Today Kate & AJ, the dear friends whom Dee & Sam mentioned meeting in birth class in the past couple of episodes, share their 2nd daughter’s birth story. Following a challenging first birth, Kate shares the specific ways that her 2nd pregnancy and birth was very healing. As Kate has a bit of a long, confusing early labor, they share details of a visit to both Trader Joe’s and to a chapel near their hospital, as well as multiple modes of transport including an Uber Pool, a ferry, another Uber, and a couple of subway rides. They also share the ways they received more optimal support this time around, including from not only the hospital staff, but also their doula, toward the uncomplicated, unmedicated vaginal birth Kate had hoped for. Hold on to the end to hear a few great tips they have for expectant parents regarding building in support, staying flexible, and equipping yourself with information during pregnancy.
Episode Topics:
Days-long early labor, despite it being a 2nd labor
Taking an Uber pool to OB appointment, labor strengthens
OB tells them to hang around hospital
AJ goes home on subway to grab bag, Kate goes to Trader Joe's and then chapel
They meet at chapel, go for dinner, take a ferry ride back to Astoria, sleep at home for just an hour or so
Doula advises them to head to hospital, they arrive just before water breaks
Pushing stage starts soon thereafter, baby born very quickly. Kate pushes on her back at the request of the OB despite preferring all fours
Cord avulsion prevents their desire for delayed cord clamping, cord also wrapped around baby's neck once
Delaying other newborn protocols
AJ's reflections and words of advice on accepting support and leaning on community as you become parents
Kate describes and contrasts breastfeeding her first vs her second
How the 2nd birth was healing from a more challenging first birth, how the first birth informed her choices and approaches for the second
Kate's tips on equipping yourself with information in pregnancy
Resources:
Supporting Her online class for partners
Grace Veras Sealy (NYC doula)
Listening to Mothers survey
NYC Standards for Respectful Care at Birth (what Kate saw posted at NYU hospital)
*Disclosure: Links to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Transcript:
Lisa: (00:00)
You‘re listening to the Birth Matters Podcast, Episode 23.
Kate: (00:03)
I had always joked with AJ, I was like, "In my most ideal birth story I was going to, like, go into gentle labor, walk to the ferry on the Astoria side, get on the ferry, take a nice calm ferry ride, labor on the ferry, walk another two blocks to NYU, walk into those doors and, like, have the baby." That was like, I was like, "I don't even, I don't even want to be, like, in triage or on, like, the eighth floor. I just want to, like, walk into the hospital and have the baby."
AJ: (00:31)
Assuming we didn't have the baby on the ferry.
Kate: (00:31)
That would have been okay, too. I totally would have been ok with having it on the ferry.
Lisa: (00:48)
Hey, there, and welcome to the Birth Matters Show. I'm your host, Lisa Greaves Taylor, founder of Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education and Labor Support. This show is here to lessen your overwhelm on the journey into parenthood by equipping and encouraging you with current best evidence info and soulful interviews with parents and birth pros. Please keep in mind the information on this show is not intended as medical advice or to diagnose or treat any medical conditions. If you enjoy this show, we'd be incredibly grateful if you'd share it with a friend. You can follow and share our posts on social media @birthmattersnyc or simply tell them to search for Birth Matters wherever they listen to podcasts.
Lisa: (01:30)
Today Kate & AJ, the dear friends whom Dee & Sam mentioned meeting in birth class in the past couple of episodes, share their 2nd daughter’s birth story. Following a challenging first birth, Kate shares the specific ways that her 2nd pregnancy and birth was very healing. As Kate has a bit of a long, confusing early labor, they share details of a visit to both Trader Joe’s and to a chapel near their hospital, as well as multiple modes of transport including an Uber Pool, a ferry, another Uber, and a couple of subway rides. They also share the ways they received more optimal support this time around, including from not only the hospital staff, but also their doula, toward the uncomplicated, unmedicated vaginal birth Kate had hoped for. Hold on to the end to hear a few great tips they have for expectant parents regarding building in support, staying flexible, and equipping yourself with information during pregnancy. Speaking of equipping yourself with information and support, this episode is brought to you by an online course called SupportingHer. For couples who decide it's preferred for their spouse or partner to provide active support for the laboring person, those partners have a vital role to play toward a great birth. Created by expert birth educator and doula (and my friend) Alice Turner, SupportingHer is an easily consumable online class that teaches tips, techniques and actionable skills to help you take care of your partner and yourself during labor and birth. You’ll learn how to define your role in labor, communicate with hospital staff, provide physical and verbal support and deal with any curve balls. SupportingHer is an easy way to learn all you need to know, at your own pace, in less than two hours from your computer or phone. I like to point out the fun fact that this class was recorded in a brewery, which helps it feel more like a relaxed conversation with a friend. To grab this course for only $49 and start building partner’s confidence today or to learn more, visit birthmattersnyc.com/links and click the button for the SupportingHer online course. You can also find a link in the show notes for this episode. Alrighty, let's jump in.
