Today, Desire shares her son’s birth story just a few weeks after the birth, which was a 3-day long hospital induction at Forest Hills Hospital in Queens. She was determined to do it without pain medications and was able to do just that. Also determined to breastfeed, Desire shares the varied experiences she had with hospital staff trying to support her in breastfeeding, and how disempowering language was not helpful. With some perseverance and professional lactation support at home once she and baby were discharged, she details how things improved fairly quickly. Desi explains a few ways that her mother expresses strong opinions, and how Desi has to be confident and do what she believes is best for her baby. She shares about her very unpleasant early first experience trying to change her son’s diaper and breastfeed at a shopping mall, and how she identified a store that was a much better environment for young families. Finally, she’ll provide some smart insights on speaking up when you need help and regularly checking in to be sure your partner is doing okay in early parenthood.
Episode Topics:
Induction due to autoimmune condition called Sjogren’s Syndrome
Due to slow progress with initial induction medications, OB inserts a foley balloon dilates Desire’s cervix
Starting pitocin
Coping on ball, with counterpressure techniques from husband, breathing coaching from Desire’s mom
Urge to push, pushing baby out in only 3 pushes
A great nurse who was very supportive of Desire’s desire to give birth without pain meds
Not getting to see the sponge bath
Lactation nurse comes in, being told she has a “bad nipple” and needs to use nipple shields at first
Desi’s mom being anxious about milk coming in
Using a bit of formula while continuing to breastfeed and waiting for milk to come in
How Desi thinks the lactation consultant could have worded things in a more uplifting, helpful way
Having a different opinion from a hospital nurse, telling her she didn’t need the nipple shield and to instead put sugar water on the nipple to get baby to latch on
Going home with baby, Desi hires a lactation consultant
Grandparent’s advice conflicting with parental instincts and education
Challenges breastfeeding & changing diaper for the first time at a mall
Insights: Speaking up for yourself when you need help, checking in with partner on how they’re doing
Resources:
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Transcript:
Lisa (00:00): You’re listening to the Birth Matters Podcast, Episode 27.
Desire (00:03): The nurses were amazing. Because other nurses kept coming in, and they were like, "You sure you don't want any pain medications?" And then Alexis would look at me, she's like, "You don't need it." She's like, "You've gone through, like, crazy contractions, and you don't need it." She's like, "You're going to deliver your baby the way you want to deliver your baby." It was great. It was fantastic. I was so thankful when she, when they switched to her, I was like, I didn't know her and she was quiet at first, but she was amazing.
Lisa (00:39): Hey there! And welcome to the Birth Matters Show. I'm your host, Lisa Greaves Taylor, founder of Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education and Labor Support. This show is here to lessen your overwhelm on the journey into parenthood by equipping and encouraging you with current best evidence info and soulful interviews with parents and birth pros. Please keep in mind the information on this show is not intended as medical advice or to diagnose or treat any medical conditions. Did you know you can sign up to receive email updates whenever a new episode goes live? Visit birthmattersshow.com to join our podcast community.
Lisa (01:17): Today, Desire shares her son’s birth story just a few weeks after the birth, which was a 3-day long hospital induction at Forest Hills Hospital in Queens. She was determined to do it without pain medications and was able to do just that. Also determined to breastfeed, Desire shares the varied experiences she had with hospital staff trying to support her in breastfeeding, and how disempowering language was not helpful. With some perseverance and professional lactation support at home once she and baby were discharged, she details how things improved fairly quickly. Desi explains a few ways that her mother expresses strong opinions, and how Desi has to be confident and do what she believes is best for her baby. She shares about her very unpleasant early first experience trying to change her son’s diaper and breastfeed at a shopping mall, and how she identified a store that was a much better environment for young families. Finally, she’ll provide some smart insights on speaking up when you need help and regularly checking in to be sure your partner is doing okay in early parenthood. Before we get started, if you'd, like, to receive your free pack for your best birth checklist and my free mini course with some expert tips for your best birth, please visit birthmattersonline.com/pack, which you can also find linked in the show notes. Okay, let's jump in.
Desire (02:41): Yeah, so my name is Desire Marulanda. I'm almost two months into my parenthood journey. This is Benjamin. He was born at New York Forest Hills Hospital, so it'll be two months next Thursday.
Lisa (02:54): Wow, you're still in that fourth trimester space.
Desire (02:58): Yeah, and so I went 40 weeks, so I went to my due date, and I had to be induced because I have an autoimmune condition called Sjogren's syndrome. And so for baby to be inside longer was not dangerous for baby, but dangerous for me. So I had to be induced on my birthday, May 15th.
Lisa (03:23): What? I didn't realize that part.
Desire (03:25): Yeah. That was his due date. And he didn't come until three days later. When I got to the hospital, I wasn't really sure what to expect. I kind of knew that there were—it was going to take a while, based on what we had learned in your class. But I didn't realize how long that actually was gonna take, and what that procedure kind of felt like. I had been walking two weeks before because I took off two weeks from work. Just walking and walking and walking to try to, I guess, move labor on.
Desire (03:57): And I thought I was doing a good job because I even had some false alarms. But those Braxton Hicks, they were just Braxton Hicks. And when I went into the hospital on my due date, the doctor's like, "You're not even a little bit dilated." She's like, "So this is going to take a long time."
Lisa (04:14): Oh, that's just what you want to hear.
Desire (04:15): Yeah. And I was like, "What's a long time?"
