Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 51 - Unexpected Early Induction for Lack of Fetal Movement

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dad mike and newborn.JPG

When Erin shows up for her weekly prenatal appointment around 37 weeks without her partner due to Covid restrictions, she is caught by surprise when she’s told an immediate induction is necessary because they don’t detect enough fetal movement. They’re not even packed at this point, so Mike goes home to grab a few things. Birth intentions out the window, Erin finds new perspective and resolve to give birth with confidence when a couple of things happen to help her re-center and adjust. This is a birth story of a smooth induction with a necessary epidural in which baby needs to go to the NICU for a bit due to low birth weight. Mike joins and shares a partner’s perspectives on support, bonding, and being surprised by the way he felt when their son was born.

Episode Topics:

  • Prenatal time - silver lining of stay at home orders being nice in 3rd trimester

  • Goes in at 36 weeks for prenatal (Mike couldn’t be there) -- baby’s heartbeat is low

  • Admitted into hospital

  • Importance of self-advocacy (partner helping advocate) as well as flexibility when things don’t go as planned

  • Emotionally struggling with this unexpected turn of events

  • Erin was helped, while without Mike, by 1) the Covid test - being reminded of how tough she is; 2) they encouraged her to walk around before getting the epidural, finding her notebook from class and finding solace in that, feeling more in control and telling herself to get her head in the game

  • Started induction with epidural, foley balloon and pitocin.

  • Baby heart rate drops several times to where cesarean started being brought up, one time around 7-8 cm

  • She starts feeling contractions a bit in active labor

  • Pushing stage is brief, about 15 min; she responds well to coaching

  • Baby’s heart rate continues dropping during pushing but keeps giving a bit more time

  • Doc announces it’s a boy

  • Got 20 minutes with him before he had to go to NICU, Mike goes with him

  • Talking about bonding with baby

  • Early feeding

  • A few tips for expectant parents

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Interview Transcript

Lisa: Hi, Erin and Mike, welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Glad to have you here today.

[00:00:06] Erin: Thank you.

[00:00:06] Mike: Glad to be here.

[00:00:08] Lisa: First, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourselves. Let us know where you are in your parenting journey. In other words, how long ago you gave birth, which wasn't too long ago. As well as maybe where you live, what you do for a living, if you'd like--those kinds of things.

[00:00:21] Erin: Sure. I'm Erin Bolan and Mike. We live in Astoria and we have been parents to our son, Nate for 10 weeks now? It's 10 weeks. Yeah.

[00:00:32] Lisa: We're recording this in September, still in the pandemic, just for perspective. So you gave birth closer to everything locked down in March, and then you gave birth three months later.

[00:00:44] Erin: Yeah.

[00:00:45] Lisa: Things were getting a little better, but I'm interested to hear if there were specific ways that birth maybe looked different than it would have otherwise. So can you first talk a little bit about your pregnancy and maybe the pandemic will play into that as well. What was going on in your pregnancy? Were there any events to note, what were ways that you prepared for giving birth and for this transformation into parenthood?

[00:01:06] Erin: Sure. So I always have said to everybody throughout my pregnancy, it's, it's just like the most boring pregnancy in the world.

[00:01:12] Lisa: That's not a bad thing.

[00:01:14] Erin: That's a good thing. It was just, there's really nothing notable about it, except that I felt totally fine the whole time. I never had any symptoms. I would always say too, if my belly wasn't getting bigger, like, I wouldn't even know I was pregnant. But it was all like, thankfully very smooth for me.

[00:01:31]And in a way I almost feel like maybe being lockdown for that last half of it might've even been the little silver lining to that, too, that I just kind of got to stay at home. I'm a journalist. I work in Midtown, but it was nice, you know, starting beginning of March, like everybody else, I was just at home and that was nice to just be here and be relaxed and sort of settle into healthy routines as well. I was doing a lot of yoga in the beginning, that kind of lessened off in the end, but, a lot of yoga in the beginning and just eating really healthy. And I don't think I probably would have been able to do those things or push myself to do those things if I had been like commuting into work and in an office all day long.

[00:02:11]So that was sort of a nice, a nice silver lining to everything that's going on. Yeah.

[00:02:16] Lisa: You said that you, you did yoga, but it tapered off toward the end. Did you do any online yoga after the lockdown?

[00:02:23] Erin: I just mean I was doing yoga at home from the beginning. Yeah. But, but just sort of got lazy about it towards the end.

[00:02:31] Lisa: I'm sorry, Mike, what were you going to say?

[00:02:33] Mike: No, I think it is interesting because this is our first pregnancy, so we haven't really got anything to, well, directly compare it to obviously. But, like Erin, I work in the city, but since lockdown had been working from home as well. And so in some ways that has been that it was great for the pregnancy itself because you're really close and you're on hand and, you know, you can, can react to things.

[00:02:53]But just something that you said kind of resonated with me because towards the end of the pregnancy, it became more difficult for me to go to the regular checkups and the regular visits, because there was only allowed one person in the actual doctor's appointments. So in some ways that made it harder because you felt kind of one stage removed from the actual, you know, doctor's appointments themselves.