Lisa: (03:41)
Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today. I have Kate and AJ with me, former students of mine,. Welcome, you guys. So glad to have you here.
AJ: (03:51)
Hey, Lisa. Happy to be here.
Kate: (03:51)
Happy to be here.
Lisa: (03:52)
So would you like to first, just kind of share what you do for a living?
Kate: (03:56)
Yeah, sure. So I am a physical therapist at NYU Langone's Medical Center, and I've been a therapist for about 10 years at the same place in adult outpatient orthopedics.
AJ: (04:10)
I am an actor here in New York and a full-time husband and father of two.
Lisa: (04:18)
And AJ may have to duck out for an audition for a TV show before long.
AJ: (04:23)
Everybody out there cross your fingers for us.
Lisa: (04:25)
Yes, yes, yes. And I just want to mention that while they were taking my class, I somehow realized, I think I was doing some editing on a TV show that my son had done for his reel and I came across AJ's name right next to our son's name in the credits and I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's my student." They're in the same episode. It was Royal Pains.
AJ: (04:50)
Lucky for me that I could be associated with a great actor, like, your son.
Lisa: (04:54)
Yeah, the feeling is likewise, for sure. That's just one of those fun "small world" kind of things in New York where there are so many people. But then, like, it really is a small world. All right, and where are you guys in your parenting journey? You have two, right?
Kate: (05:10)
Yes. So we have Daphne, she is three months old, and Penelope is two-and-a-half years old. Yeah. We are just loving life, hanging out in Astoria, trying to keep these girls happy,
AJ: (05:28)
A little bit tired, but we're making our way.
Kate: (05:31)
Obviously, people can't see us right now, but I have Daphne with me right now. So she may make some coos and cries here and there. But that's...
AJ: (05:38)
And who knows, if Penelope decides she doesn't want to take a nap, she might join us in a moment. too.
Lisa: (05:44)
Absolutely. The more the merrier. That's great. Wonderful. Well you're going to mostly share your second born's birth story today. Daphne's, right? Feel free to jump right in.
Kate: (05:56)
Okay. Yeah. Where to begin, right, because I feel like, you know, you think just start, like, at the beginning of labor. But that's one thing that I have had such a hard time in both births, like, deciding: when exactly did labor begin? Because I think for both girls I had, like, a very, very long and, like, a little bit interrupted early labor and so Daphne's I think started actually on Labor Day, which was September 2nd, and that's actually a couple of days before she was arriving.
AJ: (06:32)
She ended up being born on September 5th.
Kate: (06:34)
September 5th very early in the morning. And I say it started on that day because that was, like, the day that I started to, like, notice I was losing my mucus plug. I started to get cramps that I was sure were Braxton-Hicks, but I—got a phone call coming in. Possibly. We have to pause...
AJ: (06:53)
Lisa, just one second.
Kate: (06:57)
Pause for just one second. So sorry. Great. So I think Daphne's birth story began September 2nd, which was Labor Day. So that's kind of memorable for me. And that's kind of when early labor started and I had been, I went out on maternity leave from work, so I'd been working full time and I went on maternity leave about a week before that, which was actually three weeks before Daphne's due date. And I just had so much, like, nesting that I wanted to do and, like, self-care, and working full time and being, like, a mother as well, full time, there's just, like, never time to do a lot of self-care. So I was looking forward to, like, three full weeks of just chilling and kind of getting, getting right in my mind.