Lisa (04:18): That's very nebulous, isn't it?
Desire (04:20): And she's like, "Three days, probably." And I was like, "Okay, so go over what's going to happen." And she's like, "So first we're going to put you on a drug that's going to thin out your cervix and dilate you, and we're going to go in doses in increments of twenty." So she's like, "We'll give you 20 ccs, and then 40, and then 60. When we reach 60—and then there's three rounds of each—when we reach the last round of the 40, we'll talk about where you're at. If you're dilated, then we can start Pitocin. But if you're not, then we will have to either go through the whole process of the 60, and then see where you're at, or start the first dose of 60 and manually dilate you with the balloon and then move from there." And I was like, "So what happens if nothing happens?" And she's like, "So then we start it over again, and if at the end of the second time nothing happens, then we are going to have to do a C-section." And so I started crying, and David was like, "Don't cry." He's like, "Maybe it'll work. Who knows?" So we started on and I was allowed to eat. I was allowed to walk around, which was great.
Lisa (05:39): Yay. Yeah—eating is not very common in our local hospitals.
Desire (05:43): I was worried about, because during our tour they had said that they weren't going to allow eating or drinking, but the PA on staff was, like, "No, you can eat and you can drink because it's going to take a while.
Lisa (05:54): Oh good.
Desire (05:55): All right. So that was eight o'clock in the morning and at around six o'clock someone came and checked on me and she was like—and at that point I was already in almost to the last dose of the 40—and she's like, "Let's see what happened." Because it was every two hours they were giving me this, this drink.
Lisa (06:19): Okay. So you, you were being given oral Cytotec?
Desire (06:23): Yes.
Lisa (06:23): Yeah. So that's a synthetic prostaglandin. For listeners who aren't familiar with Cytotec, it's a synthetic prostaglandin that helps to ripen the cervix and it can be administered vaginally more commonly, or orally. But I actually prefer the oral from everything I've heard. It restricts us to the bed less than administering it vaginally. So anyway, I just wanted to—thanks for letting me clarify that for the listener.
Desire (06:47): So yeah. When we got to that point— the PA had—they had switched shifts and she's like, "I'm gonna suggest that we do the manual dilation just because we want to reduce the risk of you having to have a C-section." She's like, "Because your birth plan says you don't want one, and you've been doing really well so far." She's like, "You've been walking like crazy." She's like, "So let's see where you're at." So she checked me and she's like, "You're not dilated at all."
Lisa (07:18): Oh.
Desire (07:18): She's like, let's, she's like, "I know that you didn't want to do the manual dilation, but let's, let's try, and if it works then, you know, then you're four centimeters dilated, because it's supposed to pop out at four centimeters." And I was like, "Okay." And she made it sound like it wasn't going to be a very painful process. It was excruciatingly painful because I wasn't dilated, not even a little bit. So for me it was painful. Maybe for someone else it might not have been.
Lisa (07:48): It does depend on how soft your cervix is, for sure. The firmer you are, the more it's going to hurt.
Desire (07:54): So for me it was painful, but they did allow me to walk with it once it was inserted, and they gave me the first dose of the 60.
Lisa (08:04): Now when you said inserted, you're talking about the Foley balloon, right?
Desire (08:07): Yes.
Lisa (08:07): So yeah. Okay. So yeah, this is a balloon that goes inside the cervix and it helps to push the cervix open.
Desire (08:15): So the insertion wasn't painful, but the—when they inflate the balloon, that was a little painful. And so she said to walk, because that would stimulate things to move along. At that point, I hadn't—my mucus plug hadn't come out. Like it was just like, Benny did not want to come. He was not ready. Not even a little bit. So maybe, like, two hours passed and I, like, my mom was there and David was there and I, my mom would be helping me in the bathroom and I was like, "I think I have to poop." And she's like, "Okay." And so we went into the bathroom and she was like, "Are you all right?" I'm like, "I don't know. Something's happening." And she's like, "Okay." And it hadn't been, like, more than two hours. So I was expecting nothing to happen. And then the balloon came out.
Lisa (09:02): Progress!
Desire (09:03): So I was like, "Yay! I'm four centimeters meters dilated." I'm like, "Maybe Benny comes on the 16th, like, he's going to come." Because at that point it was, like, midnight and my mom's like, "Maybe!" So then the tech comes in and she's like, "Yeah, you're, you're four centimeters dilated. I'm going to have the doctor come in in a little bit to see if we can start you on the Pitocin." And I was like, "Okay." So the doctor comes in, it's not my OB, she was on shift for the following day, the 16th, but the shift hadn't changed just yet. And so he looked at me and he's like, "Well," he's like, "You're stretched out to four centimeters." He's like, "You're not dilated to that point." And he's like, "You're maybe two-and-a-half centimeters dilated if I don't stretch it." And so that felt defeating. Because I was like, "Oh man, all of that, nothing happened."
Desire (09:48): And I was like, "Well, what could've gone wrong?" He's like, "A multitude of things could have happened." He's like, "Maybe it was inserted incorrectly or not blown up all the way or... but you're fine." He's like, "And we're just going to have to keep doing what we're doing." He's like—he says, "I'm going to give you the second dose and then the third dose and we'll see where we're at in the morning." So then I had some wonky nurse come in and she was just like, "You should just get a C-section." Like she was...
Lisa (10:14): Oh, what?