[00:03:11] And, and that's something that we'll talk about a bit later on as well.

[00:03:15] Erin: And in terms of other things we did just for preparing, well we took your class. And, we did that in April, I think. So, I remember we were sort of the least pregnant of everybody in the class at that time.

[00:03:26] So I think we were like a little bit further out, than most people, and we'll talk more about that too, but that was a very helpful experience for us as well.

[00:03:34] Lisa: That was when I was still getting used to the virtual teaching.

[00:03:37] Erin: I think it was one of your first.

[00:03:40] Lisa: Yeah. I started mid-March; it's been a wild ride.

[00:03:42]So, is there anything else you want to share about pregnancy before you go into your birth story?

[00:03:47] Erin: No.

[00:03:48] Lisa: Okay, great. So yeah, you can start wherever in your pregnancy. You want to start in terms of the birth story.

[00:03:53] Erin: So, we were due July 21st and I had my virtual baby shower on June 27th, a Saturday. And then, little did we know that we would have the baby just a couple of days after that virtual baby shower, three weeks early. So what happened was I went into my doctor for my normal checkup. and so we were just 30-- what does that make--36 weeks. And I went to the appointment and like Mike mentioned, because of the pandemic and the restrictions, he was able to come with me.

[00:04:27] So we sort of gotten into a habit of him driving me into the city. We live in Queens; our doctor was in Midtown. So we would drive into the city and Mike would just sort of circle around the block for a while, and I'd go into my appointment. And they were keeping the appointments like pretty quick, especially for like simple pregnancies like mine.

[00:04:43] So we go in, I'm like expecting my normal, like 15-minute appointment where my doctor says, "Everything looks great. Do you have any questions?" And I say, "Nope." And she says, "Okay, great. We'll see you next week or next month?" Well, no next week at that point. So that's what I was expecting. But we went in and they went to go listen to the baby's heartbeat and immediately I just, I saw my doctor's face, like drop and I think she quickly tried to recover, but I saw it. And then she called out for help actually, to get me into another room, to be hooked up to a different fetal heart rate monitor. And then she started to tell me that she heard the baby's heart rate just sounded very, very low when she hooked me up to that. And it made her nervous. So she put me onto another monitor.

[00:05:27] And then, when she was monitoring me for a little bit longer, like 10 minutes, heartrate came right back up. So she said, you know, I think he's okay. We didn't know where was he at the time, but. "I think he's okay. But, you know, I saw the heart rate drop. I heard the heart rate drop and I can't ignore that. So we need to get you to the hospital and, you know, they'll hook you up to monitors just for a prolonged period of time, just so that we can see if it happens again. So that all makes sense. All sounds logical. I just started crying, and you know, really hard that Mike wasn't able to be there at that point.

[00:05:59] And I tried to call him to tell him that we had to go to the hospital, and I just couldn't even get the words out. I was just so shocked. And I think, I think half of the shock too, was the idea that like, "Oh my God be a mom like tomorrow; I might be a mom like today." And I just was so unprepared for that.

[00:06:17] I felt actually prepared for birth. I wasn't that prepared to like, be a mom yet. So that was a big shock and then

[00:06:25] Lisa: Those are different things, right? Very different things.

[00:06:28] Erin: Yeah. Yeah. So I tried to call Mike and tell him what we were doing and just probably completely terrified him by just crying on the phone.

[00:06:36] And I actually had to give the phone to my doctor and I was like, "You tell him," and then, yeah, so Mike had to come back for me. We went to Lenox Hill, that's where we were scheduled to deliver. So we went over to Lenox Hill.

[00:06:47] Lisa: Can I paused there for a second just to ask Mike: what were you feeling in those moments?

[00:06:53] Mike: Yeah, I mean, it was like Erin said it was fairly shocking, but you just have to-- again, similarly, I didn't feel that prepared for it, but you just kind of react to those situations. But again, it was hard to understand just to, through a phone what was going on. And so, you know, it kind of was like, well, we need to go to the hospital for more checkups.

[00:07:12] I was like, okay, well we'll just kind of go with that and, and then react to that basically. So yeah, it all happened very fast as well. So, yeah, it was pretty surprising.

[00:07:21] Erin: Yeah. And then just in terms of being prepared too, for being parents, we also just, we weren't like prepared with anything at home. We had nothing ready. We didn't have a hospital bags packed

[00:07:30] Lisa: I was about to ask; did you listen when I said be packed by 36 weeks?

[00:07:34] Erin: You know, in my mind it was like on my to-do list, pack your hospital bag at 36 weeks. And I was at 36 weeks and I just had kept pushing it a little bit and a little bit.

[00:07:44] Lisa: Sure, most of us do.

[00:07:45] Erin: [I was thinking,] "When I get to 36 weeks, I really, I really have to do this."

[00:07:49] Mike: I had printed out all of the relevant checklists and things from your notes that you provided, which I thought was excellent. And, so I had them in a little binder ready to go. So then it just became a case of finding the binder, you know.