But just about one week after I went on maternity leave, I started getting Braxton Hicks, kind of losing my mucous plug. And I thought that was kind of early because Penelope, our first, she actually came kind of right on time. She came the day before her due date. So I was a little bit surprised. And when it all initially started I was like, "Oh, these are just Braxton Hicks, like, no big deal. I'm going to keep going, like, with all my self-care stuff." So I think on Monday the 2nd I actually, like, I went and got a pedicure, you know, because you gave us all these wonderful ideas of things to do, like, just as self-care but also if you were in early labor, like, things to go do. So I went and got a pedicure and I started noticing that anytime I was sitting, my contractions were getting a lot stronger and, like, kind of ramping up. And so I was like, "Oh goodness," like, maybe this could be it, you know, I, like, downloaded the contraction timer.
But then that night when I, like, left the nail salon, I walked home and they kind of fizzled again. So I let AJ know, and we were in touch with our doula and we just were, like, monitoring things. The next day I continued just, like, nesting and self-care stuff and the contractions were really, like, coming and going, like, sometimes they'd be there and be strong and sometimes they'd fizzle. I've since learned from listening to your recent podcast that one of your, one of your podcasters recommended, like, taking a bath and that's the way to know, like, if they really ramp up in the bath, then you know you're in real labor. If they kind of fizzle, then you know it's Braxton Hicks. But I, I didn't know that at the time, so I didn't do that. But I just, like, also wanted to do some more self-care. I went to get my hair cut. As I was sitting getting my hair cut they also got really, really strong again. So I was like, "Oh, goodness, like, maybe I'm going to have to cut this hair cut short." And I was like, they were, like, joking with me there. They're like, "Oh, you're not going to have this baby, like, now are you?" And I was like, "You know what, to be honest, I really have no idea. Like, I mean it's not coming now, but it might come today." So we were just really prepared for, like, the advice that everyone had given us that second babies come really quickly. So I really thought it was going to be, like, the moment I started feeling it, we needed to, like, jump in a cab and be there. But still that day it also kind of fizzled out after.
So just—we'd been in touch with our doula. She's like, "Yeah, just keep touching base with me, keep, you know, timing the contractions if they start to seem regular and strong." And the next day was Wednesday the 4th. And we had an OB appointment scheduled in the city that day and we were getting ready to go. And usually like, I mean, we're all about like, we take the subway, we, like, walk everywhere. We're not, like, super huge on cabs, but we were like, "You know what? Since the contractions have been, like, here and there, maybe we should hop in a cab." And I don't know exactly if by accident or if by AJ not really wanting to take a cab—it's not fair for me to say that because he's not here to defend himself right now—but we got in an UberPool, which if you're not from, if you're not familiar with Uber and car sharing services, you know, anyone else can get in the car and hire the car at the same time if they're going your way.
Kate: (11:04)
So again, as we sat down to go to our OB appointment that was in lower Manhattan, my contractions started getting really strong again. And as we got into the city, my contractions were so strong that, like, AJ I were saying, you know, "Maybe we should call our doula again, and maybe we should just, like, switch this up and go to the hospital instead of going to our OB appointment." Because they were getting, like, super strong to the point where like, I couldn't really talk anymore. And so we called our doula, she said, "You know what, just keep going to the OB appointment and see what they say and you're in the city if you need to go to the hospital. So that's excellent." And I'm going to pause here for just a minute because I think AJ is going to join us again.
AJ: (11:52)
Alright, thanks, guys. Bye.
Lisa: (11:52)
And I just think the UberPool thing is hilarious. The last thing you want in labor is to be with a stranger right next to you in the car.
(12:05)
So if I pick up from the UberPool kind of story, we're in the—yeah, I think we are recording. We're recording. So we're in the UberPool. We're on our way to the OB appointment. We—do you care or do you want us to give names of places? Do you care if we name places?
Lisa: (12:22)
If it's a positive association.
Kate: (12:24)
Yeah, our OB practice was Spring OB-GYN and I'll say just a little bit more about that in a second, but while we're going to the OB appointment, our Pool does get hired again. [phone rings] Are you kidding me?
Kate: (12:40)
Wow. Mr. Popular over here. I'm just kidding.
AJ: (12:46)
Sorry. Sorry, Lisa.
Lisa: (12:46)
You're fine.