Desire (10:15): I was like, "No, that's not what I want." She's like, "You shouldn't suffer. We can put the epidural in now." I'm like, "I'm not even dilated." Like she was like—my mom just kept looking at me and she's like "Uh-uh," I was like, "I know."
Lisa (10:27): "I'm not listening to her, don't worry."
Desire (10:31): I was like, "I'm just going to go to sleep."
Lisa (10:36): Good for you. "I'm just going to not have to listen to this. By sleeping."
Desire (10:42): And so then morning came and my doctor saw me and she's like, "Well," she's like, "You're fully four centimeters dilated. So I'm going to start you on the Pitocin. So that's going to go gradually. I don't think you're going to need a lot. So we'll see where we're at, but I'm going to start you with the two per minute. Two drops per minute." And she's like, "And it'll increase every—I'm going to increase it every, like, two to four hours and check on you to see where you're at to see if you need more. And we'll go from there." And I was like, "Okay." And so the Pitocin started and I didn't feel anything for a while. And at that point she's like, "You can't leave the bed anymore."
Lisa (11:22): Oh.
Desire (11:23): She's like, "You have to be, like, in this bed." And the nurses that I got were like, "You can't..."
Lisa (11:27): Why? Why?
Desire (11:31): I don't know. She said she would evaluate, but at the beginning she was like, "You're not leaving this bed." I was like, "Okay." So they had me on the monitor and she's like, "Well, I'll check on you and see where we're at." So she checked me, like, that was at, I want to say that was, like, at six in the morning. At around, like, nine she came back into check, and she's like, "You're five centimeters dilated." She's like, "So things are moving along. Are you feeling anything?" And I was like, "No, like, I don't feel nothing." And she's like, "You don't feel any pain?" I was like...
Lisa (12:04): That's amazing at five centimeters. It's pretty unusual, although—huge range of normal.
Desire (12:10): I was like, "I don't feel anything." I'm like, "I feel, like, period cramping a little bit, but nothing crazy."
Lisa (12:15): And she's like, "Okay..."
Lisa (12:18): "This is unusual."
Desire (12:21): She's like, "Do you want to walk around?" And she let me walk around a little bit and she's like, "If, when you're six centimeters," she's like, "That's when I'm gonna—if your water hasn't already broken, I'm going to break your waters for you." And I was like, "Okay." So a long time passed with me just being five centimeters dilated, like, I wasn't moving along. And then around like, I want to say eight or nine o'clock the PA came to check in on me, and that's when things were starting to move along. Like I started to feel more, like, stronger period cramps, and my back started to hurt, but I still wasn't allowed to move. So at the shift change at seven, the nurse that eventually helped deliver my baby, she's like, "I'm gonna move you." She's like, "I'm going to put you on the bouncy ball."
Lisa (13:07): Yay!
Desire (13:10): She's like, "Because you're six centimeters almost." She's like, "I'm going to put you on the bouncy ball." And she let me, like, bounce around. And I was like, "Is this okay?" She's like, "Yeah, yeah, don't worry about it."
Lisa (13:20): Awesome!
Desire (13:20): And at that point she was like, "Do you want to ask for pain medication?" And I was like, "No, I'm okay. Like, I'm fine." And at nine o'clock I remember my whole family was there. My sister-in-law, my sister, my mom, David.
Lisa (13:34): They let everybody be in the room?
Desire (13:36): Just to see me. Because I wasn't moving along very—like, they thought that I wasn't gonna, like, my water wasn't gonna break or anything. So we were all laughing and laughing and laughing and I hear [pop] and I was like—the PA was still there and I was like, "I think my water broke." And she's like, "That's not—that can't happen." She's like, "Because I was just in there and nothing was happening." And I was like, "I'm pretty sure my water just broke." And so my niece was just like, "Eew."
Desire (14:11): She checked me and she's like, "Your water did break." She's like, "Your water did break." There was meconium in my water. And so they put me on oxygen and, like, literally maybe five minutes after my water broke, I got the first contraction.
Lisa (14:26): Started feeling them.
Desire (14:28): Oh yeah, yeah.
Lisa (14:29): Yeah. Losing some of that cushion really can do that.
Desire (14:33): And like, I saw everybody in the room, and I'm like, "You all need to leave right now."
Lisa (14:36): "Get out!"
Desire (14:36): My mom's like, "Are you okay?" I'm like, "No, this is for real. It hurts." And so the PA was like, "Do you want pain medication?" I was like, "No." I'm like, "It hurts. But I mean, I can deal with it." And she's like, "They're gonna just get stronger." I'm like, "I think I'll be okay." And she's like, "All right, you think it's going to take?" And she's like, "Well, it could take hours. It could take days." She's like, "So I'll check you around, like, 10 o'clock." And I was like, "All right." She's like, "If you feel the urge to push, like, you cannot not push any—like, you have to go—please get one of us right away." And I was like, "Okay." Maybe, like, an hour in, I was like, "David, go get somebody." I was like, "Go get somebody now." And he's like, "No, she said that it was going to take, like, hours." I'm like, "I don't think I got hours here." My contractions were really, really, really strong and I could see, like, the monitor, like, go "whooof!" And my mom, my mom was helping me with breathing. She did great. And then Dave was helping with counter pressure on my back. And I just kept feeling like I was peeing. But I was like, "David, you need to go grab somebody" So he grabbed her and she's like, "You're eight centimeters dilated. Not much longer, but maybe a little bit longer."
