole day, like having, I guess what were now contractions like all day long, sometimes it was 30 minutes apart, sometimes it was five minutes apart. It was kind of all over the place. And I was like, well, this isn't what I read about so I'm probably fine. It's fine. So we spent the whole day, like, I don't know, doing errands and things.

 We figured we'd get as much done as we could because we had planned for certain things to get done right before, so we did the errands and definitely got ice cream and had like a nice day, but a day where I'd be like, hold on one second and I would just have to stop for a minute and feel things. And then when we went to bed that night (he's a heavier sleeper than I am) but I will say one thing that I love that he bought me, that pregnancy pillow thing, that's like a giant U shape and I still miss it.

Oh, so beautiful. He surprised me with it. I was worried he'd get kicked out of the bed if we tried to use it.

Lisa: I was going to ask, do you have a king size bed?

Liza: Well, now yes, then we had queen, we worked it out. It was fine, but I love that thing. But I woke up at like midnight where I felt like I had just gotten a really hard kick from inside. I know people say that you feel a pop or whatever. I didn't, I just felt like the nub's real hard kick and I was just like, that's rude, like that was just an intense kick, it woke me up, but then as soon as I stood up to try, I had to go to the bathroom because of course we have to go to the bathroom every five seconds.

As soon as I stood up I felt like a trickle, which I also didn't know what that meant, so it was just a trickle. I was like I could just be, peeing myself who knows it's, I'm pregnant, there's a lot going on. So I literally went to the bathroom and I was Googling like, how do you tell the difference between urinating on yourself and going into labor?

And so I was sitting on the toilet Googling things. He was asleep. And then you would also said if you think things are happening, just go lie down on your side, see what happens. So I put some protective stuff down on our couch. I lied down on my side then I just felt a gush. It was kind of stickier, so I was like, okay, I think this is different. I think I can say this is different. So I gathered my wits about me and I cleaned myself up as much as I could. I gave myself literally like 20 minutes to just breathe and just be by myself for a second, and then I put in a call to the doctor into the call service and they were like, someone's going to call you back. I said, great. I went and I got you. I woke you up before I called.

Jon: No.

Liza: Yes. I called and then I woke you.

Jon: Yes. You called, then you woke me.

Lisa: I called and then I woke you. And I don't remember what I said though. I was like, okay, so we're good. Everything's fine. But I'm pretty sure we need to go to the hospital now I'm waiting for a call back. I think my water broke because it seems like that's what just happened. You don't know. had no idea what that was gonna feel like.

Yeah, but that gush is a little less confusing than the trickle.

Liza: Well, it wasn't just the gush. Cause who knows? You could pee a lot, but it was like the viscosity and the stickiness and like, it was different. So, but the trickle confused me a lot. And I was like, women do pregnant women just pee themselves a lot? Cause I've heard, if you laugh, then you pee, which is a thing.

Lisa: Right. right.

Liza: Yeah. But so I got you up and I was like, I'm cleaned up and we're going to go to the hospital. Our plan was to take an Uber or a car. And you had put in one of your recommendations that Jon took very beautifully seriously, which was to have a serious conversation with the driver. Remember that? We had the nicest driver in the world.

Jon: Yeah, this was two something in the morning when, you know, when

Liza: I woke up at midnight, I had two hours before I woke you, and then we were in a car right, around 2:15, 2:30, because we got to the hospital at like 3.

Jon: Yeah. so, yeah, so just as the, just as I finished getting Liza and the bags down the stairs, then the guy with the car pulls up and so ran up and just said, Hey, just so you know, like, we're okay, but we're going to the hospital because my wife's going into labor.

Liza: We put Chux down on the backseat. We were like, don't worry, we're taking, we're protecting your car. He's like it's fine. Yeah. He was so nice.

Jon: And then guy goes, yeah, the guy goes I've done this many times, including my wife.

Lisa: Oh, nice.

Jon: Safely get us there as fast as you can. And no, and he was great. So yeah, we were in the hospital,

Liza: It was a smooth ride, he was so careful about bumps, he was the nicest driver ever and kept being like you okay? I was like, yeah, I'm okay. I'm okay.

But yeah, I mean, the fast forward version is I mean, we got to the hospital at like 3:00 AM. Russell was born at 6:29. So it all kind of went quite seamlessly as crazy as everything started. But we, but oh my God, contractions ha! There's something-- I'm pretty tough. Like, so my entire life pain meds haven't really worked on me. I was actually very relieved to hear about a spinal block because there was a part of me that was nervous, sleep meds don't work on me, pain meds don't work on me. I have the tolerance of a rhinoceros. I have no idea. That's Polish, Ukrainian roots, something like that. But I remember being very concerned and telling my doctor, like, what if I feel everything? Because none of this works?

She's like okay, this goes literally into your spine. Like, you're going to be fine. It's not like we're giving you codeine in a pill that's not gonna work on you. It'll be okay. And then one friend had told us to ask one of the staff if they wouldn't mind taking one of your phones to take pictures. If I tell you, we had the cutest team ever.

So, you get in, you get hooked up and monitored. My favorite was when they check, if your water really broke and they swab you. And they're like, if your water really broke it'll turn blue. But I don't know. They weren't sure at first because I was like, I'm pretty sure my water broke, even though it should have been very obvious. I was unsure about everything, But they were like, oh yeah, that's a dark blue. All right, here we go.

Jon: That thing was Royal blue.

Liza: It was blue, blue, blue, but I don't know why that stuck in my mind so much because whole time I was like, maybe this is all in my head, it's not real. None of this is real. This is just sort of weird. My sister's older than me, but she also had kids before me, and I remember the whole time, apparently every time we'd hang out, I'd be like, is it real yet while she was pregnant and getting bigger and bigger. And she's like, no I just had a big lunch. This is not real. I don't know what's happening. And I kind of understood that the whole time. I was like, there's not a human growing inside me. This is just, this is weird.

