Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 80 - A Rainbow Breech Baby’s Belly Birth

In honor of last week’s Black Maternal health week as well as in observation of cesarean awareness month, we’re sharing today’s story of a mom who identifies as Black and needed to have a cesarean due to baby’s breech position. 

After Amber experienced both a pregnancy loss and subsequent challenges conceiving a second time, she and her husband eventually conceive their rainbow baby on the first try with IUI. At 18 weeks, they learn their baby is breech, and she continues to be persistently breech, despite trying a number of things to help baby flip. Amber has to make a mental shift in expectations from desiring a physiologic birth to normalizing the necessary cesarean and comes to the realization that it can also be a beautiful way for a baby to be born. She also shares the importance of actively seeking out support through fellow expectant and new parents and some of the specific ways she found that support.

Resources:

Pregnancy Loss:

Breech Position & Cesarean:

Sponsor links:

*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.

Episode Topics:

  • Importance of finding community

  • First pregnancy ended in miscarriage at 7.5 weeks

  • Second pregnancy was IUI, worked on first try

  • Sick through whole pregnancy, had weird nosebleeds and yet 

  • Finding out breech around 18 weeks

  • Tried ECV at 36 weeks

  • Choosing care provider

  • Choosing doula

  • Find support -- fellow expectant and new parents

  • Reddit

  • Picking date for cesarean based around work schedule around 39 weeks

  • Going in early in morning 

  • Bring donuts to the nurses

  • Arriving at triage and lots of hospital staff come in to talk to you 

  • Surprised by how long they waited – about 1.5 hrs before epidural administered & prepped for surgery

  • Getting the epidural, warning them she has vasovagal syncope

  • She passes out and everyone panics, very brief

  • Warning everyone she’s going to vomit, then vomits

  • Everything smoothe after that

  • Playing their own playlists -- Broods  - “Full Blown Love”

  • Requested clear sheet, but this hospital didn’t have it

  • Delayed cord clamping

  • Could take pics but not video

  • Emile went with baby and cut the cord, watched suctioning, footprint

  • Pain management after birth -- stay on top of it

  • Laugh but support the incision while laughing

  • Get out of the house

  • Tell the truth, be vulnerable with your support system

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Hi, Amber, how are you doing today?

Amber: Hi, Lisa. I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.

Lisa: I am so looking forward to hearing your baby's birth story and your whole journey. So could you please first start us out by just introducing yourself?

Amber: Yeah. My name is Amber Sfitzpatrick. I live in Tarrytown, New York. My husband and I moved here during the pandemic, at the height of the pandemic, around November from Manhattan where we lived before. We're both in tech. I am in user experience at a law firm and my husband works for a big tech company.

And yeah, we found your birthing class through the, you know, Next Door and all of those sort of community applications. And yeah, that's what brought us to where we are today.

Lisa: And one of my favorite memories of your fairly small cohort was that when you graduated, you stayed on zoom and chatted for, I think it was like an hour and a half. And I just was like, this is amazing. Now I know you were already friends with one of the couples, but I still just was like, I love that they're connecting because especially in the virtual format, I've felt sad that it's a little trickier to make those connections.

Amber: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel, and that's one of the things I want to talk about because I think it's so important to find that community. I'm so glad I sort of met the friend that I met, that we joined the birth class together. I met on Next Door. We had just moved to the area together. We were both really pregnant and we're still friends with some of the people in those classes were like, we're all still friends.

We stayed on class for a long time because you know, you click with people. And especially, I think pregnancy during a pandemic is something that it's a once a century sort of thing that we all went through and having people that are going through what you're going through, building a community when you can't physically be in touch is so important.

And we are, I know we're going to be friends for the rest of our lives because of what we, because of your class and because we were able to share and be so vulnerable and no matter how much family you have, or don't have close by when you're in a pandemic, you're locked in your house. So we had each other, you know, so I definitely encourage people, seek out a birthing class, go to Lisa's birthing class

Lisa: thanks.

Amber: Because it really does make a difference, you know, and we were all in very different stages of pregnancy. Right? I believe I was the first one. I was the first one to give birth. And then one of our, I think the last pregnancy just the last person just gave birth just a few weeks ago.

Lisa: I need to check in with her.

Amber: Oh, yeah. Yep, yep. And they're doing great, but yeah.

Lisa: Didn't they come up to Tarrytown and have like a brunch with you?

Amber: We all hang out. We hang out all the time. It's great.

It's great. We're all very good friends; it's just awesome.

Lisa: Beautiful.

Amber: The play dates are already being planned.

Lisa: Ah, yes. Yes, yes!

Amber: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

Lisa: That's great. Well, thank you. So can you share a little bit about, anything you'd like to share about your conception journey as well as how your pregnancy went and how you prepared for this transition into parenthood.

Amber: Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know if I said I gave birth about three months ago, my baby's 15 weeks.

Lisa: Oh yes. Thank you.

Amber: And so it's still in the early stages, but I would say this the three month mark is sort of the mark where you, you kind of start to feel like, you know what you're doing a little bit, which you warned us about.

Yes, exactly. The fog of having a newborn and sleep deprivation that no one can prepare you for. But our conception journey was interesting. Right. We had started trying in the fall of 2019. And then shortly after we started trying, we were successful and got pregnant and then at seven and a half weeks, we had a miscarriage.

And the thing you see on television, the thing you see, you know, you read everywhere, you look it's positive pregnancy test, and then baby nine months later, right. You don't see a lot. I think in the media only in the past year, maybe, have you started to see people talk more about loss and sort of, we see it on TV and you're starting to see it in movies, but it's so common. I think the number is as high as 25% of all pregnancies end in a loss.

And I remember thinking to myself that would have been really useful information to have when I started this journey. And I think the theme of not only our conception journey, but my pregnancy, my postpartum period, is expectation. Having the right expectation going in can really change how you feel about everything that's happening.

Because if you, if you don't have the right expectation, you'll be devastated. And honestly, even if I knew that 25% of all pregnancies end in loss I would have been devastated. It's a horrifying thing to go through, but it's so normal. It happens all the time and knowing that you're not alone and it's nothing you did.

I remember my doctor calling me after she found out when I canceled my appointment, my first appointment that I had made weeks prior, I called to cancel. And my doctor wasn't available at the time I called and she called me back and said, I just want you to know there is nothing you did. You didn't exercise too much.

You didn't eat the wrong thing. You didn't do the wrong thing. It was nothing that you did. It just, wasn't a right match, the egg and the sperm. It wasn't a good match. That's it. And first of all, I think find a provider that will do that.

Lisa: Yes, the compassion piece, the empathy. Yeah.

Amber: Whether you have a midwife or you want to give birth in a hospital or at a birthing center or at your house, whatever it is, make sure you find a medical team and a provider that you really trust. Yeah, it's hugely important. So we have that loss in the fall and got back on the horse, kept trying, kept trying, and kept trying.

But at a certain point we'd gotten pregnant so early to start that at a certain point, you become really impatient, really, really impatient. I think this is true. Even if you don't have a loss, it's easy to get impatient once you start wanting to have a baby. So we decided to go ahead and do fertility treatments.

So we went and did IUI and we were successful the first time, which is pretty rare.

Lisa: Yeah, I've had heard so many stories of like six, seven tries on IUI and then shifting to IVF. Oh, wow. Great.

Amber: Yeah. Yeah. And I think so I'm proof that it can happen the very first time. And then I would say my pregnancy was not an easy pregnancy. I definitely still have a little PTSD about people that say, oh, I just felt like a little tired. I still a little bit hate those people. I love you. I love you all.