[00:07:59] Lisa: I love binders; that's music to my ears.

[00:08:04] Erin: So now we're off to Lenox Hill. We get there. And of course Mike can't come in there either. Because even though they do allow support people, you know, we didn't know if I was being admitted yet. So I was just in triage. And you can't have your support person with you in triage.

[00:08:18] Lisa: Did they test you for Covid when you arrived there?

[00:08:21] Erin: They did. So that's actually something that I wanted to mention too.

[00:08:24] So we get to Lenox Hill and I'm still in the triage area and when I'm there, they're checking, they checked a few things. They checked his heart rate again and at that point, his heart rate had come back up.

[00:08:34] So that was fine. His amniotic fluid was fine, but then when they did a sonogram to see his like activity levels, he wasn't moving at all for 30 minutes. And then they took me off for a little bit and then they put it back on and he still wasn't moving at all for 30 minutes. So at that point they said, you know, we really think technically you're full term and we should just deliver the baby today.

[00:08:55] Waterworks for me again, I just was like completely in shock. And that's really, really unlike me. I'm like a very relaxed, very measured person, but I was just in total shock. So, tried to call Mike and give him the news again. And at that point you still weren't with me. You were in Central Park or something.

[00:09:16] Mike: Yeah. So I, I parked the car and was just kind of wandering around trying to think of something to do. And then basically when, when Erin got the news that she would be induced and would be delivering, I kind of managed to force my way in basically (for want of a better word) into Lenox Hill and got up to the maternity ward.

[00:09:32] I still wasn't allowed to see Erin because she was in the labor unit, but had a conversation with the doctor where they were trying to explain these, these points to me around the baby's heart rate. It's like lack of movement. And, and you've got all these like feelings going through your face that I'm trying to control as this doctor's telling you, you know, like, is the baby well, is there some issue.

[00:09:53] And I just remember him talking for about five minutes and it sounded terrible. It really did actually. He's like, we can't get any movement. There's no hand kind of movement or anything like this. And then you said, the baby's fine, it's more that the environment it's in [that] we're worried about. So that's why we're inducing.

[00:10:09] I probably should have told you that at the beginning. And I was like, in my head, I was like, "yeah, ya think?"

[00:10:17] I managed to say, "Yeah. Oh, well, that's very good news. Thank you."

[00:10:22] Erin: And there was another moment there in triage before I was with Mike that I wanted to mention, because it makes me think of a lot of what we went over in your class, which was about, you know, advocacy. And I think that's something we really didn't think so much about before your class and then thought a lot about after, just Mike being an advocate for me. And I knew that was something that was going to be really important to me. Just to be able to, like we talked about in class, like sort of turn off that part of my brain and just be sort of emotionally connected to what was happening and know that like Mike was going to be kind of handling the logistics for me.

[00:10:54] So in that moment, I was then really trying to still hold on to that and trying to be like, okay, but Mike's my advocate. And I need him to help me make these decisions. Like, I don't know what's going on. I was just really in shock and really kind of out of body experience. And so I remember at one point saying to the doctor, like, "Could we just, could we admit me and get my husband in the room with me so that we can just make these decisions together?" And he looked at me like a little strange, and then he was like, well, which decisions are you talking about? And then all of a sudden it clicked in my head that like, oh, these aren't choices, like this is, this is where we're at. Like, this is I have to be induced because the baby's in distress. I need an epidural, which I wasn't initially planning on getting an epidural, at least not right away. I was going to wait as long as I could to get one. I'm getting an epidural right away. Like these are just things that unfortunately are going to have to happen because this is no longer like a normal birth. And so that sort of clicked to me in that moment, which was still hard.

[00:11:56] And I was still pretty upset, like, but I at least understood that like at this point in time, I, I kinda, I just, they know what's right. And I just have to go with that.

[00:12:06] Mike: Yeah, but I think we, we talked about it since, and one of the things we really took from your, your sessions, was that this concept of advocacy and, you know, it almost helped us as well to stay kind of grounded in what was quite a fast-moving and kind of dynamic situation.

[00:12:22] And, and like, as Erin said, like a number of things were kind of taken out of our control because of the medical situation, but in other ways, we, what we learned kind of helped prepare us for, for that in itself, you know? And they were like, okay, well, we are gonna do this. We are in control of what's happening to some degree and we're going to kind of run with that, you know?

[00:12:40] Yeah. At least that's how I felt about it. You know, so it was good.

[00:12:44] Erin: So, and I'm admitted. And they moved me into my delivery room and I still haven't seen Mike yet, so now it's been hours and I still haven't seen Mike and now we're kind of going back and forth about whether he should go home and get stuff that we may need.

[00:12:55] Cause we have nothing on us. Like we just showed up at the hospital in the clothes we wore to work that day. And yeah, and, and almost just nothing on us. I hadn't eaten breakfast. Like it was the worst. There was just like, not --it was exactly what you don't want to do. So we were going back and forth and trying to get answers from the doctors.