 So they were amazing and they kept asking if we needed anything whatever the whole, every person we encountered was beautiful. I love Weill Cornell. I think that they did an amazing job. And really, I know a lot of women's concern is that they're not going to be heard but people were before I could even say something, they were asking me. I did not feel like we were being bossed around. Like, I really felt like we were a part of the process and everyone was very communicative and always saying what they were going to do before they said it.

Lisa: Wonderful.

Liza: Considering my background, if they hadn't, I would have called them out on So I was very ready to be like super patient advocate for myself because I've had times in life before I had that comfort level where I didn't know how to advocate for myself. Cause it's really hard, especially when there's a bunch of medical professionals around you. But I think that we were both fortunate, we had done the tour of the hospital before we did it before, labor and whatnot, but

Lisa: And had Alexandra Cohen opened at this point? Were you in their new facility?

Liza: Oh actually, that was the only part that I would say. I didn't like at the very end of our stay, the one of the said, well, for your next one, we'll have the fancy center. Cause I had a horrible roommate. That was a whole other thing. I got no sleep at all, which you don't get much sleep, but you should be able to get snippets. She talked on her cell phone on speaker the entire time. I had a very bad roommate and no rest and that was rough.

But so the staff was like, well, for your next one, you're going to have a fancy private room. I was like, my next one, like what? I just did this! Like stop it. That was the only thing. We also had a lactation specialist who was nuts, but she was hilarious, but I'm pretty sure she wanted to be a standup comedian.

But the experience, I will say, if you're out there, there is a nurse anesthetist named Billy one of my favorite people in the world. I loved having him there. I felt like it was having a best friend there. He was just so warm and excited for us and caring and ready to answer anything we wanted. He took pictures for us. They asked what music I wanted, we had Motown playing. But yeah, when it became real, real was I'll let you take over.

Jon: Oh yeah. Reality didn't start to sink in yet until they split us up. Cause

Liza: And this is pre COVID, so it was also a very different scene than a lot of people are experiencing right now.

Jon: Yeah. So Liza has to go get prepped for the spinal block. And that takes a little bit time and I've got to get gowned up and everything like that. So, so they split us up and they brought us into the, what was it, the like the immediate recovery room.

Liza: Post op? Or pre op?

Jon: After he was born, so they bring me to post op and nobody's there. I mean, it's, it's like five 30 in the morning or something at six o'clock in the morning at this point. nobody's there. And so I get gowned up. Okay. Well, we're going to make sure that Liza is ready to go and then we'll bring you in and then it'll be showtime.

I was like, okay. And so I'm waiting in a dead silent room. And in a post-op room, gowned up and everything, waiting for everything to happen. And I'm alone with my thoughts

Liza: Like six people in an OR feeling like I'm in some sort of surreal, like alien ship.

Jon: And so it felt like I was in there for like six hours. It was probably only 10 minutes max.

Liza: And they also didn't have the shoe things to fit your feet. He has size 14 shoe. They had to give him hair hairnet things for his shoes because he couldn't fit the regular booties.

Jon: Yeah. So being alone with your thoughts in a post-op, gowned up, waiting to be brought into an OR that's when you start to realize that, I think something might be happening,

Liza: You go through the motions for so long and then it was an unexpected timing. We knew we'd never be fully ready for it, no matter what, but and also, I should say the, my OB GYN, I had been with her for many years, but she was very honest with me when we started, she asked if I wanted to switch over to another doctor in the practice because she wasn't doing deliveries anymore.

And when we started, I love her. We've been through a lot together already for other health things. And I really didn't want to switch. And we talked about it. And what I've learned from a lot of women is that on the day of you don't always get the doctor that you've been working with. A lot of people do and they fight for that, no matter what, but I think with the healthcare background I'm very, very practical. And I was like, I love her and this, like, I want, whatever time, like it was when we found out I was already 8 weeks along. Yeah. I was like, for whatever time we have left, like I would really, I just am so comfortable with her going to ask her anything. And like the day of. Who knows who it's going to be.

And we love everyone in the practice is fine. So we actually went a very different route than most people do. And we worked with an OB GYN who we knew would not be there the day of, but in a way it was kind of like that also took one stress away where it's like, I hope she's there, I hope she's there. It was just going to be someone else that she loves and trusts and so we had Erica Weinstein. Holy crap I mean, the funniest thing is, and I told her this after if there was one more person in the hospital who told me how beautiful my incision was, I was going to be like, okay take a picture. Like this is ridiculous. Obviously, Erica Weinstein does beautiful work. I have the most gorgeous incision on the planet. Every nurse, everyone's specialist, every tech, everyone was just so in awe of my beautiful cut. It was weird, but yeah, she and the team were phenomenal. They asked us everything you could want to be asked and wouldn't even think to ask. They really talked us through every step. And it was a pretty smooth process. I mean, it was weird. Now anybody, all the friends that I have that have a maybe C-section are now calling me to ask about C-sections of course. Because that's what we do. We reach out to our people. What I tell people is what it feels like. For one thing, the spinal block was not as-- I hate needles. I hate needles. I've been around many because I've felt other people through surgeries and things, but for me, oh my God terrible. It actually wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. And I didn't feel anything but my lower body recovered really quickly.

Like I was up and moving really fast after. I think I had a ridiculously positive experience. And I also even stood when they brought me out of the OR at one point I stood after to get from gurney to gurney. In terms of being on the table, you look up and it's all the lights and you feel like you're in some sort of alien probe thing about to go on. And it's very weird. But you know, John was at my head, we did choose to have the curtain. There was something about the surgical procedure of it, where I, you want to see the instant that your child comes into this world, but I also didn't want the vision of myself being cut open in that way.