And I'm so happy for you if that's you. But I also, there's a tiny part of me that will resent you forever because I had such a hard time. And most people I think have a terrible first trimester. Then the second trimester you kind of come out of it. I was sick up until the day I gave birth.

Lisa: Oh, that's rough.

Amber: That being said, I loved being pregnant.

Even with being sick all the time. I had gestational diabetes. I had, you know, if you name it, I have it. I had weird nosebleeds. That's a pregnancy symptom no one tells you about, you could just have nosebleeds a couple of times a week. Everything that I could possibly have I had, but it was still amazing.

There's still something really wonderful about walking around your neighborhood with a big old belly and knowing that your body is doing something absolutely incredible. Then your sleep, your body's working at a hundred. It's amazing. So it was great. It was wonderful. And then as you know, Lisa and the rest of your audience doesn't know I had a breech baby.

We learned this right around the time we started going to birthing class and I did all the things I did, the Spinning Babies. I did the inversions. I did everything they tell you to do to try to flip your baby. I had rose quartz there. I did all the woo stuff too. I did the pseudo-science. All of it. You name it?

I did it. They were like, you know, spin around three times and throw salt over your right shoulder. I did it. I did it. And I believed, but my baby had other plans. And I think there's something that you said in birth class that really resonated with me, which is that there are little people, there are people in there. They have their own ideas.

Lisa: Yeah, they will, they have a personality.

Amber: Yup. So it was mind definitely had a will and, and her own personality. And so, because she was breech we decided to go ahead and try and do an external cephalic version, which is the process where they try and physically move the baby from the outside. For anyone out there who's listening, who has a breech baby and wants to know about that process, it's not as bad as I had been told it would be, I had been told it would be the worst pain ever. It was bearable, it was doable. Don't worry. It's not the worst. It didn't work though. And so we scheduled a C-section.

Lisa: And just backing up just a second. Do you remember how many weeks you were approximately when they told you that maybe was breech and then how many weeks were you when they did the ECV?

Amber: Yeah, they were, I was 36 weeks when they did the ECV, I remember. And she had been in the same breech position since about the anatomy scan at 18 weeks. She just sort of planted herself in one spot and just hung out there for the rest of the pregnancy. So every time we went in at first, we kind of thought it was a fluke, right.

Every time we went in for an ultrasound, she would be in that position and they were like, we don't know, she might be moving. And I'm thinking, I don't think so, but what do I know? It's my first child. No, I was right. She wasn't, she wasn't moving.

And I mean, I had really initially wanted to have, like the crunchiest unmedicated birth that I possibly could have. I wanted spa music and candles and crystals and all of it. I didn't want a lot of medical intervention. I had a lot of plans. And the thing I will say again, expectations, right?

No matter what kind of birth you want, no matter what kind of birth you dream of, hold on to that. Right. Speak it into existence. We work so hard on speaking what we want into reality, and that's really important, but also know that that can shift at any moment along the way. And I think, and I've talked to you a lot about this.

A lot of birth trauma is related to not having the right expectations and feeling a loss of control when things change and feeling like things are sort of happening to you and at you without your consent and without your permission. And no one's explaining anything and it can get really scary and hectic if you're not prepared. And while I think it's true of, of childbirth and pregnancy and raising a child in general, that you can't prepare for everything.

Lisa: True.

Amber: I think you can give yourself the gift of flexibility. You can go ahead and say, I want this type of birth with every fiber of my being, but if it doesn't happen, what I really want more than that is a healthy baby and a healthy self.

I want to leave wherever I leave my home, the birthing center, the hospital with my self well and my baby well, and that is the end result. I think if you just sort of keep reminding yourself of that, it can be a lot less scary because you know that, you know, we talked about this during birthing class. I was terrified of a C-section.

It was planned. I got to choose the day she would be born. I knew what time she would be born. And that felt really comforting, but it's major surgery. I was really concerned that I wouldn't survive. I am a Black woman in America. The numbers are not in my favor. So on top of just regular fear, I had that to contend with.

And I think that's another reason why it's so important to surround yourself with providers, with doulas, with whomever to, to bring you peace and comfort through this process. Whether it's through a, you know, a birthing class or you hire a doula or you do both, or you have a midwife or a provider that you really love, you have to trust the people around you and they have to be putting goodness into you.

Lisa: Yes. Oh, I love the way you phrased that. That's beautiful. And can you speak to what was your decision-making journey like in choosing your care provider and in choosing-- you worked with a doula, correct?

Amber: I did. Yeah. My choice of care provider actually happened because I had a provider that I really loved. He moved away and his nurse actually recommended my doctor to me, my OB. And so I definitely would say if you know a nurse at all ask. The nurses know everything about the doctors.

If you're moving to a new place and you want to check out a hospital, you maybe want a provider. I would say, talk to a nurse at that hospital. They are the ones that can really tell you, oh, this is the doctor you want. And don't be afraid to interview people. I'll say that my hospital, New York Presbyterian, which I love-- during the first pregnancy, I wanted an early scan and that's not usual.

Normally you get like an eight or 10 week scan. I wanted a really early scan. So we went to like a boutique, really fancy place downtown in Manhattan. And it was a lovely, beautiful office. Very expensive, very fancy. And I hated the doctor. I didn't, we just didn't have a connection. And I went back to my doctor so fast.

You didn't, I didn't realize just how important it is to really connect with someone. This is such a critical time in your life. This is such a huge life change that you really want to make sure you connect with them. And if you, it wasn't like there's anything terribly wrong with this person, but we just didn't click.

We weren't on the same wavelength and it, you know, it's, that's important. My husband was like, oh, I think this person is fine. I didn't get a vibe. And I was like, I got a vibe. And if you get a vibe that like, listen to your intuition, listen to your gut. Just some, if something doesn't feel right, it doesn't have to mean the person's terrible or mean to you or anything like that. It could just be as simple as I'm not feeling it.

Lisa: Right. Absolutely. Everybody listened to Amber because that is really important wisdom. It really does matter. That's one of the most important choices you will make in your pregnancy for a great labor and birth, if not the most. Yeah, and when you say New York Presbyterian, I, I believe you gave birth specifically at the Columbia location, yes.

Amber: Correct. Uptown 168th, shout out to the Heights.

Lisa: Yeah.

Amber: Yeah, it was great. It was really wonderful. I will drop the name of my OB because I love her. Her name is Hemashi Perera. She's incredible. She's younger. She's my age. I'm 36 for reference and it was nice to have someone who is around my age.

That doesn't mean you have to have someone that's around your age. It just was nice for perspective to have a doctor that sort of seemed to be at the same life stage as I was. But in general, she's just the coolest, she's a very cool doctor and I was her first birth of the day, on the day that I gave birth.

 The moment she walked in, she checked in on me in triage. So she was like in her street clothes. And then before she left 24 hours later, she checked in on me before she left the hospital. So I saw her, right. I saw her at the beginning of her day and at the end of her day. And you want someone like that.

You want someone that'll check on you. I didn't ask her to, she didn't have to do that. She could have checked on me in a couple of days and given me a call, but she stopped by my room. Wanted to see the baby. You make sure I was doing well. And that's everything. Yeah.

Lisa: And I have not ever worked with Dr. Perera. Is she Black or did you choose your care provider at all based on sharing the race or -- I know you just shared age, which is interesting. I haven't had anybody shared that kind of preference before, but were there any other aspects of who she is that really drew you to her?