Desire (16:02): And around midnight, I was like, "You need to get someone right this instant, because I'm gonna poop this baby out. He's coming." And rightfully so. She came in and she's like, "You're 10 centimeters dilated and you're fully effaced." She's like, "So we need," she's like, "Show me how you push." And so I showed her how I pushed and she's like, "Okay, I'm gonna..."—they had already started getting everything ready when my water broke, like, everything in the room was ready for me to go. Because when I asked her, I was like, "Why is everybody getting ready?" And she's like, "Well," she's like, "You're, you're a first time mom. So how things can move very fast or things can move very, very, very slow. We're just going to be prepared." Because there were a whole bunch of women in that ward that were having babies. I could just hearing babies being born. So she's like, "We just need to be prepared in case, you know, he comes. So I pushed for three rounds of 10 holds each, and then he came out. And then, I thought because the blanket was over my legs, that I wasn't gonna see him being born. But my doctor, my OB delivered him and as soon as his head crowned, she took everything off. Like, I was completely exposed to all the nurses and David and my mom, each one was holding my legs. And she's like, "You're going to watch your baby being born." And I was like, "Okay." And, like, literally the second time I pushed, like, he just came out and, like, she put him right on my chest, umbilical cord and everything and she did wait to clamp down with the cord.
Desire (17:41): The nurses were amazing. Alexis, my last nurse, was the best. Because other nurses kept coming in and they were like, "You sure don't want any pain medication?"
Lisa (17:51): Yeah, that can be kind of annoying sometimes. How the frequency of offering that...
Desire (17:55): Yeah. And then Alexis would look at me and she's like, "You don't need it." She's like, "You've gone through, like, crazy contractions, and you don't need it." She's like, "You're going to deliver your baby the way you want to deliver your baby."
Lisa (18:07): I love that. So empowering. I love that kind of language.
Desire (18:11): She was great. She was fantastic. I was so thankful when she, when they switched to her, I was like, I didn't know her and she was quiet at first, but she was amazing. Really amazing.
Lisa (18:23): Good.
Desire (18:25): And I got lucky and I got put in a private room because Forest Hills Hospital has private rooms, but they're first-come first-serve.
Lisa (18:33): And do you have to pay for the...you don't? Oh, that's good to know. I wasn't aware of that. Good.
Desire (18:39): And so they did take him, and the only thing is you're not allowed in the nursery, so we didn't get to see his first bath, his first sponge bath. But they did bring him into the room, like, maybe an hour after, because they had to monitor his heart because of my condition. There was a small chance that he could have a heart problem. During my pregnancy I was monitored a lot for that specific thing. It's, like, an electric node or something in their hearts, but everything was good and he was a pretty chill baby from the start. Wasn't very whiny or anything. Around, like, I want to say, like, seven o'clock the lactation nurse came in to show me how to breastfeed him and the first thing she said was, "Oh, you have a bad nipple." I was like, "I don't know what that means." And she's like, "You're going to need a nipple shield." I was like, "I don't know what that is." And she showed it to me. She said, "Oh, just put this on your nipple and you let him suck on it. And then he should start suckling." And I was like, "Okay, is he going to have to use this forever?" And she's like, "No, once he gets used to, like, the rhythm of it, you can just stop using it." And I was like, "Okay."
Desire (19:57): So it was really rough at the beginning and I think a lot had to do with pressure from, like, my mom. Like, "Why isn't your milk in? Why isn't your milk in?" And I was like, "Do you remember when we were born? Like, it didn't come in right away." And, like, the first thing she asked the nurse, like, "When does her milk gonna come in?"
Desire (20:18): And the nurse was like, "It could take days." She's like, "For now she has colostrum, and, you know, it's gonna take a minute and he doesn't need to eat a lot." I wasn't producing a lot or—I don't know what it was, but he was, like, hungry, hungry, hungry, hungry. And she was like, "Well, you can supplement with formula." And I was not crazy about the whole formula thing. Because I was like, "Oh, his stomach is going to expand. And, like, maybe he's gonna, like, it's going, it's going to be bad." Because my mom's like, "Don't give him formula. It has to be all—breast is best." And I was like, "Okay, well, we'll see." So I was breastfeeding for the most part. And then if he was still screaming because he was hungry, we would give him a tiny bit of formula. But he definitely destroyed my right nipple. And at that point, because he was born on a Friday, there was no lactation nurse on a Saturday and Sunday. So it was kind of just, like, me and my mom, and some of the other nurses. Go ahead.
Lisa (21:17): Well I was just going to ask you, before you talk about this other nurse—how do you think the nurse or lactation consultant could have—was it a nurse or lactation consultant or both—who said you have a bad nipple, I mean?
Desire (21:34): Both.
Lisa (21:34): Yeah. Do you have any ideas on how she could have worded that in a more helpful, encouraging way? Because that just definitely didn't strike me well, and it seemed like it didn't strike you in a helpful way.
Desire (21:50): Yeah. I mean she could have said like, "You know, there are some difficult—there's going to be some difficulty with breastfeeding on this breast, and maybe we should try on the other breast first." Like giving me options instead of saying "Try this thing." Yeah. If she would have said something like that, or given me more instruction on how to use the breast shield, I think it would have been more helpful, because at that point I think my mom was like, "Oh then how are you going to breastfeed him?" And she got, like, all panicky, and then I got all panicky because I was like, "Oh my God, I'm not going to be able to breastfeed." And that's the thing that I wanted to do and now I'm not going to be able do it." So that was, like, in the morning. In the afternoon there was a nurse shift change and—what was her name? It was something real pretty. But she came in and I had the brush field, she's like, "You don't need that!"