I know if I'd be able to swallow that comfortably. So the choices we made were ours and he had the option to be on, but he wanted to just stay with me. So we stayed by each other and it was just weird because you're just kinda lying there and there's not much you can do to participate, but they'd said everything they were doing as they were doing it, to keep us engaged and keep us involved in everything that was happening, which I really appreciated. What I've told friends in a not very, I need to find another way to talk about it, but the best description I can give of a C-section that if you've ever watched a zombie movie or The Walking Dead is it's very weird because all you do is you feel like no pain, but tugging and pulling and whatever, you can't see what's going on, but it just feels like people are tugging at your insides. And it's just kinda weird. And it's like, it's just, I don't need to feel that again necessarily, but it wasn't so bad. There was Motown playing, I think at one point I was even like, you know, kind of humming along.

Lisa: And was this your playlist? Did you request that they play your music?

Liza: We requested Motown. We were going to, I actually had a playlist on my phone, but then Billy was going to use John's phone for pictures. I think my phone was somewhere else. And so he put on his phone Motown for us, so he could take pictures with John's phone. I had joked that I was going to do a whole push playlist with like all songs about pushing or whatnot. I didn't end up doing any of that. But yeah, I'm pretty sure "I Heard it through the Grapevine" was on there at one point, which is a big song in my family.

But it was so relatively quick. I don't remember what time we actually got in the OR honestly, but then before we knew it, literally when they took him out, it was maybe minutes before he was in my arms. If even like a full minute, they were so quick and seamless and so quick to make sure that he was with us.

But it was relatively pretty quick. I was worried there was going to be like a long gap. I don't know. I think that was the thing that was stressing me out was that when he came out into the world, I wasn't going to be able to be with him quickly enough. It was so quick.

Lisa: Oh good.

Liza: Like right away and he was just, and Billy took pictures of everything that we couldn't see.

Lisa: Nice.

Liza: We have pictures of when he first came out

Lisa: Jon, did you stay with Liza?

Jon: No, I stayed with you.

Liza: I told you to go over and you stayed.

Jon: I stayed well but because I could see,

Liza: You could see him.

Jon: I could see everything that was happening and certainly in a medical setting such as that I'm not trying to get in the way. Even though, like, I know it would have been totally fine for me to like, be over there but I was seated at Liza's head and I had a direct line to, with the big overhead lamp and so whether they're doing the suction and they're cleaning him up and doing all and getting a bundled up and all those things, so I was able to see him right then. And then, then they brought him over and then so, I don't regret that or anything. Like, I don't feel like that was a missed opportunity, I was comfortable with how it played out.

Liza: Well, I think also a big thing for our mentally preparing through our pregnancy was that John was concerned for my health throughout. I understood that, which is one of the reasons I tried to be as, I mean, you try to be as healthy as possible for your baby, but I realized I was also trying to be as strong and as healthy as possible so that he didn't have to worry as much about me, even though I couldn't stop that worry. But I know that some of the fears and wanting to stay with me and whatnot was cause he was concerned for my health as well.

So, I did all the things that I could possibly do and I do lots of exercise while pregnant, which I think actually was good for everybody. But you stayed with me, they brought Russell over in and just like a tiny little nugget wrapped in a bundle. Oh God, so cute. Even then his eyes were just so wide.

He was just so aware and all over the place. It was like, yeah, it's gotta be cold and weird and bright right now, huh? But we just, the whole thing it's still surreal. I mean, he's going to be two in October and I still am, are you really mine? Like this is, you look a little like me and like him and what is going on? I don't know. I don't know when that stops. Maybe never. still can't believe we made a human.

Lisa: Can I ask you a couple of questions

Liza: Yeah!

Lisa: So you said that they brought Russell over and you specifically said into my arms. Were you arms restricted in any way during surgery? No, they were free?

Liza: Never. Oh, no.

Lisa: Nice cause some places do secure the arms and some don't. So I'm glad yours were not.

Liza: No, I had free reign. There was no, no restriction, no restraining at all.

Jon: I was holding her. I was holding her hand the entire time.

Liza: We were holding on to each other during the entire procedure. We were holding hands and then they brought him over. They placed him right on me and I could, there was

Lisa: Wonderful.

Liza: I was not restrained in any way.

Lisa: It's less common these days, but some places still do it occasionally.

Liza: I can understand if they --cause listen, you don't want to twitch or react or anything

Lisa: Right. people get panicky a little bit and yeah.

Liza: Sure. I think they probably knew I was not that person. When they were doing the spinal block and John was out of the room, I had them all laughing at one point and they were like, you are just not the average patient. I was like, I'm not the average anything. Nobody's the average anything, but I think I'm more comfortable in medical settings than most. So yeah. Yeah, we're good.

Lisa: Yeah.

Liza: But so we were all just like joking around, like I worked there. I mean, it was fun and comfortable. And they were like, we were all just cracking up and making jokes back and forth and the whole team and us, like, we, know that was right when we met them. It's not like I knew any of them. But I don't get intimidated or nervous around medical professionals.

And I've been, I've literally part of my job. I've been in ORs with patients while they were being put under and having surg I used to work at Weill Cornell in the burn unit for a little bit so I've seen some horrible things. So I kind of have a really healthy sense of perspective.

But also if you have a lot of trust in your caregivers, even though I didn't know these people, I knew where they worked, I knew who loved them, which is my doctor, Dr. Greening. So I went in being like, all right, I'm in your hands, please take good care of me and then tell me what to do with this tiny child 'cause why are they letting us take this home?

Lisa: So I sense based on what you were just sharing, I might know the answer to this question, but I just want to ask, were there any special requests you made, in terms of like gentle cesarean technique? Besides like asking your music to be played? Were there any other things that you requested to help it feel more like the beautiful birth that it should feel like?

Liza: That's an excellent question. I think that I was worried. I remember being worried cause they talk about when a child doesn't pass through the birth canal and layered in all the good stuff from the mom.

Lisa: Microbial seeding? Uh huh.

Liza: But I don't think other than music, I don't, I just said, I knew I wanted him in my arms as quickly as possible, they said not a problem. Oh, I asked about the cord cutting and whether there was any purpose to delay and they said that they already delay a little, but it wasn't a long delay.