Amber: There weren't. I actually chose her sight unseen based on the referral from my other doctor's nurse, who was like a white man who moved to Michigan. And I was really sad. He went away if you're in Michigan, Michael Warren is a great OB. But based on her recommendation I'm not sure what ethnicity my doctor is actually.

And I am ethnically ambiguous. So I will not guess. I sort of hate it when people do that to me. But she is not white. I know that. So she is, she has an ethic background that I am unaware of. But it didn't draw her to me for that reason, but it is comforting. Right? I think it's comforting to give birth at a diverse place where there are people of all different ethnicities around. I think that was really important to me as well. And one reason that I wanted to give birth where I chose to give birth. Yeah.

Lisa: Great. Yeah. The reason I asked that is several parents I've interviewed, who shared their stories with me who identify as Black, have chosen intentionally to hire Black doula, Black care provider, Black surgeon just feeling safer with that choice. So that was why I just wanted to run that by you.

Amber: Yeah. I think there is an aspect of that that kept me safe. The fact that I knew I was dealing with a woman of color and I'm a woman of color and I sort of did feel that extra, I'm going to be taken care of, you know, I'm going to be taken care of.

 Okay. I'm good. But I would say the hospital experience, every single staff member I met at Columbia, New York Presbyterian was amazing. Everyone treated me and my husband and my baby with the utmost respect and care. And I know that as much as I think, I feel like hospital births do get a bit of a bad rap these days because of the expectations.

Right? Because there can be a lot happening at you if you don't have an advocate, which we can talk about the fact that I did have a [doula]. But also for me it was, it felt like what birth must have been like in, and still is, in like village cultures, where there are a lot of women around you taking care of you and attending to your every need and making sure that you're good.

That's what it felt like from the second I got there, it felt like there were just swarms of women that were there and some men that were there to take care of me, I did. They made sure that I was good, that I wasn't too cold in the room that I had the right socks. That every, every little thing. That my vitals were good, of course. I felt very, very supported and taking care of from the beginning to the end.

Lisa: Oh, I'm so glad to hear that. That's just really encouraging. Nice. Yeah. So you said we could talk about the choice of doula. Would you talk about that a little bit? How did you hear about doulas? How did you find your doula?

Amber: Yeah. So I, I had a friend that had a baby the year before me, and she had gotten a doula. And as you mentioned, it was very important to her to have a doula of color. That was something that was really important to her. So I was looking all around, but I feel very fortunate that I had found out a few months before becoming pregnant, that one of my close friends from years back, we've been friends for years and years and years, about a decade, had recently become a doula.

And her name is Erin Eichorn. Her business is called Mothers and Art. She is amazing. She was one of my good friends and I sort of knew right away that my friend's a doula, I'm going to pick her. And the reason I chose her is because even from when we worked together, we were like hosts at a restaurant. Like back in the day, when we first moved to New York, we were like New York City babies and we were both actors at the time, musical theater actors. And we grew up together a bit in the city. And I knew even from back then, she is the type of person who would advocate for me. She's the type of person that when it comes to someone else and making sure that someone else's okay, she's a mama bear.

She will stand up for you. She's not afraid to have those tough conversations. If you don't want to be the bad cop at the hospital, she'll be the bad cop for you, but still nice enough to be able to make sure that everyone still loves you. That you're not the problem patient or anything like that.

Lisa: I love it. And I just went over to her Instagram and I'm, I already loved the Mothers & Art. And now I see the Sondheim Sunday in the Park with George quote, Children & Art. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I love her already because I grew up as a musical theater kid. And yeah. Oh, that's so cool. I got to meet her.

Amber: Yes, you do. I will put you in touch for sure. She's wonderful. And I feel really fortunate and I would say one of the things that I was concerned with is, do I even need a doula if my baby's breech and I'm going to have a C-section? I feel like that's a common query. Is it even worth it?

Especially during COVID, no one else was allowed in the OR besides my husband. So it's like, is it even worth it? And I say a resounding yes, One million percent. I still recommend no matter what kind of birth you want, have a doula.

Lisa: You still need support.

Amber: You still need the support. And.

Lisa: But yeah.

Amber: Exactly. You need prenatal support. You need postpartum support.

You know, you might arrange with your doula. One thing I love about working with a doula is that the arrangement can be flexible and specific to your needs, right? If what you're feeling is I'm really stressed about all the baby stuff that's shown up at my house since my baby shower. And I don't know what things to open now, what things to put together later, what things need to go with a closet for three months, four months, you can call your doula and maybe they will come over and you guys can go through it together.

You could do a quick call. You talk through it. What do I do with this breast pump? How do I use it? We set up my breast pump during one of my prenatal visits. Anything you need, your doula has got you, which great

Lisa: Yes, absolutely. And I'll just mention one of the doulas in our collective is not only a birth doula and postpartum doula, and a singer by the way, but also a personal organizer. And so like, that's, I'm like, that's a great continuum of care to offer that in addition to these other things, but you're right. That like, even without being a professional organizer, often they're able to support you in these creative ways.

Amber: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you just have that extra person, because one of the things my husband said, he was a little bit on the fence about whether or not we needed a doula. And when I read to him the description of a doula, what a doula does, suddenly his mind was a bit changed because I think there's a misconception that a doula does what the spouse or partner is supposed to do.

Lisa: Replaces the partner. Yep.

Amber: Which you know, more than anything, that is the exact opposite of what's going to happen. They're there to protect your experience as a family.

Lisa: Absolutely.

Amber: I wanted my husband there engaged with me going through the experience with me, not managing doctors and nurses and professionals.

And, you know, I wanted him in the mix with me and the doula can help protect that experience for you, which is amazing.

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. To be kind of like a patient advocate and yeah, I love that idea of protecting the experience for the family. That's a great way to put it.

Amber: Yeah.

Lisa: and Yeah. I just want to speak a little bit more to what you were just saying about it is so common when I get inquiries for the doula collective and, you know people seeking a doula, it is so common for people to be like, well, what happens if we have a C-section? Like, we don't need them then.. And so it's this education piece of explaining there is actually absolutely a role to be played and plenty of prenatal support, plenty of like day-of support and, you know, depending on your needs and your preferences, you can talk to that doula about what are your contractual nuances if it does need to shift to a cesarean to a belly birth and it's going to be different terms from one doula to the next.

So what a very common scenario is is that a lot of doulas will shift some number of hours of support to some postpartum support. That's one, one of the more common scenarios that it might be. But like you were saying, I think you said, you know, it can be negotiated. You know, a lot of doulas will be flexible because they want to meet your needs. They want to customize things to exactly what your preferences might be.

Amber: Yeah, they want to make sure you have a great experience. And if that means extra hours on the backend, on the beginning. We decided even to, I knew that I would be much more stressed when my husband went back to work. He took some time off upfront, paternity leave while I was on maternity leave. But when he went back to work full time, I knew I would be going through it.

Right. And on my own, I don't have family close. I knew I was going to need some support. So we were like, let's do a visit right when my husband goes back to work, let's have like, save it. Let's save it for a little while out. And it was a great idea. It's like you said, people can be flexible. The, at the end of the day, your doula wants you to have a wonderful prenatal, birth and postpartum experience. So talk to them about what you would like. And it's okay if you don't know what you would like either. Cause I also was a little bit of that.

Lisa: Oh yeah. That's very, that's very common for people to be like, I don't know. Can you guide me a little bit?

Amber: Yes.

Lisa: We're here for that too.

Amber: What do people do is just my question. I don't know, what do people want?

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And how many--

Amber: She brought me food in the hospital. That was a good one.