[00:13:14] Like, because he was already, you know, up on the maternity floor, could he leave and come back? Or it took a while to even figure that out, which is kind of funny. Cause I thought, you know, we're already like, well into the pandemic. Why don't they know the answers to these questions? But I think we realized that everybody was still just like figuring it out every day.

[00:13:32] So at this point I'm still relatively not okay. Like I'm still in shock. I still haven't seen Mike. I'm still can't believe that I'm about to have a baby. And that all of these things are out of my control. But there's a couple of things that happened then when I was in the delivery room by myself, waiting for Mike, he did go home to get stuff in the middle of the thunderstorm, you can tell that part. So there's a couple of things that, that happened to me in that delivery room. When I was there by myself, that kind of helped me move on. So one was my COVID test, actually. So that was where they gave me the COVID test. And I remember the PA or the nurse, I can't remember who it was, came in. And she was warning me, you know, "We're going to do this nasal swab and like, it really hurts and it's really unpleasant." And she's explaining how far back, like into your, you know, nasal passage. It goes, she was like, "I'm sorry I have to do this, but take a deep breath. She said, she gave me a few kinds of tips. And so we did it and it was fine and I didn't even flinch. And she was like, "Wow. You didn't even flinch like good for you. Like most people that really bothers most people." I remember thinking like, "That's right. I'm strong. I can do this." Like I just think it was a great reminder to myself like, "I'm strong. I have a high tolerance for pain. I can do this. If I just like wrap my head around it, I can do it." So that was actually like a really positive thing that happened to me.

[00:15:00] Lisa: I think it's amazing -- the power of words. I mean, just the fact that the nurse acknowledged how brave you were in those moments, you know, I was like, that's huge. Because it reminded you of what you needed to be reminded of in this time.

[00:15:13] Erin: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. It really was notable. And then shortly after that, like after all they’ve kind of done all the tests, whatever they needed to do. And then I was in the room by myself. There [were] no doctors or nurses or anyone in there with me.

[00:15:26] And Mike wasn't there yet and I was still just feeling pretty nervous. And one of the nurses that suggested like, maybe you want to like walk around as much as you can before you get your epidural. And I was also starting to feel very nervous that like, they kept warning me. The epidural was coming and like, Mike still wasn't there yet.

[00:15:39] I really wanted him to be there. So I was just kind of pacing around. I already had the IV in my arm- - another thing that I had hoped I wouldn't need to do, but did, so I was kind of pacing around my room and then I kind of remember, I like looked at my bag or whatever I'd brought with me and all of a sudden I was like, "wait a minute. I brought a notebook to the doctor's office in case I needed to write anything down. And that's the same notebook that I use to take notes during my birth class." So I actually had with me, like all of my, kind of rough notes from your class, and I started leafing through them and just like reminding myself of all of these things, like breathing exercises and what happens when you get induced and just kind of the basics that I had, like jotted down and things I wanted to remember.

[00:16:24] And I remember just, you know, reading through that and feeling like a sense of, you know, control returning to me that I just, I knew I had knowledge. I knew what I was doing. I knew what was about to happen to me. And I like actually said to myself, like, you have to get your head in the game, stop feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:16:41] Like this is what's happening. Like just get on with it. So, and that's what I did. And then like Mike showed up and I started like texting my family and friends a little bit more. Like I'd kind of was like not, I was too in shock to do anything. And all of a sudden I was like, just have the experience you wanted as much as you can.

[00:16:59] Like I was texting my sister, sending them pictures, both my sisters wanted to FaceTime me. So like I started just doing more normal things, even though it was a very not normal time. And then that was really like the turning point for me. I really kind of felt much more comfortable at that point. And we were able to just and then, of course, Mike showed up and we were able to just kind of go with it. So.

[00:17:20] Mike: Yeah, and I think, for me, I'd driven home and was just throwing things in a bag. But again, in some ways it wasn't as chaotic as it could have been, because we knew what we needed. You know, whether it's like snacks or supplements or, well,

[00:17:33] Erin: You say that except you packed like tons of stuff that I couldn't use at all.

[00:17:38] Lisa: Well, that always happens. No matter the birth scenario. Better to have it and not need it, right?

[00:17:44] Erin: Also lots of things I did need, yeah.

[00:17:47] Mike: So it was good. We've got a dog as well. So I had to kind of run her around in the rain for 20 minutes and then get back in the car and drive straight back over to the hospital to get admitted.

[00:17:56] So it was great.

[00:17:58] Lisa: Did they --right fun times!---Did they test you for Covid, Mike?

[00:18:03] Mike: They did. Yeah. So they did, just stay well, they just did a thermometer test that they held to the forehead. And they, that was the only thing that I got tested for yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:11] Erin: And then we had a very pretty normal birth after that, after the initial shock. So they induced, I got the epidural, and then Pitocin. And so they started the induction, with foley balloon as well.

[00:18:24] Lisa: Foley and pitocin together at the same time?

[00:18:26] Erin: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That was around eight o'clock at night. And they said, "See if you can get some sleep," and they hooked the fetal heart rate monitor over my stomach. And so they were kind of clocking my contractions that I didn't even know that I was having. So I really didn't feel anything. I did manage to get a good amount of sleep. I think I woke up occasionally when people were coming in and like, prodding me and taking my temperature.