Actually, I did talk about that with Dr. Weinstein before we went in. And she talked that through with me and she said, we can give it extra time if that's something that you're comfortable with, but we don't want to delay too long because we want to get you closed back up and dah, dah,

Lisa: Sure.

Liza: But no, she did talk, I remember I talked about the cord cutting and I talked about Yeah.

Jon: There wasn't a lot.

Liza: There wasn't a lot. I think that for the most part, they asked if we wanted the sheet down and we were like, nope! We don't need to see which I don't regret that at all. I don't know. As someone who's had surgeries before. I didn't need to see any part of that. I think that a lot of women who give birth by C-section, we don't feel like the warrior mama kind of thing that a lot of women say. And you feel like it's, is it not a natural birth? It's not a, whatever birth.

Lisa: That's unfortunate.

Liza: It took me a minute to get past which I do think every woman should get past. The experience that you have is unique and if it's what's necessary for you and your child and for you to both healthily pass through this experience together. Is it the same kind of story as the friend I have that had 36 hours of labor and dah, dah, dah, and my story is actually a little calmer, it's got its own, it's got its own twists and turns, but I think that the big part of me was like, a lot of it's about the story. And do I have the kind of, I'm a tough mama kind of story. I will always be like being a mom is hard in general and getting cut open, not the easiest thing in the world then recovering from that

Lisa: Absolutely.

Liza: while being a new mother is a whole other thing. But yeah, I don't, I don't think we made a lot of requests for the procedure itself because there was so much about it where it's like, I'm just gonna go with what you guys say is probably the best scenario there.

Lisa: Great.

Liza: And they did ask if John wanted to cut, which he did not. But they did offer and trying to think if there was anything else. I really don't think so. It was more just like, like, don't keep him for a long time. Like I want us to be the first real thing that he's around and that very much happened. was beautiful. They brought him right away. And then when we went into the OR they, he was with me the whole time. They didn't take him back and forth or whatever. And then he latched like in the, OR I was like, let's just see breastfeeding was going to be something I wasn't sure if it was possible for me because of past surgeries.

But he latched right away, which was the craziest feeling in the world. So Russell just literally right out of the OR we tried right away just to start. And it was just, I mean, you say that everything became real when you were by yourself getting gowned up. I think everything became real, like he was in my arms after the surgery, then when he latched onto my breast right away, I was like, oh, we're in this together.

Like, this is okay. All right. Sure I'm about to produce something for you and I'm going to see what I can do, but no matter what, I'm going to make sure you're okay forever. Cause that's now my job and whoa, this is odd. It was the most like primal, we're all animals kind of feeling I've ever experienced. Humans are just another animal and we all need the same stuff and we make it way more complicated than it needs to be. But that was first thing where it was just, oh my God, this is so real. Like, and he Russell, I mean, he was seven pounds, five

Jon: 7-5. 18, and a half inches.

Liza: 18 a half inches long 7-5. So he wasn't big or small. He was, I think of average ish. Right. But there was something about it where it was like, that's what was inside me? Oh my God. just so weird. I didn't know he'd come out looking so cute. I thought he'd be weirder looking. We definitely thought we were going to have a seriously weird looking child. Cause you know, we're both gorgeous. I don't, he is just beautiful and I was just so confused and overwhelmed in the best way possible. But yeah, we were just in the OR and he was just latched and sucking right away. And I just stared for a while and didn't know what to do. It was just odd.

Lisa: Yeah. With a breech baby and with a C-section a lot of the time you're not going to have that alien conehead. He probably had this beautiful head.

Liza: He did. It's kinda, it had some knobby-ness on the back, which cracked me up. And one of the, oh, I think Dr. Greening even made a joke about where his head might've been resting because of the way one of the cheeks was. I can't remember exactly; it was hilarious.

Lisa: John, what about, any, any reflections on your part as to the moments of Russell's birth or afterwards, anything like emotions that you were feeling, or, or was it really the time when you were alone? That was like the most.

Jon: In the warmup, so to speak, or the preamble, whatever you wanna call it. That was kind of when reality kind of sunk in that, that birth was going to happen. Cause I was the first one of the two of us, I mean, like I was, I saw him first just because I was upright. I mean, I was sitting up right. And I had a direct line to where they'd taken him to get cleaned up and make sure they bundled him up and everything. And then it's really just kind of a sense of awe and knowing this is our child, this is, this is something that we created you know, together and then being able to hold them. And then, mean, I had never changed a diaper in my life before this. And so like learning how to change a diaper is, it's like

Liza: Which he learned in your class.

Jon: There's that sense of pride in that, it's an immediate burst of pride where you're learning how to do this thing so that you can be the provider, so that you can do for your child. And so, I mean, I think primal is actually a very appropriate description. Because it's very much a, just the sense of love and wanting to nurture and wanting to shelter and protect. Anytime that I would have to leave the room for anything, once Liza was in a room, even if I was just jumping down the hall to use the restroom or to go refill her water pitcher or whatever it was, there's that immediate, just almost kind of an immediate sense of panic, where, because now that I'm not in the immediate vicinity of this creature that can't do for itself. So.

Liza: So helpless.

Jon: Yeah, but really just, the word awesome is very overused in the English language for a number of things, but to see my child be obviously, not when he first came out, but

Liza: Although you told me he was beautiful cause you could see him first. I remember being like, what's going on? What's going on? You're like he's beautiful.

Jon: Yeah.

Liza: I was like, he's gotta be gross right now, what are you talking about? You're like, no, he's beautiful.

Jon: Yeah, absolutely.

Liza: And then they brought him over. I was like, oh my God. He's beautiful.

Jon: Yeah, really just an overwhelming sense of awe is probably the closest that I can explain. And just to know that this child is ours and now our lives are very much second. I'm not living my life for myself, you know, I'm living it for my family and I'm living here for my wife and I'm now living it for my child and so you always hear the cliche of a life can be clearly delineated by, you know, pre-kids and post-kids and that's very much true because now life really begins anew, it's a completely new chapter in what you're doing, with just this added major layer of having a child.