Lisa: Oh, nice. Oh, that's great. And how many weeks were you? Do you remember when approximately when you hired her?

Amber: I was around 33, 34 weeks. Yeah. So I was rather later, I think a lot of people choose to have a doula a lot sooner. For whatever reason I just waited. I think it's, because I, I knew this, I know this person and we had communicated before then. And so we, I don't think we, we didn't make it official. It wasn't official until about 33 34 weeks.

Lisa: Yeah, I think I was looking back at your registration form for class. And at that point, I don't think you had hired her.

Amber: No. Yeah,

Lisa: I'm so glad you did. That's

Amber: yeah, yeah.

Lisa: Well, are there any other things you wanted to talk about in terms of preparation for this journey and pregnancy before we go into your birth story?

Amber: Sure. One of the things that I think is really important to note is that people will tell you you'll be tired after you have a baby, but there is no amount of preparation someone can give you that will fully prepare you or even be a drop in the bucket of preparing you for the type of sleep deprivation you will have in the first months, weeks.

And that's okay. That's okay. I think the whole journey of parenthood is sort of like that you can't really know. You don't know what you don't know. That's fine. I think you're going to hear a lot. You'll probably roll your eyes at the 89th time someone tells you you're going to be so tired and they're right. They're not wrong, but you can't prepare for it anyways.

Lisa: Yeah.

Amber: Don't even try. It's fine. It's fine. Yeah. But yeah. As far as anything else, I would say before we get into my birth story, I would say join a group. One thing, one positive from having a pandemic pregnancy is that everyone was sort of forced online in a different way.

Right? We've been using the internet forever. We just weren't using it to its fullest extent. We weren't using it to actually connect with one another in this way. And I think get online, find a birth class, find a support group, meet some people, meet some pregnant people and form relationships because, and honestly do it over zoom, do it over the internet because when you have a baby, you might not feel like leaving your house for a while.

Yes.

You might not feel like putting on pants or a shirt

Lisa: Yup.

Amber: or brushing your teeth. So, you know, cut yourself some slack and make some friends now that you can, you know, throw your hair in a mom bun and turn on your phone on zoom. So, yeah,

Lisa: I think a lot of people have realized both, you know, new parents, well, people of all kinds, but new parents, as well as like perinatal professionals have realized the benefit, what you're just exactly what you're talking about, about offering virtual support groups and the huge value in that when people don't feel like they can get out of the house in those early weeks, it's really valuable.

So yeah, there's a doula in our collective who's doing regular virtual parent groups and there are many other options in New York City and elsewhere as well, of course, but yeah. Another point of listened to Amber. That is really good information. You need that community. You need to be able to compare notes, wisdom from each other and, and just be supported and encouraged by each other and gripe together too, complain--

Amber: Oh yeah.

Lisa: Bitch and moan.

Amber: A hundred percent. Listen to Lisa. Yes. You need to bitch and moan with other people it's important and healthy for this journey. Definitely. And honestly, support in areas that I wasn't expecting. I mean, not just support groups that I found specifically, but Reddit. Reddit can be one of the most wonderful places when you're both trying to conceive and through pregnancy. There are a lot of really wonderful subreddits that are dedicated to these journeys. And you can ask all of your questions. You can just sort of like throw all of your questions into Reddit and the supportive group of people who are also going through it or who have gone through it will give you answers and support it.

Lisa: Yeah, that's a good one. I don't think anyone on this podcast has ever brought up Reddit, but I I'm sort of on there just barely, but I have caught glimpses of, especially in the trying to conceive journey, seeing a lot of subreddits and things on those topics.

Amber: Yeah, you can join a exactly. You can join a group too based on your due date. So you can join a group specifically for your month. And it's nice because it's people that are literally going through it at the exact same time as you, which is great. So you're all, you all have the same questions at the same time and you can sort of, you know crowdsource different things, which is great.

Lisa: Hmm.

Amber: Yeah.

Lisa: All right, well, so how did you pick your baby's due date and tell us about like that, scheduling it and setting it up and then just go into your birth story whenever you're ready.

Amber: Absolutely. I did it based on work, honestly. I was fortunate to be able to work remote during the whole pandemic. So my whole pregnancy, I was remote and shout out to pregnant people who go into work during their first, second, third trimesters during their pregnancies.

I don't know how you do it. You're amazing. You're all wonderful, amazing human beings. And I am in awe of you because I don't know how I would have been able to put pants on and leave my house during the first trimester. I couldn't, I'm not even kidding you. I couldn't brush my teeth for like, like a whole month.

I had to like brush my teeth with toothpaste and my finger. I know that sounds gross, but everything made me throw up. Everything. It was that bad. It was so terrible. Yeah, it was awful. But.

Lisa: Yay for not having to be on a train. Cause in my first trimester, when, you know, no one knows you're pregnant because you're not showing yet. And I felt so sick all the time, any tiny movement on the train, I would squat. Whenever I didn't have a seat, I would just squat down because, and lean over because I was like, I'm going to throw up!

Amber: Yeah. The amount of meetings I took laying down on my couch. I can't even tell you. I mean, I would tell people when my zoom camera's off it's because I'm throwing up. I just want you guys to know.

Lisa: You don't want to see this.

Amber: You don't want to see what's happening. If I'm not on camera, just trust that I shouldn't be on camera. Trust me on that, but yeah.

I would say yeah, actually getting to the scheduling and all of that stuff, like I said, it was mostly around my work schedule, deciding if I wanted a couple of days, when I wanted my maternity leave to start exactly. I chose to give birth early in the day. That was a tip I got from someone else who had a C-section they said try to be earlier in the day if possible.

And my doctor offered for me to be first. So I said, yeah, let's do that. And I don't know, I don't know why the recommendation was given to me, but it did feel good to know that I was like, my doctor had gotten a full night's sleep and I was the first thing she did that day. That made me feel nice.

I'm sure that she did an excellent job from the first to the last appointment she had. But yeah. And we chose. Yeah.

Lisa: Did they give you a range, like a certain week? Did it need to be before your due date? What was that like?

Amber: Oh, excellent question. Yes. They wanted it to be a week before my due date so that I didn't go into spontaneous labor and, funny story, I did go into spontaneous labor and didn't know it till I got to the hospital.

Lisa: Sometimes that happens.

Amber: Yeah, we were at 39 weeks, 39 weeks in one day. And we got to the hospital, they got me hooked up.

I got checked in, I'm in triage and I'm hooked up to all the monitors. You have to be hooked up to a million things, IVs and monitors. And I remember my husband was sort of sitting nearby and one of the nurses came over and said, oh, look, do you see these contractions? And we both sort of went, I'm sorry what? She said yeah. She's having a contraction right now. I didn't know that you could have contractions and not know that you were having contractions. I had no idea that that was even a thing. I know that you and which, I should have. Cause you kind of said it when you told me it was a thing you told me. I didn't, I don't think I believed you. I thought that I would feel it. I would know.

Lisa: Right. It depends on how the wording a little bit. Yeah. It's amazing how things land or don't land, you know? Cause I will say you could sleep through them in early labor, you know, which is the equivalent of, you're not noticing it, but we don't always translate it that way.

Amber: Yeah. Yeah. I think I just was expecting it to be some like very instantaneous, like, oh, this is painful right now. I know what's going on. These are contractions,

Lisa: Because that's movies and TV. right? It's suddenly really powerful.

Amber: You told her she for the record, everyone. She prepared me for this. She did say it multiple times, but I, I didn't believe I didn't. I just, I thought what I thought.