Lisa (22:43): Isn't it amazing the different kinds of pieces of advice you can get from one staff member to another?
Desire (22:49): And I was like, "Yeah, but he won't latch on." She's like, "I'm gonna show you a trick. It's probably not the best trick. But it works." She brought in some sugar. And she, like, took it and put some water in it, and she put it on my nipple. She puts sugar with, like, water on my nipple and she's, like, "Try now." And he just went right on my nipple. She's like, "Breast milk is sweet, so they like the sweetness, and that might help." So that helped for a little. But, like, he still wasn't, like, suckling the right way. So he kept going to the other breast because that's the one where I guess he was latching on better, and so he was getting what he wanted. And that was the only thing that I had, like, I was, like, iffy about because I was like, I feel like there should be somebody on staff, like, all the time.
Lisa (23:37): Yeah, an IBCLC, too. Like the top clinical expert. Every hospital should have that. Yeah. And they just don't, so many of them don't. Most of them don't.
Desire (23:46): And I mean for this hospital they encourage just breastfeeding. Like they have all these things, like, "Breast is best," like, we have, "We encourage skin to skin." And I was like, so if you're going to say that and advertise that, then, like, do that.
Lisa (23:59): Support people in this because we've never done it before. So many of us have not done it before. And we could use some specific expert guidance and empowering language too, you know.
Desire (24:11): And so we came home, and I definitely had the blues for, I want to say, two weeks. I think it had a lot to do with the breastfeeding, because I felt like I wasn't doing right by the baby. And I wasn't sure if he was eating, and I didn't want to supplement with formula, but I had the formula just in case. So we were doing a little bit, because I was like, I was scared. And that's when I reached out to you and I was like, "You know what? I'm just gonna get the lactation consultant in here." And that happened within, like, a week. And so she came in and she was fantastic. She was so great. So Emma came and my mom was here, and so was David because David actually was helping me with latching Benjamin on. Like, he would hold my breast and, like, put it in his mouth.
Lisa (25:03): Oh, go Dave! That's so great.
Desire (25:06): He was super helpful, super, super helpful. And so Emma came and she weighed the baby beforehand because she's like, "I want you to know that your baby is eating." And so she watched me breastfeed him and then she weighed him afterwards and he was taking in about two-and-a-half ounces at that point. And that was at, like, two weeks old. So that was a lot for a two-week-old and I think it had to do a lot with, like, the formula and his stomach kind of expanding. But he was taking in a little bit more. She's, like, "That's a lot for two, like, a two-week-old." She was like, "But that's what he eats. So that's what you have to give him." And at that point I wasn't pumping because I didn't—one, I didn't have a pump; two, I just didn't know if it was appropriate to pump. Like I wasn't sure and I didn't want to cause nipple damage by trying too hard. So she did say that I could pump a little bit, but to not go crazy because it wasn't necessary—he didn't need to eat that much—unless I was trying to build a stash. Which I was trying to build. So she said that at three weeks I could start building my stash. And once I started pumping, like, the milk didn't stop coming. I have over 300 ounces frozen.
Lisa (26:24): Wow.
Desire (26:26): I'm only pumping twice a day. So it's a lot.
Lisa (26:30): You may already know about this, but in case you don't: in case you can't use all of that at any point and you want to donate it, there are milk banks that will take it, or there are parents who are looking for donor milk, so I'm happy to connect you to those networks if you ever are like, "Yeah, I don't need all this." But you may, you may use it all. I just always like to mention it because it's a lesser known kind of resource.
Desire (26:56): My freezer is just breast milk at this point.
Lisa (26:59): It's all packed full.
Desire (26:59): It's packed full. There's some at my sister-in-law's, there's some at my mom's at this point.
Lisa (27:09): You're going to, like, invest in a deep freezer.
Desire (27:14): But, I mean, now it's much better. And knowing that I can feed my baby, and that if I had to go for a procedure, or I couldn't breastfeed him, that he's able to eat. So it's very empowering to see that stash. I'm just like, "Yeah, I'm the bomb!" And yeah, no it's been, it's been great. Once I, like, the third week was I think when everything just, like, clicked, and I was, like, "I can do this by myself." Like, it's hard and it's a full-time job. Being at home with a newborn is a full-time job.
Lisa (27:47): Over—more than a full time job. Like a 24-7 full-time job. Yeah.
Desire (27:54): He will take the bottle at night so that David has some time to, like, bond and feed with him. But if Dave's not fast enough, like, he'll start screaming because he's hungry. A very demanding boss. So I'll have to breastfeed him anyways. I do have to get up when he feeds him with the bottle because I'm engorged and I have to release that pressure. So I'm up anyways. But he's sleeping now, which is great. I think the most he's slept is, like, eight hours in one stretch.
Lisa (28:27): That's long for as young as he is.
Desire (28:29): But mostly it's, like, four or five hours and then his little catnaps. He's way more awake now. Like way more awake.
Lisa (28:42): And alert. Starting to kind of—yeah, this first three months usually-ish are, like, not very interactive, and now they start to mature so quickly and get interactive and it gets to be really exciting because you can...there's more engagement there.
Desire (28:59): At first it was very daunting because he would cry and we didn't know what he wanted. And then I downloaded that book, the Dr. Karp book, "The Happiest Baby [on the Block]."