Liza: He's just so tiny and helpless and it was just like, oh my God, you literally are going to need everything. Like you can't do any, oh my God, every, oh, everything, everything you're going to need everything. It was just like, you can't even roll over yet. You can't lift your head. You can't do. And I've held newborns before, but it was just.

Jon: But let's be clear, there were also many times existentially where I'd step back and I'd go whose kid is this?

Lisa: It's so surreal.

Liza: Oh so still surreal.

Jon: Man what irresponsible person left their kid here and more so what entire building of medical professionals let us walk out of here with a baby.

Lisa: I did want to ask Liza if you, from a physiological standpoint, I think it's really beneficial that you were able to go into spontaneous labor and experience the cascade of hormones and things, but that doesn't mean that you perceive it as having been your ideal thing. If you had to go back and design it, would you have wanted it to happen that way? Or would you have preferred to just show up and have the scheduled C-section without having any labor?

Liza: No, I actually like, it made more sense to me. A lot of, I don't have a perfect way to say this and I don't know exactly how to word it, but in hindsight, knowing the child that we have, it made perfect sense, but also like just life does not like plans that's the thing that always had-- I struggled a lot during pregnancy with wondering if I was doing something wrong before we knew he was breech I didn't have a perfect birth plan and everything I read was about your birth plan, your birth plan. And my experience with life is that you can make plans, but just be ready to throw it out the window because life does not, and still does not work, in any way that you want it to or think it should. Like my, all my colleagues will laugh because the word should is literally my least favorite word ever, because it's just ridiculous.

There's no should. Stuff's going to happen. have you developed into the kind of person that can roll with it and you can have influence on it. But you hopefully will be able to influence things, but also recognize that control is kind of an illusion sometimes.

 And especially if you're about to enter into parenthood. My older sister is an amazing person, but we always used to joke that her children were going to be like the Von Trapp kids and trained by whistle. And she definitely, if she was gonna enter into parenthood, was gonna have her kids trained perfect. She's an amazing mother and her kids are brilliant and wonderful but I'm a much more fly by the seat of my pants. Like I'm organized and I'm type a, but I'm a little more silly and creative and different in that way. Everything that you read when you're pregnant, says that you're supposed to have an idea of what birth is supposed to look like for you. I really didn't. I was like, I can't even picture being a mom. I've always been a maternal type person, but I have no idea because I don't know what kind of kid I'm about to have. Because this kid, have no idea what their personality is going to be like. I'm pretty sure you see right away. I learned that we really did right away, our kid's amazing and he keeps us on our toes and he will forever, but he's brilliant and ridiculous and you know, we're both weird, so we knew there'd be weird.

I felt like I was doing something wrong for a bit because I didn't have a birth plan. But I asked my doctor one day during the pregnancy checkups and I said to Dr. Greening, I was like, listen, I have a weird question. We're about to go on the tour. And I don't have a birth plan and everybody says you're supposed to have a birth plan written out and supposed to have an idea and maybe that's just not me? I don't want to have a vision and then it not go that way because that just seems ridiculous to me, I feel like that's going to stress me more. If I have a particular expectation, I kind of would rather go in with no expectations and like, all right, let's see how this is going to party. Like we're going to figure it out as we go, because that's a lot of life. You have a lot of building blocks, but for the most part, you figure it out as you go.

It's kind of how I'm approaching a lot of parenting. I read, I do research, but in the end we see how it goes. And then if it doesn't work, we try something else. There's no cookie cutter answer for anything. So in terms of pregnancy and giving birth, it kind of was going to be the same thing for me. I think that the way things turned out. I would want it to go the exact same way. I think that number one, I think it was almost a gift to go into labor instead of like having the time to wake up until the surgery and being like, okay, we have 48 hours until we're going to do this. We have 24 hours until we're going to do this. My personality is that I'm not, well, I've become a worrywart now that I'm a mom and it's changed certain things about me that I'm still getting used to. I think the pandemic helped that a lot. I never was an anxious person. I've been struggling with some anxiety,

Lisa: Yeah, us

Liza: I've talked with a lot of friends about this. Like I knew about depression personally and I became friends with my depression since teenagehood and we just know each other and we know how to get along together.

And it's not something that's ever completely gone, but we are good friends. And anxiety is something that I, since the pandemic I've had to learn about, but my worry levels like I'm the person that doesn't stress about something the entire time until it happens, like some people, but I'm the person that like I'm fine until like it's go time. And then it all is oh god! I'm so glad I got to experience going into labor, even though it's not the most pleasant experience, contractions are a um.

Although I will say they apparently, when they found out how far along I was and how dilated I was and whatnot, they were like, you, most women would have come in earlier. How long have you been going through contractions? I was like, I think a day and a half, they were like what!?

Lisa: Ah, do you remember how dilated when you were when you got there?

Liza: Oh, shoot.

Lisa: It's ok if you don't I was just curious.

Liza: It was like close to six. I don't remember. Pretty dilated. But they'd still could feel his butt so, nothing was changing. They did check, I remember that, to make sure that a c-section was still necessary. Cause we asked about that. We're like, is he still in the same spot?

Lisa: Yeah, sometimes do somersaults.

Liza: Yeah

Jon: You could be on the table ready to go, and then if all of a sudden he flipped, they're going to stop and then

Liza: They would have done a vaginal birth.

Jon: That was something that was certainly on my mind about like, oh my God, if we have this whole buildup to, we know we're going to have a C-section we know we're going to do this, and then to be 11:59 and all of a sudden, oh wait, stop. That would have been a whole different story.

Liza: I'm glad I know what your water breaking feels like. I'm glad I know what my body feels like when it was telling me it was time, because it was nice to have that talk. I wouldn't change it at all. I think that it made sense for us. And because I was working, I was a medical social worker, I was on my feet all the time, running around. My plan was to work until I popped or until the date of the C-section. And so I definitely left my work in a bit of a lurch which I didn't mean to. I leave everything in perfect shape, so obviously everything was fine, but I had thought I had one more week. But it just, it was right for us. And I'm very glad (yeah you thought you had one more week.) It was right for us in everything that life has taught me. Don't think that you know exactly what's going to happen or you can control it, cause you can't.