Sure enough. If you have to have a C-section and it's planned and they want to do it a week before, do it, go for it, listen to your doctor, because what you don't want is to go into spontaneous labor and be in, like, if you have a breech baby, have, you know, be inactive labor,

Lisa: Foot hanging out of your vagina

Amber: Literally, a foot hanging out of your vagina and have to be rushing to the hospital.

That's not ideal, not ideal.

Lisa: Oh. And did they tell you what nuanced breech position your baby was in?

Amber: Frank breech.

Lisa: Frank breech, okay.

Amber: Feet up. She did every once in a while, put her feet down and to like stretch your legs. I could feel her in my pelvis, just sort of dancing around, down there, super fun. She was Frank breech the whole time. When I say the whole time, I do mean like under my head, under my right rib, the whole time. The farthest they got her during the ECV procedure was head in my left rib. By the time we got to the car, she was already back to the right rib. She was like, I don't know what you're doing, but I'm not --

Lisa: Not what I want.

Amber: I'm not having any of this. And I thought for sure that there would be some good reason why she was breech. Like maybe the cord was too short or maybe, you know, I have scoliosis.

I thought maybe that might have something to do with it. There's not enough room for her to turn around. No, my doctor informed me afterward that there was no good reason for her to be breeched. She just decided she wanted to be there.

Lisa: Little sassy girl.

Amber: She just, yeah. She's and you know, her parents are stubborn, so I get it. That tracks, she's definitely mine for sure.

Lisa: Hmm.

Amber: But yeah, we got to the hospital very early in the morning, bring donuts to the hospital, pro-tip. We brought our nurses donuts. The nurses are who are going to take care of you. They're going to take care of you, whether or not you bribe them with donuts just for the record.

But they were so excited. They were the most excited that I think that they were, these people work 24 hour shifts, bring them donuts. They're going to wait on you hand and foot.

Lisa: Definitely.

Amber: Yeah. So we went in very early in the morning. You know, with the bag, the whole deal, I would say if, again, if you know a nurse, if you have anyone in your life, who's a nurse or like a, a labor and delivery nurse check with them about what you should bring.

Cause I think it does vary what your hospital will have or what your birthing center will have, will vary from place to place. So I would say check with them what they already have there. Just cause there was a lot that we left at home based on what they told us.

So we got to the hospital quite early. First things first, we got settled in to triage, which is where you put the gown on. They hook you up to all the things like I mentioned earlier. And then for anyone having a C-section, or even if you're having a vaginal delivery, you're going to speak to a lot of people.

If you get induced, for example, if like for some reason your doctors want to induce you, or just when you check into the hospital, there are a lot of humans that have to come and talk to you for various reasons. And that's something that I wasn't quite prepared for. People on the medical team, right. You kind of think of it as your own doctor or your own midwife, just that person.

But there are a lot of other people involved and whether you want to have medication or you don't, if you do, then the anesthesiologist team has to come and talk to you and give you sort of the rundown and learn about different things. I would say that's another place where your doula can be really helpful. If you have anxiety at all, or if a lot of strangers walking up to you when you're in a vulnerable state and the only thing separating you in them is a thin gown, you might want your doula to interface with them and sort of keep you in your sacred bubble with your partner. That might be something that you want. I'm the type that I just wanted to be in the mix. So I was very much front and center in that process. That's fine too. And I was there for about an hour and a half before they even got me the epidural, before they even got me prepped for surgery. So if you're having a C-section know that you're going to be at the hospital for a super long time before anything happens, there is still a lot of downtime. I think I was kind of expecting because it was, everything was super planned, I don't know why I thought it would move a lot quicker, but no.

Lisa: And an hour and a half is actually on the short end. That's true for a cesarean as well as an induction, often people are there for hours waiting and they're like, just what you said. Like it was scheduled, like what's happening? Why am I waiting?

Amber: I believe I took a ticket and I'm next. Yeah, but you have to remember, there are other things happening in the hospital, right. And one of the things that I'll pause here to say is, remember, and I know this will sound a little bit weird, but I think of this as a very good thing.

If you are at all concerned about giving birth in a hospital, maybe you're afraid to give birth in a hospital. You want to give birth at home and you don't want to be transferred to the hospital. And you maybe have some fear around that. I know that I did. I would say, remember that these are baby factories and I mean that in a good way. Their whole job, what they do all day is making sure mom and baby come out alive.

Making sure everyone's good. That's their whole thing, their whole job now, granted, because there may be factories, you might not get the soft touch in every instance. You might get a lot of people just spitting random facts at you being, you know, coming around, arbitrarily doing things to you. It feels just like you're being poked and prodded and people aren't asking permission.

It can feel like a lot, but remember that this is their job, their job is for you to survive and for your baby to survive. And even if you decide not to have a doula or something happens, like, I don't know a pandemic and your doula can't be there the whole time. Remember that what they're doing is to protect you.

And if you don't know what's going on, ask. If you're not sure what's happening, ask, don't be afraid to advocate for yourself and say, I didn't quite understand that last thing you said, or, or even, I didn't understand what that doctor said to me. This is where the nurses come in handy. Right?

Lisa: Yeah.

Amber: The nurses are your cohorts. I had a nurse, I remember, stand up for me. I heard her from, I was in, you know, in triage, you're just in curtains. You're not in a room or anything. I remember hearing her stand up for me during my ECV procedure. And she sort of pushed back at this doctor and was like, I remember she said that she wanted an epidural and she was very firm on that.

And I remember hearing him say, no, no, I just spoke to her. She's okay with trying without the epidural. And the nurse goes, well, let me just go in and make sure. Which is great. I didn't ask this woman to do that. She just sensed my fear and trepidation and wanted to make sure that I was okay and came in and made sure she asked me, Hey, are you okay?

This doctor's saying this and I just wanted to double check. So

Lisa: I love that. Particularly given that you are a black woman, because we know the history of this misconception of pain tolerance and, you know, like that, it's totally not a thing. And so that there, in some cases there have been historically and even in present day, sometimes a tendency to be like, you're tough, you don't need anything. So I can't help but just wonder if the nurse, if that was in the back of her head in double-checking and I loved that. I mean whatever the case, just making sure that your preferences were being honored in general is a really great thing. So that's great.

Amber: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

So the first part, we talked a little bit about how long it takes. The first part is triage. That's where you'll stay before you get into the OR. Once that part was over and they start to wheel you in to the OR, I don't know if it's normal under normal circumstances, or if this is a pandemic thing, but my husband was not allowed to be with me during the epidural. Just them doing the actual procedure.

Lisa: It's common, even in non COVID times for them to kick out your personal labor support. Sometimes can be negotiated, sometimes not really. Depends on the anesthesiologist.

Amber: Yeah. I would say prepare for that. And I'm a person, I tend to pass out. I have something called vasovagal syncope, which is a fancy term for passes out. So it was important for me to vocalize that and voice that to every person I spoke to at the hospital. I let them all know, especially the, yeah, it's important.

And I think when people hear, oh, I'm going to pass out when you gave me the epidural. I think at least in my case, you can kind of tell by the look on people's faces, that they were sort of like, okay, a lot of people must say that,

Lisa: But surely when, because you know the clinical term of it, I would like to think that they would take that more seriously. No, I really have vasovagal syncope for real.

Amber: Exactly. And I think they did take me seriously, but I don't think they realized just how familiar I am with the signs and how much I was able to predict what was about to happen to me. So they wheel me into the OR and I mean, getting an epidural just is a weird experience.