(12:48)
Our Uber did get hired again and he actually, like, started rerouting back towards the hospital. And we were like, "Oh, maybe he heard us say something about maybe we should go to the hospital instead of the OB." And then we're like, "Where are you going?" And he's like, "Oh, this isn't your destination. It looks like I might have to pick up another rider." So he picked up another rider and we're, like, in Midtown Manhattan afternoon traffic. It was, it was crazy. It was, like, so awkward for the driver and the other passenger. I'm, like, in the back holding onto the handlebar, just, like, having my contractions. No big deal.
AJ: (13:21)
Yeah, it is odd the number of times we've wound up in a cab with Kate having contractions.
Kate: (13:27)
Yes. Yeah. This, this is time number one, that we're in a cab having contractions.
AJ: (13:33)
Well, technically, right, with the first birth, you know, it's, I guess that's part of part of the—one of the drawbacks of not owning your own car is like, "Oh, we're going to go have a baby. Well let's call the Uber and go to the hospital."
Kate: (13:44)
Let's call someone. Put our life in their hands.
AJ: (13:44)
It's straight out of a movie. But we made it.
Kate: (13:49)
That's one point for having a home birth. Which is awesome, right?
Lisa: (13:52)
Yes, indeed. That was one of my favorite things, was not having to get in a car.
Kate: (14:02)
So, what—oh, so what I was going to say, going back to Spring OB-GYN, we ended up birthing Daphne with Spring OB-GYN and as we'll tell in the story it ended up being wonderful. We had actually started with Dr. Moritz, who was practicing and delivering babies at the Lower Manhattan Hospital because we were really interested in having a birth center experience. I'm a little more, like, I'm interested in home birth. I like that kind of stuff. AJ is a little more, like, comfortable with the whole hospital experience and we really felt that the birth center was, like, the perfect melding of those two. And we had, had, we had tried to have our first baby Penelope in the Mount Sinai Birth Center. However, like, the evening that we went into labor for her, their center was either full or closed. And so it didn't actually work out. So we were like, "You know what? Let's give another hospital a try and try to use the birth center there." So we were with Dr. Moritz, and he actually had some stuff happen in which he separated from working at Lower Manhattan Hospital right around, like, maybe we were three months, three or four months...it was very early. First trimester. He helped us get connected with some other people.
Kate: (15:21)
So we decided to go with Spring OB-GYN. And at Spring you rotate through different practitioners and we rotated maybe through five or six practitioners. And we had been kind of telling what we were hoping—a really, like, physiologic birth, a very natural birth, you know, no interventions unless absolutely necessary. I wanted to labor at home until it was, like, time to pop that baby out. I wanted to walk through the hospital doors and pop the baby out. And there was only one practitioner there that had told us, "You know what? I don't think you're quite looking for, like, the experience that you're going to get at NYU." And she actually had us thinking about—she was like, "Why not try a birth center?" And we were like, "Oh, okay, here's the story. We wanted a birth center to begin with, yada yada." She was kind of suggesting the birth center, the freestanding birth center in Brooklyn.
AJ: (16:13)
And while we appreciated her honesty about like, you know, maybe that maybe she, she was sort of foreseeing that maybe it wasn't going to be the experience we exactly had in mind...
Kate: (16:25)
Yeah.
AJ: (16:25)
It was interesting that, like, the four or five other practitioners—that when we expressed these thoughts to them, they, they were all like, "Oh yeah, totally. Yeah, we understand." But yeah, I think we were, it was more of, like, a, like, a, almost, like, a courtesy of like, "Hey, this is what we want, just so you guys know. Everybody else told us it's fine and it would, it would probably happen this way." And she was like, "Oh, I don't, I don't know, maybe check your other options." So, I mean, I guess—very much appreciate the honesty, but at the same time I was like, "Oh wow," that was—we were just kind of looking for a pat on the back and to move on, you know?