Jon: Nope.

Liza: Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, you have the mindset that whatever comes, you will figure it out step-by-step and I was fortunate enough to have chosen a partner that made this all make sense. I mean, we didn't know that we were going to do this when we first got together. I mean, I was raised to assume I was always going to have kids and then the older I got, I was like, well, I don't really know if I'm going to get married or do any of that. We'll see. And I waited, I was fortunate to have nice relationships but no one who I wanted for my forever until I found the one that I was like, oh god oh okay. Yeah you the forever. Okay cool. Let's do that. And then we decided that we wanted to expand our family. We talked very clearly while we were together that by choosing each other, we were already a family and we just wanted to decide if we wanted to grow the family. I don't like when people, I dunno, it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. You're already a family and you're just bringing your expanding or growing your family. It's not that having a kid makes you a family. Yeah, that doesn't start your family.

You are a family. Yeah. Our family, we have beautiful friends, I mean we have a really wonderful tribe. I mean our relationship alone like things you just don't know what the hell's going to happen in life. But our kid has shown us that you figure it out together. You kind of just work together. I'm glad it happened as it did. I think that it made sense in a totally nonsensical way.

Lisa: And I love that you shared a little bit about your love for each other as a couple. One of the things that stands out in my mind from having you in birth class was you really stood out amongst so many couples I've taught over the years and worked with over the years. Families that are so loving and so connected and just I just feel like you're a perfect for each other and I was like, I've got to have them on the podcast because they're so funny. They're such great storytellers. They just really are affectionate with each other. And so loving. And so I just wanted to affirm that. That's such a beautiful, all too rare, thing. So, well, in our last few minutes, we're running out of time here, but, and I really, I know before we hit record, we were talking about maybe, hoping to have time to elaborate on, the whole breastfeeding journey. I don't think we really have time for that, but--

Liza: I can tell a super short version if you wanted.

Lisa: Yeah. go ahead. Yeah. Would you do that? Cause I think it could be beneficial for listeners

Liza: Yeah. For all the women out there who I am a very unique soul. Okay. Short version. And if anyone has questions, I'll give Lisa my information. So if you'd like to reach out and talk more about this, it's a very sensitive topic. So I was born where as I matured and went through puberty, it turned out that I basically was very asymmetrical with my breasts. When I was 18, the summer before college, I had reconstructive surgery. I had one side of an implant and one side of a reduction. So I basically kind of had like a, I think it was like a D and an A, and I had a very interesting childhood and pubescent time. And that's a whole other thing, but one of the biggest things was that I knew that if I, number one, I was petrified that if I ever had a kid, if I ever had a girl, I didn't know if that was genetically something that you pass on. Cause that is not the easiest thing to grow up with. So that was a whole other part of my journey, which I was told by doctors, it didn't mean that it would, it didn't mean that it wouldn't, there was no way to know, but we ended up having Russell where we'll see how he feels about his body and how he grows. But breastfeeding was going to be a big question for me. I was told that it was totally possible to still be able to breastfeed, but it's different for every woman, and you don't know. My surgery was also so long ago that I couldn't provide details about the surgery because the doctor who did it doesn't really exist anymore.

And I was 18. and I don't have records from it and everything. So I was told that the more likely breast that would produce would have been the implant breast and the reduction breast, because that's when the nipple is taken off and put back that that was possibly going to be less likely to produce.

What ended up happening was they told me to start pumping right away. So literally Russell latched and he had some time where nothing was coming out, we were pretty sure. And so literally, as soon as I was brought into a room, they brought me a breast pump and I started pumping immediately to see if we could, because I was also early.

I went into labor earlier than we had thought. There was talk about whether I would start pumping before the actual C-section. There were different theories about how we could get production going, because it might've been difficult. But so the short version of a very emotional journey was that I wasn't able to produce from both breasts.

However, the implant breast did produce better. The reduction breast really, it was very little. So we know Russell got colostrum in the beginning, which was for my sanity for some reason, a very important thing for me. And I did produce milk, but it was very little. So we ended up supplementing with formula early on.

So I was doing breasts and then supplementing. And while supplementing, pumping. I pretty much had like maybe 30 minute breaks, if even, in the beginning. So I breastfed for about two months, but it was a very emotional, big struggle for me because the production there wasn't much happening.

I did talk to lactation specialists. I talked to my doctors, then we tried to see what I could do. And then it was just not working for me and my sanity. I was really struggling with how often I was pumping, I felt like I was attached to it all the time and barely producing a bottle. So that was a hard journey. But I think that once we shifted to formula two months in, to just formula, I actually had moments to just enjoy my baby. It was the right answer for us. It took me a minute to get there because I felt like I was doing something wrong if I didn't try every single thing possible.

And I think that women are burdened a lot with that, but I'm very glad he got something from me at the beginning and they say the colostrum is the magic stuff and

Lisa: Yeah.

Liza: That was big but--

Lisa: That's something to celebrate. I think that's fantastic.

Liza: The fact that my body produced at all, I didn't think that anything was going to come out. So I actually cried when I first saw that there were things coming out and that I could express. It was crazy, but it ended up not being what was going to work for him. We shifted gears.

Lisa: Or you, or you it's important you matter, too.

Liza: Or me.

Lisa: Absolutely.

Liza: Or me. Yeah, and John was always just Insanely supportive and he's like: listen I don't want to put this all on you, but whatever you want to do is what I will support. And you know this is really a bit of a decision for you. Do you want to keep pumping? Keep pumping and see what happens.

But if you feel like this is just not working fed is best. And we just want for you both to be okay. And that's all that matters and you were right. And it took me a couple of days. And then I was like, all right. And my doctor also was very supportive. She was like, do you need a doctor to tell you that it's okay to stop? And I was like, maybe she's like, yeah it's okay.