There are a lot of people around you, people holding onto you, you have to kind of bend in a weird way that you're not able to, because you have a giant pregnant belly.

Lisa: It's hard to curl into a C when you have the belly in the way.

Amber: They're like, can you curl more? I'm like, no, there's a human being on my lap. No, I can't curl any more than I have already curled. But they did it, they did the epidural. Then they lay you down because you will very shortly not be able to feel your bottom half. And at that point, I said, it's happening.

It's happening now. I'm going to pass out now. And then all, I didn't fully, fully lose consciousness, but I remember hearing, I couldn't sort of see anymore, like my eyes were closed. And I remember hearing all of the machines start to go berserk. There was a lot of beeping, there were a lot of noises. There were a lot of people saying a lot of things very quickly. What are we going to do?

Lisa: Your blood pressure was probably tanking.

Amber: My blood pressure dropped super fast, super far. And they were like, are we going to call a code? There was a lot. It was , it definitely got a little bit intense. Now, granted, I wasn't afraid because I knew what was happening to me. This has happened my whole life.

In high stress situations I pass out. So I knew that I would be fine. I'm laying down. There are doctors everywhere I'm going to be okay. But it was a little bit alarming to have all the people around you. So just know that people will snap into gear very quickly. If they sense even a tiny bit of danger that you're in.

I knew that I would be okay. But they didn't know if I would be okay. And they wanted to make sure that I was okay.

Lisa: And you said Emile was not with you at this point, right?

Amber: Correct.

Lisa: And maybe that was for the best? Cause that might've been scary. I don't know. What do you

Amber: think?

I think, yeah, I think absolutely he should not have been there and that's the reason they said he shouldn't be, I told them, like, I might not pass out if he's there. I might be able to stay more lucid and conscious.

But they were afraid that he would pass out or have a panic attack

Lisa: Yeah, that's a common argument.

Amber: from seeing his wife, which I think in hindsight, they were right. Just being completely honest. I would've loved to have him there, but I'll tell you, after I fully came back, my blood pressure normalized, it all happened probably within about 20 seconds.

It was over almost as soon as it started. But then I became extremely nauseous, which I also knew would happen. And I also had told them ahead of time. So as soon as I came to again, I very calmly said, I'm going to throw up now. And they sort of,

Lisa: Thanks for the warning.

Amber: Right? I was just like, I just want you to know I'm going to throw up now. And they, I turned my head to the side, someone quickly removed my mask and they held a little container at my mouth and I threw up for a little while, it felt like forever to me, but I'm sure it was only about 25, 30 seconds.

But then I was fine, then I was fine. And I say all of that, I go into the detail of those two things happening, the passing out and getting nauseous and actually throwing up because I want people to know that any number of reactions can happen when you have an epidural, any number of medications that your medical team gives you, you can have a reaction to.

And it could be really scary in the moment if you, especially, if you don't know that that's a pretty common thing. It's very common to get nauseous when you have an epidural, actually, and I was fortunate enough to know that ahead of time. So I was, and I know myself and I know my body, so I know that if I feel trapped at all, I will get, start to get a little anxious and probably pass out.

Lisa: Do you remember if they gave you an antacid before they administered the epidural?

Amber: They did not, but what a brilliant idea that would have been.

Lisa: That's often a standard thing, but not always to try to that.

Amber: Yeah, I had been, I had been taking antacids, I did list that in my list of medications I was on. So that might've been why they didn't, that would have been smart. I don't know if it would've made a difference, but I would have done it just in case regardless.

But because it's surgery, I hadn't eaten in a long time. So it wasn't like I had to the tasting your food, come back. Anyone who's been through this, the first trimester, knows that that's the worst part. Right? That's the worst part, not just the being nauseous. It's just the like knowing what your food tastes like in reverse.

Lisa: Yeah.

Amber: Not good. Not good. Yeah. But after that it was all smooth sailing. It could not have gone smoother. And even that process, having the expectation that that could happen is what kept me from being panicked or scared at all during it. At that point they let my husband in, he was right by my side. We had my birthing playlist. We had my sort of prep playlist, the fun music I wanted to hear before the birth was actually happening.

And then we informed the team that I wanted to have a specific song playing. So if you have a specific song that you want playing, when your baby is born, let the doctors and nurses know and the anesthesiologist. Let everyone know. So they can all alert you like, Hey, it's about to happen. Put that song on.

Lisa: Aw.

Amber: Yeah. My song was by a band called Broods. It's a kind of obscure, I think they're from the Netherlands. I'm not sure exactly where they're from. Kind of obscure band, but it's called "Full-blown Love" by Broods.

Lisa: I will look that up and I'll include a link to it if I can in the show notes.

Amber: Yeah.

Lisa: Thanks for sharing that.

Amber: Of course, of course.

Lisa: And as you're sharing that, that's one of several requests you can make in having a belly birth. Were there any other sort of cesarean birth plan requests that you made?

Amber: I did want delayed cord clamping, which I only learned about because of you. Thank you. And I asked about it at one of my prenatal appointments and my doctor informed me that they do it at the hospital for all births, which is great. So I didn't have to like include that in my birth preference sheet or anything like that.

wanted a clear sheet, but they just didn't do that at the hospital I gave birth at. And some do some don't. What's nice though, is that they drop the sheet like immediately. I heard my baby cry and they dropped the sheet and you're allowed to take pictures, but not video in the OR, but I'm going to drop a pro tip and I hope that no one gets in trouble for the fact that this happened. Live photos. Make sure your camera, if you have an iPhone, make sure your camera is on live photos, because if you take, if you take photos very quickly and quick succession, like my husband was instructed very sternly to do.

I wanted everything every picture of every second of the whole process. If you take them in quick succession, you can string them together and make a video. Your phone will sort of do that automatically. So I have a video of my baby's birth, which is amazing and I will cherish it forever. Yeah.

Lisa: That is the coolest, I love that.

Amber: Yes. Live photos on and make sure that partner or birth support person is on that button mashing the, the camera button.

Lisa: That's great. Now, when you say dropping the curtain, I just interviewed another of my students a few days ago about their cesarean belly birth because of breech as well. And she was saying, we were like, no, thank you. We don't want that because she was afraid she would see her own body open, you know?

And so I would think that when they drop it, they're dropping it just enough for you to see baby coming out, but not seeing yourself. Is that correct?

Amber: Absolutely correct.

Lisa: Good.

Amber: Yes. That's all. Yeah. And yeah, I get that. I totally feel the same way. Like I don't want to see the inside of me. I don't need that in my brain forever. I don't need, I don't need that. I'm good, good. Just see the baby and nothing else. And they dropped it just enough to like, hold the baby up and you could see the baby and then, you know, my husband couldn't see anything else and you're laying down on a table, too.

So your vantage point -- you wouldn't be able to see yourself, even if you tried, I don't think. Even if it was clear, I don't know that you'd actually be able to see, to strain your neck enough to see anything.

Lisa: That makes sense. So they did delayed cord clamping. Did Emile go over when the baby went over for suctioning?

Amber: Yes. Yes. So I wanted him to stay with the baby. My doula asked me, do you want your husband to stay with you or the baby? And I said, the baby, I don't want that baby to be out of one of our sites the entire time. That was really, really important to me.

So he followed her and cut the cord which was a wonderful experience the whole time when she got her little footprints done and the suction and everything, got weighed, he got to see the whole thing. There's like a weird moment that happens, I think, when, especially if you have a C-section where the baby immediately is sort of whisked away to do things, right.