[00:18:54] But I really didn't know anything was even happening. And then...

[00:18:58] Lisa: Mike, were you able to sleep at all?

[00:19:01] Mike: A little bit, yeah. So after the initial kind of flurry of getting the epidural and kind of settling in as it were, I kind of thought that we would be in for like the long haul, you know, so I kind of like dropped my kind of hyper-alertness and, yeah. And so I think I dozed off probably kind of later on into the evening, and then things started to move quite fast after that. So again, I had to get kind of back up to speed pretty quickly, really.

[00:19:21] Erin: Yeah. It just went really fast. So you know the timeline probably better than I do?

[00:19:26] Mike: Yeah. So I think after the, well, so after the epidural and then the foley balloon and, you know, that was the initial thing, then we kind of slept for a little bit. Then they came in and said you were about five or six centimeters.

[00:19:38] I remember saying, and I was, I remember thinking, wow, that was pretty fast, actually.

[00:19:42] Erin: Yeah. And then they took out the balloon.

[00:19:43] Mike: They took out the balloon. Then I remember, we did some, some breathing exercise stuff with contractions around 2:00 AM, maybe or 2 or 3:00 AM. And again, I thought, okay, we're progressing.

[00:19:54] And then I remember a nurse coming in and saying, "Oh, you're kind of fully dilated." But actually between that, and there were a couple of times when like a lot of nurses came into the room at the same time and what was happening. Well, you can probably explain this better, but, during the contractions, the heart rate would drop quite significantly.

[00:20:12] And so every time I kind of clocked that when the heart rate dropped, more people arrived and there were definitely some points where the rate dropped very significantly to the point where the doctors on call, were looking, were getting ready to move you for a C-section actually. They said that we have to be kind of fully prepared to do this if the heart rate doesn't keep coming back up. So I remember that happening periodically through the early hours of the

[00:20:34] Erin: morning.

[00:20:34] Right. Which, which was also the reason that I needed the epidural from the get-go. I forgot to mention that was because they wanted to be prepared to go into an emergency C-section at any point. Okay.

[00:20:45] Because of the heart rate.

[00:20:46] Lisa: I was gonna ask about that. Because the way you shared it, it sounded like it was necessary, but I wasn't clear on why. Thank you for sharing that, clarifying.

[00:20:54] Erin: Yeah. So yeah, I think it was when I was maybe like seven or more centimeters dilated already. Is when I actually started to feel some contractions.

[00:21:02] And we did breathing exercises. And then I think with those heavier contractions in active labor, is when they started seeing, noticing the heart rate dropping dangerously low again with each contraction. And it was a little bit freaky cause I could like hear the monitor behind me as well.

[00:21:19] And then as Mike describes, too, he's sort of parallel with me by my shoulders looking at me, but then he's also looking at all of the doctors looking at the heart rate monitor behind me and all of their faces, just looking very drawn.

[00:21:34] Mike: Very, very severe phases, yeah. Kind of you can work out cause you know, when we're not medical people at all, but you know, so you don't know the details of the complexities, but you can read faces and you can tell when people are making decisions, you know?

[00:21:48] And so it's like, well, you know, clearly this is a crunch point. They're making a decision at some, you know, and we have to go with what they think really.

[00:21:54] Erin: Yeah, so I think, yeah, that was like around seven or eight centimeters and I was feeling some contractions, but breathing through it.

[00:22:00] And then we were concerned about the heart rate. They warned us we might need to still go into the OR, even if just like precautionary, my doctor had also said we might just move to the OR so that we're ready to go. But to my doctor's credit, she was like, "Let's give it a little bit longer. You're doing great. Let's see how it goes." And then, you know, before we knew it, they came back in and they were like, "Oh, you're fully dilated. You can push. So that, yeah, we're ready to go.

[00:22:29] Lisa: When you said you started feeling contractions, did you have a push-button, a PCA button to be able to like top off the--

[00:22:34] Erin: I did. And I was like, I'm not going to use it. I'm not going to use it. I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't know what my point was at that point. Like really trying not to use it or should I just keep going with it because I'm not feeling anything and that's kind of nice, but do I want to feel something like you just don't really even know what to think when you've never done it before and so much has already gone out the window that you prepared yourself for.

[00:22:58] So it was starting to wear off. And so that's why I started to feel the contractions again. But then I think one of the nurses did convince me that I should push the button again for a little top off, which I think at the end of the day, I'm probably glad that I did. Because then we started pushing and I was only pushing for like 15 minutes and I didn't feel anything at all.

[00:23:19] For me, not in a bad way, I was perfectly happy with the way that it went, to not have to feel that. It just, I felt pressure, but no pain. And I remember that they had just described to me like how to push and how it should feel. And then we just went for it and I'm like a pretty sort of mental kind of person, like, I can just wrap my head around how you're supposed to do things and I can just do it. And, you know, remember the nurses were all kind of like, and the doctor's like, "Good job! A lot of people, you know, with the epidural really have trouble pushing because you can't feel what you're doing." But they were like, "You're doing it perfectly."