Lisa: Sometimes that helps, yeah.

Liza: It was, I kinda needed permission to not feel like a horrible mother, a horrible woman. For women who have had surgery for whatever reason, there is the possibility of breastfeeding. Sometimes it's a little more complicated. Implants will produce more than reductions most of the time, but even that's not true and who knows what your body will do.

But I think just don't be afraid to change the plan and see what works for you. I have friends who just went straight to formula right away, because they just weren't comfortable with that idea and that concept and they didn't want to use their bodies that way. Okay. You know. We all gotta do what we gotta do and we all got to do what feels right. So that was our breastfeeding journey was an emotional roller coaster with very little sleep. But I'm glad that I the same as I got the experience of going into labor, glad I got the experience of breastfeeding my child for the time that I did because it is a very intimate, beautiful connection. And I'm really glad I got to have that a little and it was really, really special.

Lisa: Yeah and Russell got that benefit of lining the gut with that great colostrum that really to date, they haven't quite been able to replicate and really is so, so beneficial for his lifelong immune system you know, so I think just really golden. That's awesome.

Liza: Yeah.

Lisa: Oh for podcast listeners, they're smooching.

Liza: Lots of memories. Lots of memories.

Lisa: Well so as we wind things down here, are there that you haven't gotten to share yet that you wanted to share and then I might ask you to share about your baking.

Liza: I only have one thing. There was a time in the hospital. We were both so out of our minds tired, but there was a time where Jon was away getting something. Maybe he was filling the ice pitcher, whatever. It was just Russell and me and he was crying and he didn't want to feed and nothing was working. And I was just like, oh my God, what do you need?

And I just started making silly sounds and faces. And he just looked, it like startled him into whatever, not scared him, but he just like looked at me and kind of like grinned and there was a moment where I was like, oh right. And John got back. And I was like, I had an epiphany.

He said, what? I was like, who are the weirdest people you know? He's like, us. I was like, yes. We need to embrace the weird, if we can embrace the weird, we're going to be able to do all of this. We need to not think that we know the right thing to do based on what we've read. This is our child. We are weird.

He's going to respond to weird and we should just go with that. People will tell you what techniques worked with their children. Don't compare and contrast. Like other things will work maybe, but whatever thing that is comfortable for you and just out there do whatever you need to that's safe, but embrace the weird, that was my like motto early on. Embracing the weird helped with, because we had a very colicky baby also.

Um, oh my God. He had so much GI stuff. We figured a lot of it out later, but he was super gassy and he had reflux and all these things. I would rock him in this very particular way, because it was how I like to feel when I'm in a pool and it worked because it would just-- so, embrace your weird. That's the best advice I can give anyone, but your weird. Nobody else's.

Jon: Yeah.

Liza: That's what's going to connect. And when the kid is crying and won't stop, try something weird. It goes really well.

Jon: Yeah. And really to piggy back on top of that is to really just trust your gut, which may seem like a no brainer, but it's really just-- because a lot of the stuff that I was thinking of there and that I imagine now, obviously now with the power of hindsight is more of like the practical stuff, in terms of like logistics and getting back home and things like that.

But really, once your kid shows up, your instincts are going to kick in whether you know it or not. At least that's been my experience, and so whenever you're faced with a question or a decision, it's very difficult and I recognize that, but to really just trust your instinct and just go with it and generally it's going to work out. It seems very kind of abstract, but your instincts kind of just naturally and immediately develop whether you're aware of it or not. And then furthermore, to trust that process, then that decision making process and it'll work out.

Liza: But it's also okay to feel like you have no clue what you're doing.

Jon: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah.

Lisa: For sure. One of the things I heard, I love "Embrace your weird." I absolutely love that. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but part of what I interpret that to mean is levity and humor well.

Liza: 100 percent.

Jon: You need it.

Lisa: You two are so great at that, I and my husband is really great at that. And that's one of the things I adore about him. And it has been so useful in the parenting journey. Because when you're taking things too seriously, you're taking yourself too seriously, that's when things get bad and ick. You know?

Liza: Yeah.

Lisa: And you just need that levity to lighten things up and to not take yourself or your baby or your partner too seriously, right. So that's kind of where I went with a little bit, at least an aspect of the "Embrace your weird."

Liza: Yeah. I agree. I like that.

Jon: I can't believe how much time I spend narrating things in song.

 Because he likes songs and he likes just, yeah, he just likes a tune.

Liza: The master demands songs all the time.

Jon: And I can't believe how much of my day is spent in song just for the sole purpose of his amusement.

Lisa: That's fantastic. I adore that. You're speaking my language. I always made up songs for my kids.

Liza: We have songs for everything. We have a toothbrushing song, a lotioning song, a hand-washing, song all of it. And he starts to, he interacts with it and he kind of sings it back. He's not even two years old.

Lisa: It's a way

Liza: If he's upset, first thing you do is start singing any stuff. It's amazing.

Lisa: As he gets a little older well, I don't, I don't know if this is necessary in Florida, but in New York, I just, I really wanted my kids to know our address. And so I came up with a song for the address and a song when we would find a parking spot to celebrate that's another kind of New York thing.

Liza: No, he's laughing. Cause I still remember my father, my, I come from a singing background and my dad taught us our phone number and our address with intervals and song. And I still remember my childhood address and phone number. Cause I could sing it as a kid and he would prompt us. He'd be like, what's your address little girl? And we'd sing it back. And then what's your phone number? And we'd sing it back. And that was how he got us to memorize things.

So, and I did that throughout my life through studying all of it. Everything put to music is a little easier.

Lisa: Right. It is. It really sticks with you. Like nothing else.

Liza: Yeah. Yeah. We joke if we started a podcast about parenting, it would be called "All the Books Are Wrong". Because everything with Russell has been so opposite. Like, they said that the lotioning was gonna be this relaxing, beautiful time for you and your baby.