Lisa (29:10): Yes.
Desire (29:10): And that was a godsend. All those little tactics just work. They just work.
Lisa (29:15): Right? The five S's and all that. Yeah.
Desire (29:17): The one that— you know, I was struggling with was the use of the pacifier, because my mother was, like, really adamant about not using a pacifier. But I caved. And we only use it for him to sleep. So he knows, like, if, or, like, if he's, like, really, like, screaming, like, we'll give him the pacifier and then he'll soothe himself. And then he just, like, takes it out, and he's just like, "All right, I'm good. I'm done." Even, like, falling asleep. Like he'll put it—we'll put it in to fall asleep and once he, like, soothes himself, he just takes it right out.
Lisa (29:55): Yeah. These things are, like, use as, you know, if needed, to the minimal amount. Yeah. But that's great. You're doing what works for your baby.
Desire (30:04): For sure.
Lisa (30:05): With, hopefully, little judgment from your mom or people around you.
Desire (30:09): I think that's what I've experienced the most. Like, this judgment from other moms—not newer moms, but, like, older moms. Like, "You're doing something wrong." Or "Don't hold him that way." Or "You're pushing him too much." And I'm like, "I'm not pushing him." Like the whole tummy time thing. Like from the start he wanted to, like, push up and so I was like, "He's gonna need to do this, and if we don't, like, help him then—I don't know, we got to help him." So I started doing tummy time with him, like, maybe a week in, and he just, like, pushes himself up now.
Lisa (30:50): That's great.
Desire (30:51): But there was, like, a lot of judgment on that.
Lisa (30:55): Huh, that's a new one. I hadn't heard any judgment on tummy time because we know that that's good for babies.
Desire (31:01): I don't know, maybe it's a cultural thing. Like my mom said she never did any of those things with us.
Lisa (31:06): Right.
Desire (31:06): So I asked her, and I was like, "So what would you do with us?" And she's like, "Well, you know, we would just put you on the bed. And if you weren't on the bed you were in the bassinet. And you would sleep a lot." And I was like, "Okay." And she's like, you know, "Well, we talked to you. But we didn't have all these, like, toys or...
Lisa (31:26): Well, so here's a question. When her babies—when you and your siblings were babies was—I know you said you're 34. I'm just trying to think back. The "Back to Sleep" campaign, like, babies needing to sleep on their backs wasn't always a thing, or it wasn't always a recommendation. And that's what necessitated tummy time, because babies are missing getting that benefit of being on the bellies in the first few months. So I wonder if that's where it comes from, some, is just that if, if she even just grew up in a time where we weren't being told to put babies on their backs to sleep, then we wouldn't have needed to be told to also put them on their tummies, you know?
Desire (32:07): Yeah. I mean at one point she's like, "Just put him on his side." And I was like, "To sleep?" And she's like, "Just put him on his side and he'll be fine." I was like, "They said not to ever put him on his side," and she's like, "Yeah, put him on—you were on your side." I was like, "...And I didn't die." And she goes, "And you didn't die, so you're fine." I was like, "Oh, I don't know how I feel about that." SIDS is more common in Hispanic babies. I was like, "I don't, I don't know." And she's like, "No, put him on his side." And I was like, "No, not if I'm not watching him." So I would just, like, stare at him if he was on his side, but he was happy on his side.
Lisa (32:45): Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's great. It sounds like you're doing—you're casting off that judgment and just doing what's right for your baby and your family. As it should be, I think. There's just way too much judgment out there. That's unfortunate. Why can't we lift each other up and keep in mind, like, there's almost no one right way to do most things with parenting. You know?
Desire (33:11): It's like a new adventure every day. Something new happens. Like yesterday, he wasn't taking to the Dr. Brown's bottles anymore. And he'd been on those bottles since, you know, pretty much a week after he was born. And he just didn't want it. He didn't want it. He was screaming. So we had to go get another bottle that had a different nipple. And that was, that's what worked. And he was fine. I was like, "Uuhhf."
Lisa (33:37): So many mysteries that we have to solve as parents, right?
Desire (33:42): We're detectives, I think.
Lisa (33:42): Detectives. Absolutely. Totally. And it does get—the pace of those mysteries does slow down as babies mature, I think, which is helpful to keep in mind—that it's temporary. Because in these first few months, oh my goodness, the development is so rapid that it's just constant, like, "Oh my gosh, here's the new mystery for today."
Desire (34:05): Yes, definitely. And another thing that I've experienced as a new parent is just, like, taking him out—in my culture, we reserve the first 40 days to not do anything. For the first 40 days only, like, warm fluids, plain foods. And we're not supposed to go out, but because I'm—I suffer from anxiety. I was like, "I need to get out of the house."
Lisa (34:34): Sure.
Desire (34:35): I need to get out of the house. So we would go on small walks. Yeah, we would go on small walks with the baby. But the first time I did take him to, like, a mall was, like, traumatizing for me. I fed him before I left and I wasn't expecting—and changed him—I was like, "All right, so he'll be fine for the first couple of hours that we're there." But eventually he did get hungry and I did have to change him. And those changing rooms were the most disgusting things I've ever seen in my life. Like they just weren't kept up. The changing tables are, like, gross. I mean the regular bathroom was cleaner than the family bathroom. So that was disheartening because I was like, "These are little tiny babies. Like they should at least keep these rooms clean, instead of like—you know, I mean all the bathrooms should be clean, but this should be a cleaner bathroom." And there were no nursing rooms or nothing like that. And my mom was like, "Just plop somewhere and just breastfeed him." She's like, "He's hungry." So that's what we did in the middle of JC Penney's. I was like, "I'll just sit right here and feed the baby." And then somebody came and was like, "You can't do that here."