[00:23:52] Lisa: That's what you want to hear.

[00:23:54] Erin: That was a real confidence booster, too. And I was like, "I can do this." But again, while I was pushing, like they were watching the heart rate and we were hearing the heart rate drop really low. So we knew that it was connected.

[00:24:06] You know, the fact that the heart rate kept dropping and then going back up, it's connected to my contractions and obviously connected to whether or not we could actually get the baby out. So that was a little scary. And my doctor again, kept warning me. Like, "we, we really may need to move into an emergency c-section still, but like, let's give it a couple more pushes and see if we can do it. Cause like you're doing great." She also warned me, like she thought she was like, "I'll probably have to do an episiotomy -- I can never say that word.

[00:24:33] Lisa: Episiotomy.

[00:24:34] Erin: Episiotomy. Because she just, you know, she was just like, I just really want to get this baby out.

[00:24:38] Like I just, I don't like the heart rate. We just really want to get this baby out. So she warned me of all these things, but then at the end of the day, like it just worked out. And I pushed for about 15, 20 minutes. And he came out. So Nate was born, without, yeah, so we didn't need a C-section in the end.

[00:24:56] Lisa: Did you feel that urgency when they were continuing to talk about C-section? Were you like, "I'm going to push with all my might.”?

[00:25:02] Erin: yeah, definitely mentally, I was like, "I can do this, I can do this. I can do this. Like, I'm going to just do exactly what they told me to do. And like, I can do it."

[00:25:11] And of course Mike was there with me and like, you know, cheering me on and also telling me like, "You're doing great. You're doing so great." So

[00:25:19] Lisa: Were you up at her head or where are you?

[00:25:21] Mike: Yeah, I stayed at the head level. But it's really interesting. Like you just have to, yeah, there's very little, you can do physically as a partner in that position.

[00:25:31] So you just have to, well, I mean, I was just kind of in awe actually of the, of the whole situation, frankly. And just kind of trying to stay positive and, you know, positive attitude and calming and those kinds of things and yeah. As supportive as possible, really.

[00:25:45] Erin: Another part of the story that I always kind of forget to tell, because I like, I get to this point and I'm like, and then he did it.

[00:25:50] We had the baby and everything was great. So, and then people always ask me like, but what happened? Yeah. So, so his umbilical cord was wrapped around his neck and also around his foot twice.

[00:26:03] Lisa: Oh, wow. Okay. That might explain the heart rate. Right.

[00:26:08] Mike: Yeah, I wasn't allowed to cut the cord because they wanted to get it kind of off as quickly as possible.

[00:26:15] Erin: Yeah. And then he was born very small. So he's only four and a half pounds; really tiny. Probably also why it was so easy to push. But so because he was so small and because of the heart rate and the umbilical cord, they also sort of had to whisk him right away to the little, the little incubator first on the side or whatever that table is.

[00:26:35] And so the doctors could do an examination on him. So I remember feeling a little sad in that moment, too, that like, I didn't get to have that immediate skin to skin, which I knew that like my doctor would prioritize and I needed the hospital prioritized. So it was a little bit upsetting that I had to even like ask for it.

[00:26:51] But, you know, they had to check him first and then they did bring him over to me and they said we're going to have to bring him to the NICU because he's underweight to check on those heart issues. But we got like 20 minutes with him, maybe? Maybe less.

[00:27:04] Mike: Yeah. I think they brought him back fairly quickly or as quickly as they could do.

[00:27:08] And then, yeah, it was like, you've got a bit of time before he had to be taken away.

[00:27:12] Lisa: Oh wait, can we back up a second to when he was born? You didn't know if he was a boy or girl, right. So what was that like? Did one of you want to announce it, or did the doctor tell you or what ?

[00:27:24] Mike: Delivered him and said, it's a boy, I think

[00:27:26] Erin: I remember thinking that was very anti-climactic. Maybe just after everything that we had been through that day, you know, it was just like, it's a boy. Oh, okay. It was going to be one or the other,

[00:27:40] Lisa: Right!

[00:27:40] Mike: I remember being pleased. Well, I just remember being so, cause I was really worried beforehand that I would be like, really emotional during the whole thing. I was worried about that. But actually I was very calm and, and at that point, just like super positive actually. So I was just beaming from ear to ear and they were like, "He's going [to the NICU]." I was like, "he's going to the NICU," and, "He's coming back over." -- "He's coming back over here, it's great!"

[00:28:02] That's good.

[00:28:03] Lisa: So he went to the NICU and did you go with him?

[00:28:07] Mike: Yeah. So I stayed with him and I actually remember asking you that, and you said, go with him. So I did,

[00:28:12] Lisa: Yeah, because I would think you'd feel a little torn, like I want to be with both of you.

[00:28:16] Mike: Yeah, yeah. I just remember asking what you'd feel more comfortable with and then went with him, and they, they put that stuff on his eyes, you know, whatever that kind of, what is that

[00:28:25] Lisa: Erythromycin? Yeah, the antibiotic eye ointment.