Even if they put the baby on your chest for a second, they're whisked away. We didn't, in my case, I had initially wanted immediate skin to skin, but sort of forgot in the moment to be quite honest with you. I just fully forgot. All of my plans just left me. And I was mesmerized by the fact that I now have a human on the outside of my body.

It was very surreal. So there's a lot going on. And I remember my husband asked them, can I touch her? At one point. And they're like, yeah, she's your baby. You can, you can touch her. So there is a weird sort of, because it's so clinical in some ways, right? You're in an OR, it feels very surgical. It's feels very sterile.

You don't want to do the wrong thing there are a lot of cords and machines around. I think he didn't want to mess any of their plans up. And so know that you are allowed to touch the baby. It's your baby, your partner can touch the baby right away. But yeah, I would say if you did want obviously skin to skin immediately, talk to your provider about that ahead of time.

And if you forget, no big deal NBD, I totally forgot. And I was really concerned, and this is an important point I wanted to make sure to mention, I was really concerned with the C-section about breastfeeding and how that would go. And if we would be successful, because I knew they would need to finish my surgery before I would be able to really do that.

And it was totally fine. It wasn't as much time as you would think the surgery was. By the time I sort of got over the fact that I just had a baby and was back in reality, they were done. And they had handed me my baby and I was in a wheelchair and we were on our way back to post-op. So, yeah.

Yeah. And my baby breastfed for 45 minutes for the very first time in post-op. I would say on that note, there are a couple of breastfeeding resources that I think are really, really important. One video that you showed during birthing class, I think is amazing. And then there's another that I think I sent to you during that time about attachment that I wish people, I wish I had known how breastfeeding was meant to work before I gave birth, because, and I'm glad I did know.

I wish I had known what breastfeeding really was my whole life versus what you see on TV, even what you hear from other moms sometimes, because it can vary from person to person and. If you have a supply come in right away. If you don't have a supply come in right away, if you there's such a wide array of normal of what can happen.

And so much of it, you have no control over. So I feel like a) make sure you watch some videos on YouTube about attachment and that you can, you know, what a good latch looks like. You know, what a good latch feels like. It's not intuitive. I would say at all,

Lisa: Right.

Amber: it's totally bizarre and foreign and looks really aggressive. How to get a baby to latch properly is, it feels extremely aggressive, but definitely works and you should do it. But you know, whether or not you have colostrum come in right away or milk come in right away is totally not up to you. So don't be mad at yourself or feel guilty. Like you did anything wrong.

If it's doesn't happen. If your baby has a tongue tie or just sort of lays there and doesn't do it as if it's, you don't have enough milk or you feel like you have too much. There's so much shame associated with breastfeeding that really just shouldn't be there. That I just, yeah. I feel like if more people talked about the fact that it is not a straight line, people would be a lot better off.

Lisa: So true.

Amber: Yeah.

Lisa: And just, if we would also just provide more support and more education and resources for our lives, like we just don't learn about it. Most of us don't observe it. And so it's this big unknown, and you're totally right. That everyone's trajectory for nursing as well as for birth, all of these things for parenting, it's all so different, such a huge range of normal.

Amber: Yeah, totally. Totally.

Lisa: Can you talk a little bit about when they were doing the surgery, did you feel tugging and pulling or what was that like? And did the epidural totally work? It sounds like it, it worked beautifully, but I just wanted to ask a little bit about that.

Amber: They did. I was so worried that I would feel something and that it would skeeve me out and that I would pass out again. I thought I would miss it. I thought I would miss the birth of my daughter because I thought I would be unconscious during, which is another reason I made sure that I was like, I wanted my husband to go be with the baby, no matter what. Cause I was convinced I would pass out at that point. But they do a test. I didn't know this. So when they give you the epidural, they do a test to make sure that you can't feel anything. And I remember being like, when is the test happening? And they're like, we did it five minutes ago. I was like, okay. I guess we're good.

Lisa: Because you're numb.

Amber: Okie dokie.

Lisa: Did

Amber: Yeah

Lisa: they tell you what they did?

Amber: No, I think you scratch your foot or

Lisa: That's what I was envisioning. Yeah.

Amber: yeah, I didn't ask, but I'm curious to know. I'll ask my doctor at my next appointment and find out what they did to me. But yeah, I think they just like scratch your foot or something like that to make sure you can't feel anything. And I didn't feel-- people say tugging and pulling, and it's not wrong. That is accurate. But I think what's more accurate is I felt as though someone was trying to put pants on my body. It felt like my body, which couldn't move, someone was trying to dress me in a weird way. Like the type of tugging and pulling was like, are they putting jeans on me?

Like, that was the sensation I got. I was picturing behind the curtain was like zipping up jeans, like tugging them above my hips. And that's I think because your body physically will move a little as they do whatever they're doing to get the baby out. You'll kind of wobble a little on the table and it did feel like someone was like trying to shimmy up a pair of pants.

Lisa: Well, that is definitely a new one. I have not heard that description and I love it. That's great. It's nice to get new vocabulary and different ways to think about it.

Amber: There you go.

Lisa: Did you know you were having a little girl?

Amber: I did. I did the NIPT, the genetic testing right in the beginning. So first trimester I knew and I wanted to know I was very much-- my husband and I took a, like, we took a bet on it and I wanted to be right. I'm going to be totally honest with you and say I'm petty. And I wanted to be right. And I was right.

And my husband still tells the story that the first words out of my mouth, when I got off the phone were I was right and you were wrong, it's a girl.

Yeah. I married a very patient man.

Lisa: Yay for patient spouses, partners. That's great. So after she was born, do you remember, did they tell you, like now we're taking the placenta out or did they talk you through any of that or did they just do it.

Amber: They did. I don't remember a thing. I vaguely recall them saying things to me. My doctor was very much, and we had talked about this ahead of time, which is why I think it's really important to have this conversation with your provider. She said, I can walk you through it or I can not, and just do it, whatever you would prefer.

Do you want to know what I'm doing when I'm doing it? And I said, yes, I want to know everything. And she told me I was not mentally there. I was in awe of the fact that there was like a baby floating by my head. I was, it was very weird. My husband's like holding the baby next to my face. And it was all very strange.

And my doctor's like, I'm doing this now. And yeah, I can. And when I watch the video, I can hear them saying things and people talking to me and I don't remember it at all.

Lisa: So after the suctioning and the footprint and the cutting of the cord, all of that, is that when Emile brought your daughter, like, did you do cheek to cheek at that point, or did she come to your chest or what?

Amber: We did cheek to cheek. I kissed her on the mouth. She was making a sort of like puckery face and I instinctively just gave her a little kiss and she started crying. She wanted to go back in. The world was too bright for her. She wanted to go back in. So yeah. And then it was, again, all a blur until like, til I had a baby in my arms and the next thing I remember I was being wheeled into post-op.

Lisa: And I think you said that your doula was not allowed to be in the OR, is that right?

Amber: Correct.

Lisa: What about recovery?

Amber: Yes. So by the time I had the baby, she actually did meet us at the hospital when I got checked in in the morning. I skipped over a very important piece, which is my doula did meet us at the hospital. And I actually went up right away and I didn't meet with her, but she sat with my husband down in the waiting room.

Cause when you have a planned C-section, you go up first as the patient and your partner waits till they give permission, usually once you're like all checked in upstairs. And I remember thinking back, like what a nice experience for him to have someone to sit with when he's been sort of told, no, you have to wait, you get to go up after.