Lisa (35:44): Oh, yes you can. Oh, no, no.
Desire (35:48): I was like, "All right, can I use the dressing room?" And she's like, "Yes, you can go in the dressing room." So I went into the dressing room and I breastfed him there.
Lisa (35:59): Women get this too much, being told you can't do this. And it is absolutely, totally legal to breastfeed wherever you please.
Desire (36:07): So that was a little shocking at first. Target—yesterday, we were at Target—that was a much safer place to be with the baby. It was way cleaner. They do have a nursing room there, but at the time it was occupied and...
Lisa (36:23): Was this the College Point one, or the Rego Park?
Desire (36:26): The Rego Park one.
Lisa (36:26): Okay.
Desire (36:27): So the guy that was tending to the dressing room, he was like, "Do you want to just use the disabled person's room?" He's like, "That's a much bigger room. You could put the stroller in there. And you don't have to try anything on." He's like, "You should be able to breastfeed your baby." I was like, "Wha? Where am I?"
Lisa (36:46): Yay! That's the right kind of response.
Desire (36:49): Yeah. And, like, he checked in on me, he's like, "Are you okay?" I'm like, "Oh, he feeds for, like, a long time." He's like, "Okay." But very nice. I've had some positive experiences and some not so positive ones, but that first one I was like, "Oh my God. I'm never leaving the house with the baby unless we're going to the park." Like this was, it was, like, gross. Like I couldn't believe it.
Desire (37:13): And the other thing that I wasn't, that was kind of skeevy about it—it was the Queens Center Mall, the family room in the food court. Anybody can go in there. So I was like, "Shouldn't this just be reserved for, like, people with kids?" Like, people that are alone shouldn't be going into those bathrooms. And there were several people that were in there that were just alone. And there was nobody manning that space. I was like, "I think there should be some control on this, because there are little children here.
Lisa (37:46): And when little kids need to pee, they need to pee fast. They can't wait.
Desire (37:50): The placement of the changing tables at Queens Center Mall, like, in the regular bathrooms, to me just creeps me out. Like on the second floor, it's in between both bathrooms and it's exposed to everybody. So I was like, "How is this even safe?" Like, they're not in the actual restrooms. Like, it's in the middle of both restrooms. Like, I dunno. And my mom's like, "Well, we'll just learn to change him in the carriage, like, in his stroller." And I was like, "Well what about the car seat? Like, I can't change him in the car seat." And she's like, "That's true." So, like, there needs to be some sort of change where we can safely change our babies and feed our babies without people, like, ogling at you. Like, it was weird.
Lisa (38:36): Yeah. And I know you and I discussed this a little bit before I hit record, but I just want to, for the benefit of the listeners, I want everybody to know about—there's a campaign called UP-STAND Campaign. A friend, a local Astoria mom, started a campaign to lobby for changes for the better in public places on the trains and in malls and you know, stores everywhere, restaurants, to just improve things. Because we as a country are not doing a good job at that. In so many other countries—I actually was just up in Canada taking pictures on the train of these little diagrams saying there's a whole reserved space on each subway car for expectant people and people with mobility challenges or injuries. So check out the UP-STAND Campaign by my friend Christine. And also, as you're becoming an expectant parent, if you're aiming to breastfeed, to really learn your rights, to know that in any state in our country, it is legal to breastfeed in public. Now those regulations vary a little bit from state to state. In New York we can breastfeed covered or uncovered in public, you know, because it's actually legal for men and women to be topless in New York. So we are freer in that way. Although, like you're saying, not everybody knows those regulations. But it's good for us to know them so we can say, "No, I actually legally know that I have the right to be here. Thank you very much. Go away." Maybe squirt 'em with your breastmilk.
Desire (39:58): [inaudible]
Lisa (39:58): Oh my goodness. Well, anything else you want to share before I—I'm going to ask you one last question, but I wanted to just see if you have other things you want to share.
Desire (40:13): I think what I've learned the most... So, like, I kind of reflect—when he's, like, asleep and he's, like, peaceful and he's not screaming—about the whole experience. Especially for myself, since I suffer from anxiety, having a support system was really helpful, and telling people like, "Hey, I've hit my limit. Like, I can't do this. Like, somebody needs to come in and help me." [That's] super helpful.
Lisa (40:40): Yes.
Desire (40:40): I think a lot of the times you're told, like, "You can do this," like, "We're meant to do this and this is just part of it." But if you're at a point where it's too much, like, you have to tell somebody. Like, I remember he was crying and crying and crying and crying and I couldn't console him, like, nothing could console him, and it had been hours, and I was by myself. And as soon as David came in, I was like, "You need to take him. You need to take him because I don't feel safe myself. Like you need to take him." And so he did. And it's also really important, what I've learned, to check in with your partner—like, how they're doing, like, how their mental space is.
Lisa (41:25): Yes.
Desire (41:26): Because it's rough. Like, Dave had it rough, like, he had to deal with my crazy and then had to help with a new baby that he didn't know how to, you know— it was new to both of us. It is still new to both of us. We're learning every day. We try to at least check in once a day like, "Hey, how are you? How are you doing? Like, how are you up here? And how are you in here?" So that if it gets rough, like, we can call somebody. Like, my sister will come or his sister will come or somebody will come and give us a break.