[00:28:30] Mike: Like jabbed him in his heels quite a few times with various things.

[00:28:32] And, but yeah, they got him bundled up and into an incubator, and then they were feeding him quite quickly, obviously. And then, yeah, just stayed with him for probably about an hour or so I think. And then I came back to see you at that point.

[00:28:46] Lisa: I'm glad they let you go with them because with COVID I wasn't so sure if they would allow that or not. But very glad to hear that.

[00:28:54] Mike: I feel like, yeah, they well the way it seemed practically to work because once you're in the ward, you're in a bubble, basically, so you could freely move around between the NICU and where we were staying without being stopped or anything like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:07] Erin: People keep asking me if I had to wear a mask and I can't remember. I don't think I did.

[00:29:11] Mike: No you didn't, not in the actual room.

[00:29:14] Lisa: Not even in labor?

[00:29:16] Erin: No. I think I was wearing one at first. And then at some point, at some point I felt nauseous and I think the nurse was like, "Just take off your mask." And then that was it. We never put it back on. And then even during our, because Nate was in the NICU, we stayed in the hospital for two nights with him.

[00:29:33]And even throughout that experience, like we had to wear masks when we were walking around the halls and then not really in our room. And we had to wear a mask in the NICU, too.

[00:29:43] Mike: Yeah, sorry, you reminded me. Yeah. Yeah, we had to wear masks walking between our room to the NICU. I do remember that now. Yeah.

[00:29:50] Erin: But anyway, we've kind of sped ahead, but, but then, I mean, then everything was fine.

[00:29:55] Mike: Yeah. So then we spent a couple of days in the hospital and we basically, you're only allowed one person in the NICU with the baby. So we had to take it in turns to do that. And then you want to talk about the breastfeeding and how he's fed and stuff like that.

[00:30:07] Erin: Yeah. And then, you know, the lactation coach at Lenox Hill was super helpful to me.

[00:30:13] And, yeah, we just spent the next day like sort of learning how to breastfeed, and taking like the colostrum back and forth to him in the NICU and those teeny tiny little tubes. And so we'd go for his feedings, like every three hours. And it was a little sad not to have him in the room with us and to feel like we were missing out on that bonding time a little bit.

[00:30:34] I was concerned about that. Like, that I didn't get skin to skin right away. And we didn't get that bonding time that first night, but at the same time, like it was nice to get some sleep. And it was nice to just, you know, you know, that he's being really well cared for and that we kind of didn't have to like do it all ourselves.

[00:30:54]So there's, you know, positives to everything. And yeah, and we would just go visit him. And, you know, try and I try and breastfeed every three hours and then we'd give him a bottle. And every time we went into the NICU, the nurses would show us something else to do, like, show us how to put on his diapers or show us how to feed him the right way.

[00:31:13] Lisa: Yeah.

[00:31:14] Did he have any sucking issues? Cause often when they're born before 37 weeks or right around there, sometimes they have a little bit of challenge with sucking.

[00:31:23] Erin: No. He's just been such a trooper the whole, you know, we never believed that he was born early, like had a problem with his heart rate when it was only four and a half pounds. So we're 10 weeks in and he's 10 pounds now.

[00:31:36] Lisa: Wow, healthy baby.

[00:31:38] Erin: He's very healthy. He's really like, come back, from where he started and. Yeah, we're all getting well used to each other now. 

[00:31:49] Lisa: I'm sure that you made up for lost time in terms of missing out on that initial, you know, longer bonding time.

[00:31:55] We're resilient human beings, right?

[00:31:57] Erin: For sure, yeah.

[00:31:59] Lisa: Nice

[00:32:00] Erin: Mike's bringing him over.

[00:32:02] Mike: Here he is.

[00:32:03] Lisa: Oh my goodness. What a cutie. I love how they hold their fists up by their head, their head in the sleep movement. So sweet.

[00:32:12] Mike: Oh, that's pretty cute.

[00:32:15] Lisa: He's adorable.

[00:32:18] I wanted to ask Mike, having not been able to be present for as much of the prenatal appointments and things.

[00:32:30]We were just talking about how we're resilient human beings and we can often make up for lost time. But do you feel like there was any impact on bonding with your son or, or how has that been? There's different timing for different people in terms of when we start to feel bonded and connected and attached to our babies, some of that's in pregnancy for some people, some people not until you meet them and sometimes like, not for weeks or months later. So what has that been like for you?

[00:32:55] Mike: Yeah, I think the kind of prenatal process and not being allowed to be kind of in the room. Well, actually it was a bit odd because to start with, I was allowed into the doctor's appointments and then at some point I was not allowed in. And so, yeah, so it was kind of weird to be, to start that process and, and then be cut out of it a little bit, obviously for entirely legitimate reasons, you know?

[00:33:18] But, I'm also the kind of person who likes to ask lots of questions and learn things. So I'm kind of, would just be asking the doctor things and,

[00:33:25] Erin: That's why my appointments went so much faster after Mike wasn't allowed.