And suddenly, you know, his wife and child have just been whisked away. So I actually didn't see her. Then she left for a while and then came back post-op and asked if we want food or anything like that. And we were not really up for a visit. So she kind of like dropped stuff off and just like peaced out. And we saw her the next day.

Lisa: Now, what about pain management afterwards? What were, did they give you options for pain management?

Amber: Yeah. So they put me on like a lot of Tylenol and ibuprofen, basically around the clock. Every, I think, six hours. I was on a lot of like I think, I can't remember the milligrams, but basically a lot of ibuprofen and a lot of Tylenol. And then I had an option to take oxycodone. And I remember my doctor and all the nurses specifically saying don't be a hero.

It's a tiny, tiny dose. If you need it, I would rather you be, my doctor said, I'd rather you be up and moving around. If you're not able to be up and moving around and we check you and everything's fine, but you're still not able to be mobile. Take the oxycodone. It won't hurt your baby with breastfeeding.

It's not going to hurt you. Just take it so that you can keep moving because not being mobile is much worse for your recovery than just sitting there trying to bear it and just be in pain seated is much worse. So listen to your provider and take your medicine. I cannot stress that enough. Take your meds, take your meds.

At the hospital, it's great cause they come and they just kind of give them to you. You don't have to keep track, but when you leave, set reminders on your phone, do not let it get to the point where you get into pain. Just take it on the same schedule you were taking it at the hospital. And if you have to, for any reason, if it's not working for you and you need the extra pain meds, take them. So that you can take care of yourself and your baby.

Lisa: Absolutely. I've heard that time and time again. Some people do feel like I need to not do this. So they don't get the prescription filled before they go home and then they really regret it. You want to stay on top of that pain. So I think that's really important advice.

Amber: Yeah. And one other piece of advice for C-sections specifically. Cause it's the only thing I know, which is it's going to hurt to laugh. It's going to hurt to speak. It's going to hurt to go to the bathroom for the first time, which I think is true regardless of how you give birth.

Laugh a lot. Throw on something really funny and laugh it's going to hurt, but I healed so quickly and I feel as though my core healed very quickly because I worked out, I worked those muscles out and I was sort of always laughing. My husband is a very funny person and we watch a lot of comedy TV I think for not only for my physical health, but for my mental health in those early days, when getting up out of the bed is really hard.

Going to the bathroom is hard. Everything is hard. And on top of it, you have this whole new person that you are tasked with taking care of. You have to keep another human alive. So be kind to yourself, let yourself laugh. Do some laughter. I promise you, it'll help.

Lisa: Yes. Oh, love laughter so much. And that's so important, but you said it hurt; did you support the incision with your hand or with a pillow? Some people, those are some tips I've heard.

Amber: Oh, yes. I think it's instinctual. You will do it instinctively. You're going to sort of press up against it and do that. You'll need to, you'll need to, anytime you do anything, you're kind of going to probably have one hand on your incision because it's just a weird sensation, a weird thing. I will say, afterward scar management.

Lisa: I was just about to ask about that.

Amber: There you go. They're going to give you a whole packet, especially at the hospital.

They'll give you a whole packet about scar management. I will summarize the packet with what I found helpful, which is scar tape. So that silicone scar tape you can get. I think there are various brands that do it. I just got some off-brand off Amazon scar tape, and then scar massage. Scar massage is super important.

Just keep massaging that scar. I was terrified to touch my scar for like a couple weeks, but do it, do it anyway. As soon as the sort of little initial-- usually you'll get like, Steri-Strips something that's going to dissolve eventually, or just sort of fall off. That's what I got. Ask your doctor ahead of time.

That's important. Before you're in the situation, ask everything, ask every question. Everything you think is like a dumb question that might not make any sense. Ask, ask, ask, because in the moment you're going to be so overwhelmed with emotion and it's going to be surreal. You're going to be kind of out of your body. So before they take the baby out, ask all of your questions, everything you've ever thought of, ask. Yeah.

Lisa: Great. And in the show notes, I will include a video on scar massage and I will include a tip sheet that a pelvic floor occupational therapist friend of mine created that a lot of people have found helpful.

Amber: Oh, awesome.

Lisa: All right. Well, what else would you like to share? Is there anything else about the recovery, the healing process or anything that's transpired in the time that you've been a parent that you wanted to share with listeners?

Amber: I would say I'm going to go back to find some support groups. Find whether it's, if you have like next door, that's a great app. It's a great way to find people in your neighborhood that are also going through what you're going through. And get out of your house. You're not going to want to. I mean, if you're me, I'm like a homebody by nature. But there were a lot of times I didn't want to leave my house, but because I had made sort of a mom date with someone in the neighborhood, whether it was just to walk up the street and get coffee or whatever it is, leave your house, leave your house. Like at least once a week, take a walk around the block.

It's going to be hard and it's going to be scary and you're not gonna want to do it. And if you can't brush your hair, don't worry about it. That's why they call it a mom bun. Mom buns are amazing. And I have one every single day of my life; lean into it.

Lisa: That's great.

Amber: Yeah. Leave your house. I think you need to, you need fresh air.

Yeah, definitely, definitely that. And I think don't be afraid to be real with your support system. Really, really, really real. I think for me pregnancy and especially childbirth was a great opportunity for me to break through and be honest with even my closest friends in a way that I had not let myself be before, to be vulnerable in a way I had not let myself be before.

And I think it's a good opportunity to do that. And if you're texting with someone, if they ask you how you're doing, tell the truth, tell the truth. That's the best advice I can give you. Tell the truth. If you're not having a good day, tell them you're not having a good day and tell them why, be specific about what's going on with your mental health.

If breastfeeding is not going well, if formula feeding is not going well, if you're so sleep deprived, you're hallucinating, like tell someone what's going on.

Lisa: Well, so the final thing I would like to ask you is if you were to write a letter to your pre-parent self, what would you say?

Amber: That's a big question.

Lisa: Yes, it is. Just pick one or two.

Amber: Yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest thing I would say is find a group, find a group. I was really fortunate. I never thought I would say this in a million years, I was fortunate to have to go through pregnancy during a very specific time in the world when connection felt so important and we were all striving for it.

So it was very readily available. And we were talking a lot about mental health and a lot about connecting with people in different ways. And I think my fear is that that'll go away a little bit now that we're coming out of the pandemic. But I would say, and I will say this to my future self, assuming I want to go through this process again, which is find a group, find a village, find support, look for it, and really be vulnerable with it.

baby and dad holding hands

Yeah, I think that's the most important thing. I think again, so much trauma as it relates to birth is related to feeling a sense of not being in control, feeling that things are happening at you and to you, and that you don't have any one to talk to and that you don't know what to expect. And the more people you talk to before you go through this process, as you're going through this process, the more tips and tricks and hacks and advice you're going to get.

And by the time the last person in our birthing class gave birth just a couple of weeks ago, she knew all the tools of the trade. She knew every possible thing that could happen to her during this process. And, you know, we were texting while she was in labor. We were all texting as a group sort of going like, like this is happening.

Is this normal? This person's like, yeah, that's totally normal. Don't stress and have that too. Okay. This is what's going on over here. Yep. Don't worry about that. This is also normal, really like find a village, find other pregnant people that are going through this with you because you'll need them and you'll feel so relieved to know that you're not crazy when you have X, Y, or Z happen. Yeah.

Lisa: Thank you, Amber.

Amber: Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa: It's so nice to reconnect with you and to hear a lot more details than I had heard before. I really appreciate you sharing and taking the time. And I think it's really going to be valuable for people who are on similar journeys.

Amber: Thank you.