Lisa (41:59): And for people in a podcast who might be just only hearing that, she pointed to "how are you in here in the head" and "how are you here in the heart" as well? Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's such great wisdom. Thank you for sharing that. Yes, speak up when—just to reiterate, speak up when you need help. Build in a support network for yourself. Yeah. And then check in with each other as a couple. Be sure that it's a two way street, being sure that you're both doing okay in this huge life transition.
Desire (42:27): Yeah.
Lisa (42:27): Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great wisdom. I said I have one more question, but that was—you actually just, I think you filled in that. You answered it already. Because I was going to ask you, do you have any final pieces of wisdom or insights for expectant parents, but that was, like, three all-in-one and that was amazing.
Desire (42:46): They change so much. Like, their face, everything changes. Every day they're different. So I try to, like, when he goes to sleep, I'm like, "You'll be different tomorrow."
Lisa (42:57): Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's sort of this simultaneous, this ironic thing of, like, part of you, at times at least, wants to be done with this phase of life. And then other times you're like, "Oh, cherish it." Because they're only tiny once, and they're so adorable. And you know, before you know it, Benny's going to be 14, like my son is, and you're like, "What? Where did the time go?"
Desire (43:21): I know. I know.
Lisa (43:25): Well, Desire, thank you so much for talking with me and sharing your great story. It's been lovely talking with you. I hope you'll stay in touch. I hope to see you at a future reunion. Have a wonderful day.
Desire (43:37): Thank you, Lisa. I really appreciate it.
Lisa (43:39): Bye. Bye.
Lisa (43:40): So there’s Desire’s beautiful birth story. Before we wrap things up, I’ll talk briefly about two things: the 5 S’s comforting techniques and breastfeeding rights. Desi talked about the Happiest Baby on the Block comforting techniques called the 5 S’s. We go through this in more detail in birth class, but I’ll give you some high-level information today. The 5 S’s are an incredible way to gentle the otherwise harsh transition from the womb into the world. They’re ways to replicate some of the environment of the womb that a newborn is so accustomed to and to more gradually wean them off over the first 3 months of life, or what we call the “Fourth Trimester”. Or to put it more simply, the 5 S’s are ways to help a baby cry less because of the overwhelm or overstimulation they might be experiencing. Whenever baby’s crying, you always want to be sure first that their basic needs have been met -- they’ve been fed, their diaper has been changed, and there’s no obvious source of physical discomfort. Then if they’re crying for another, unknown reason, they might just need some help to be soothed and settled, and to go to sleep. Keep in mind that newborns need to sleep around 16 hours a day at first, but they often need help to do that. An overtired baby will be a baby who's overstimulated and overwhelmed and will cry more and more.
Lisa (46:10): Personally, I recommend grabbing the Happiest Baby on the Block video rather than--or in addition to--the book, because these are very tactile comforting techniques, and many parents find it’s more helpful to watch the 5 S’s in action than to read words on a page. Keep in mind you’re only using these techniques as much or as little as your baby is needing them. For example, you definitely don’t keep your baby swaddled all day long. Always unswaddle them any time they awake and they're content and absolutely every time you are about to breastfeed them. Over the first 3 months or so, you’ll find that your baby gradually needs the 5 S’s less and less and you can gradually taper off using them.
Lisa (46:46): Based on Desi’s experience being told she couldn’t breastfeed in a department store, I wanted to mention a bit on breastfeeding rights. It’s important to know that you have the right to breastfeed anywhere, anytime in all 50 United States. The New York Breastfeeding Mothers’ Bill of Rights says: “You have the right to breastfeed your baby in any location, public or private, where you are otherwise authorized to be.” In New York, because it’s legal to be topless in public, you have the right to breastfeed covered or uncovered. I just want to say that we have oversexualized breasts in our U.S. culture for way too long, and things need to change! We’ve made baby steps but we have a long way to go. I always suggest that, if someone tells you to go breastfeed in a bathroom, which happens to a lot of people, just squirt ‘em with your other boob! Or tell them, “No, thanks. Would you, like, to eat your lunch in the bathroom?!” So that you can feel more confident as you eventually breastfeed your baby in public places and may need to pump or feed at work, I’ll link to some resources about your breastfeeding rights both in NY and in other states in the show notes for this episode over at birthmattersshow.com Okay, here’s a sneak peek of what’s up next week!
Speaker 3 (46:52): And then my husband had to get up because he was picking up his friend at the airport who was visiting from Japan, who was going to spend the night with us. So he went to get him, and then I got up after he left, again, I'm like, "I might as well get up and get going." And I went to the bathroom and then my water broke. So I wanted pancakes. I was like, "I want a real breakfast before we go anywhere. I'm making pancakes." So I'm in the kitchen, I'm making chocolate chip pancakes, and then the contractions started around, like, eight o'clock. I'm like, "Okay. All right. I can handle these." A little intense for the minute or so, maybe 45 seconds at first, but I kept going, powered through. My husband came home with his friend from the airport, and I was like, "Well, we're having a baby today, so he can eat breakfast with us, but then we're going to have to find some other plans for him for tonight."
Lisa (47:40): See you next week and remember to cast off judgment in your birth and parenting choices. Trust your instinct and do what's best for you, your baby, and your family.---END---