[00:33:29] Mike: It was like, it was an anti-Mike policy rather than Covid. But no, and then once he arrived, it's been great. So I've felt very, very bonded to him very quickly actually. And, yeah, we've been like very active as co-parents, so I've enjoyed all of that and, yeah, just spending time with him actually. So it was good. And getting used to working again with him here is a balancing act, but we're kind of working on definitely.

[00:33:54] Erin: Yeah. I think one thing to that as well, is that, because he was in the NICU and he was underweight, they put him on like a feeding plan for us. So it was 20 minutes of breastfeeding and they gave me other restrictions as well. Like they didn't want me to switch sides because it would take too much energy for him to like, relatch on.

[00:34:13] So, and they said try it for 20 minutes, whether he latches or not, don't go past 20 minutes. Cause it will take up too much of his energy. Then we gave him a bottle of breast milk, preferably it was formula at first. And then once my milk came in, it was breast milk. And. Oh, and actually at first it was going to be breastfeed, then breast milk, if you have any, and then formula, that it was like a three-pronged approach. And then pretty quickly, like my milk came in pretty fast, so we didn't need formula anymore. But we just kind of just stayed on that routine of like a mix of breastfeeding and bottle feeding.

[00:34:49] So I think that's helped Mike as well, because I obviously do the breastfeeding and then Mike does all the bottle feeding for the most part. We really kind of share in the feeding and it's funny because again, like I, that wasn't really my plan. I was going to try and exclusively breastfeed at least for a few weeks, you know, like make sure that he got it.

[00:35:06]But since we were doing bottle feeding right from the NICU, we just went with it and it's completely fine. In fact, it's better than fine. I'm like so happy that I don't have to do it all myself. Yeah.

[00:35:18] Mike: Yeah, and it's nice. It's nice feeding, actually. It's a nice process and it does help with the kind of bonding definitely.

[00:35:22] Lisa: Yeah. Oh, nice. Glad to hear that. And I was also just thinking that since so many of us are still working at home, that that might also be a surprising benefit that's helping the partners to bond, helping everyone to bond with their babies, but being able to be around the home with the baby more than they might have otherwise been.

[00:35:44]But like you're saying it is a bit of a juggling act at the same time, but just from that bonding perspective, I think maybe that's helping make up for some of the missed prenatal appointments, perhaps.

[00:35:55] Mike: Right.

[00:35:55] Erin: I'm sure. Yeah. I mean, again, like we can't-- we don't know it any other way. It's, it's hard. It's hard to imagine, like, what if you were already back at work in an office and I'll be starting work again from home in a few weeks. And what if I was going back into an office? It's hard to imagine, but yeah.

[00:36:12] Lisa: Hm. Well, so this has been lovely. Are there any things that you haven't gotten to share that you would like to share and/ or are there tips or insights, any wisdom, in your short time being parents that you would want to share either for birth or for parenting-- for expectant parents or new parents who might be listening?

[00:36:34] Mike: I think that getting used to the new sleep patterns is definitely something that's like the biggest thing for me. I'm actually impressed by how well I can operate on fragmented sleep. I don't know if it's just a natural instinct thing, like a physical thing that people do and get used to.

[00:36:50] But, yeah, that's been the hardest thing. I think someone said to me, and it really resonated, it was like, "Don't beat yourself up too much when there's like low points and don't, don't celebrate too much when you feel like you've got it sorted because it kind of turns very quickly."

[00:37:03] Lisa: Yes, it does. A growth spurt comes and everything's topsy-turvy.

[00:37:08] Mike: That definitely resonated with me. And it's kind of like something I kind of like hold close to me, actually. So.

[00:37:14] Erin: I think, for me, like my same tip for pregnancy, I would pass on for early childhood too, is kind of not to read too much. You know, too much information can mean a bad thing. I'm a journalist. I'm not even, I would say that. So yeah, I, I try and like stick to like one or two sources for things and not go down the rabbit hole of like obsessively Googling every noise that he makes. Cause it's just a little too much information. Or I just call my mom or my sister. But, yeah.

[00:37:46] Lisa: Yeah. That's wise advice there. Yeah. Find your credible sources, your one or two credible sources, whether that's relational or good trustworthy things online or both, and stick with that. Yeah. Cause it can be endless, right? And there's so many opinions and so many philosophies that it can be really overwhelming.

[00:38:04] Erin: Yeah, or just go with it, you know, it just, yeah, we're just, we're just going with it. Yeah, I'll try exactly, you try something, see if that works. You know, the baby has a will to live, so I feel that we cannot do all that much harm.

[00:38:19] Lisa: Oh, great. Well, thank you so much for this. This has been so great to hear your son's birth story and about your transformation into parenthood. I hope that we can meet down the road when it's safe to do so at a future reunion in Astoria Park. I would love to meet your little one and meet you guys face to face because we've only met on Zoom.

[00:38:42] Erin: That'd be great. One day, one day. We'll get there.

[00:38:45] Lisa: Yeah. All right, well, thanks again. Have a great day.

[00:38:49] Erin: Yeah. Thank you. Bye.