And Russell's all [fussy noises] and he's all over the place and cracking up. And then the baby is going to be afraid of the drain and the big tub. And he immediately goes to the drain and he wants to play with it. So we joke that all the books are wrong and the only thing we know is that anytime he's fussing about anything, you turn it into a song. He's fine.

Yeah.

Lisa: Please start that podcast. I will be your first fan.

Liza: All the books are wrong.

Lisa: Yes I love it I love it great.

Liza: Sounds good.

Lisa: All right, well, last thing I would love for you to share about is your baking

Jon: So the way that the progression of time played out was Russell was born and Liza, obviously went on leave first. I was home for three weeks and then I went back to work for five weeks and then I went on parental leave.

And the week, that I was to go back to work full time we had gotten his daycare set up and everything like that. And then New York City shut down due to the current global pandemic.

Liza: The day he was supposed to start daycare is the day they all closed.

Jon: That was a Monday. And then that Wednesday, I was working for a hospitality group and, I, along with 2000 other employees of the group were laid off all in one shot because everything was shutting down. And so at first I had the hilarious idea to try and educate myself and be able to develop a new skillset which sounds great on paper. Doesn't work that way with a newborn because by the time the baby is fed, burped, maybe interacted with, depending on how the baby is feeling, maybe not, put down for a nap up from the immediate roundup chaos, 46 minutes, give or take before you have to do it all over again, to wake the baby up to then feed it again.

So uh, and we

Liza: which our baby didn't sleep,

Jon: Which our baby didn't sleep

Liza: So sleeping was waking him up, was never an issue and he did not sleep. He still doesn't sleep. This is great. He's sleeping now.

Jon: So I was trying to learn how to code how to do computer programming because I'm thinking, well, cause I don't know what this global pandemic is going to do, and childcare is now off the table, it's really just me. So if I can work from home and, in erratic hours, then cool, I can make that work, but I didn't have the time or the wherewithal or the bandwidth to dedicate the necessary hours of learning a new skill like that.

So I had started just kind of on a whim really, I started baking cookies. Really I mean, to be clear, just a very thinly veiled excuse for me to just bake and eat cookies, because I'm home all day, just because it was something that I could start and stop in intervals that fit with that very small window of time that I had where I didn't need to immediately do anything. So, I would make something, I would try it and then it's okay, fine. And then it kind of just kind of grew organically to where I'd bake something, I'd try it and then I'd give it away to friends and have them try it. Then it just kind of slowly try to evolve it and just kind of try to grow it more because again, you know, it was something tangible that I could do. And it was something that I could do again in my own time that didn't require, I mean, I still don't have a solid understanding of how things work in the baking world and why, but it's just something that I do and that I could work towards. So now it's kind of become it's own grassroots thing and I've only been selling to friends of friends.

Liza: Friends of friends of friends.

Jon: Friends of friends of friends. I still haven't had just a complete random person, though.

Liza: We're still, we've gotten random followers, so there's @shyabwais_cookies on Instagram. Yep.

Lisa: I need you to spell that if you could, and then I'll include it on the notes page

Liza: yeah. So Shyabwai is S H Y A B W A I Shyabwai

Lisa: But then it has S at the end right? And then underscore cookies that your Instagram handle?

Jon: Yes, Shyabwai's yeah. Underscore cookies, I S underscore cookies

And the name comes from, it comes just from an inside joke with my brother that just makes me smile. Liza suggested to use it as the name and I liked the idea and I just ran with it.

Liza: He and his brothers say it all the time and it always makes them laugh. I'm like, there was no like Jon's cookies, Miller's cookies, whatever like cookies. There was no right name, but he loves the holler, oh, holler atcha boy. And I was like, all right, you love that word. It's a ridiculous word. And no one can say it and no one can spell it. Go for it.

Lisa: And I think you mentioned Liza that some breastfeeding friends have loved having them on hand.

Liza: Oh, my God. So I've become the social media manager of Shyabwai's Cookies on Instagram. I'm doing my best I have no idea what I'm doing, much like everything else.

Lisa: Well those photos are gorgeous. The cookies look amazing.

Rainbow marshmallow-filled Lucky Charms cookies

Liza: I'm trying, we've gotten lots of different followers that are random, but we haven't gotten random orders yet. We hope to. The cutest thing is that we have now sent the cookies to women who are at the very end stage of pregnancy. So they've had them as pregnancy cravings and then had them as breastfeeding snacks. And it's been so cute because they're like these are so amazing and I deserve this. It's like yes. Everything that you're doing you deserve these insane cookies.

Each one's like five ounce. They're all homemade. John makes them with tons of love. But so breastfeeding friends say that they are a wonderful breastfeeding snack. I'm going to say that they are great for breakfast, lunch, or dinner. He has like 11 or 12 flavors right now and they're obscenely good. Yeah, basically pregnant and breastfeeding women have gone crazy over these and, the cutest things is that friends send us pictures with their either baby's hand or tiny child's hand, trying to steal the cookie, and that's always cute. So it does seem to be, it's become a big part of that world. And we like that the first cookie Russell tried was a Shyabwai cookie.

 So yeah, it's a passion project that's made with a lot of love.

Jon: It's something that I enjoy doing especially during a pandemic has certainly been cathartic in a way.

Liza: Jon's belief, is that the right way to eat a cookie is a medium rare cookie. So I think that what's special about these is when they're shipped you can eat them right away, but you can freeze them or eat them right away. But he sends them with instructions of how long to put them in the oven so that when you are going to eat them, they're just right. And I think that's what people get a kick out of because your home smells like fresh baked cookies. You barely have to do anything.

Lisa: You feel like you did it.

Liza: You feel like you did the work, your home smells amazing, and then you open it up to this gooey perfect, amazing medium rare cookie, which most people don't think about a cookie is medium rare, but they should be. Oh my god, so good.

Lisa: Thank you so much Liza and Jon. It's great to see you.

Liza: Thank you for having us.

Lisa: Take care.

Liza: All right, you take care. Good to talk. Bye.