Kate: (16:57)
And that actually set us kind of in this spiral. So at that point when we had met that practitioner, we were about maybe seven, six or seven months along. Yeah, yeah, for sure, like, probably entering third trimester. And so that kind of set off for us. We were like, "Oh, okay, we need to, like, rethink this." We were, like, looking into midwives. I think I contacted you, I contacted several friends just to be like, "Hey, like, what are our options here? Is it too late for a change?" And we really did a ton of research and were almost transferring to Metropolitan Hospital, which is a city hospital, which as you said, and our doula said and everyone said for the OB wing is just such an incredible gem in the city as a place where women can go and kind of just give birth and not have so much medical intervention if it's not necessary, you know. There are a midwife, a midwife practice runs it there and they're super respectful of how the mother wants to birth. And that was so super important to me. And so we hired—or we spoke to a lot of midwives that worked with them and we were almost dead set on it. And then, you know, life just happened. We were both working a crazy amount of hours. We're parenting our other one and time, just, like, passed me by. And I said, "You know what? To, like, have all of our medical records transferred again to kind of work—insurance is the worst to work with. So to, like, work with insurance again...We decided, you know what, I work for NYU and I'm really familiar with the campus. I really am familiar with, you know, what they want their mission to be. Right?
Kate: (18:37)
And so I figured since I was so comfortable there I thought, "You know what? Let me just kind of have my birth preferences but really make myself on board with, like, whatever happens is okay and if I can get kind of my mind right about it, then however it unfolds is going to be okay."
AJ: (18:59)
I think it also too, like, it just reminded us that you—there's only so many things you can control. You know, it's, like, sort of, like, God and nature are going to happen the way that they do and, like, we can only plan for so much and, like, when we had these discussions about "Maybe we should switch practices or maybe we should switch hospitals. What do we do? What do we do?" we kept coming back to, "Well, there's a possibility that if we just stay on the course we're on, everything goes 100% perfectly.
Kate: (19:27)
Right.
AJ: (19:28)
Like we're just trying to put a contingency plan in place in case a little bit of, like, catastrophe strikes. So it made it, it did make it really difficult to figure out, you know, exactly what to do. But I mean, I think it's all back to your point about—we just had to be okay with like, okay, whatever happens.
Kate: (19:45)
And I don't know if this, I think that you may have mentioned this in your class. We took it before we had Penelope. And so we were kind of flipping back through our notes, but somewhere in my birth prep notes, I had a note to just kind of visualize things happening, you know, visualize it the way you want it, but then also visualize it—maybe, you know, you want a natural unmedicated vaginal delivery, but maybe you have a C-section. So like, visualize what would all of those steps look like, too, so that if something like that happens, you're not in this state of shock and disappointment while it's happening.
Kate: (20:19)
And so I, you know, did some visualization and, and for me really I think what I was kind of set on was I really wanted to birth in the way that, like, felt most comfortable for me because I wasn't planning to use an epidural. And so that meant I wanted to kind of be on all fours because I knew that was my most comfortable position from my first birth. And I wanted to do that, like, if possible up to the point of delivering the baby. And I guess we should kind of—we should kind of jump back into the actual story. Right? So September 4th we are at the OB, Spring OB just getting, like, a 38-week checkup and we go in, I'm, like, pacing the halls. It's a packed practice and I'm asking AJ, you know, "Could you maybe, like, let them know possibly I'm in labor?"
Kate: (21:10)
So then we were seen fairly quickly and she's like, "You know what? I'm just going to go ahead and check you." Which I had been deferring checks before. I didn't really want to be checked just in case that would, like, speed up labor. So I'd been deferring checks before, but now because we were like, "You know what? We need to know, like, do we need to go towards the hospital or do we need to go back home, right?" So I let her check me. and she said at that point I was, what, four centimeters dilated and 60% effaced. And so for us, we're like, "Oh, we've got days," because for our daughter Penelope, we, when we arrived at the hospital at the Mount Sinai Birthing Center I was 10 centimeters and fully effaced.
AJ: (21:52)
It was go time.
Kate: (21:52)
So, like, that is how I expected, like, "Oh, that's when you go to the hospital." But she was like, "No, no, no. You know, like, this is a second birth, like, as soon as that water breaks you might be delivering." So she was like, "It's coming up on rush hour in New York City, so I would just go towards the NYU campus, the NYU Hospital campus and hang out there, and just see how things progress rather than coming back home to Astoria and potentially having to fight rush hour traffic back into the city."
AJ: (22:21)
And you know how, like, as you're, as you're, like, about to have this child, you know, and you kind of are having trouble, like, seeing the forest for the trees, you know, like it was so nice to have a doctor that was like, "Here's my advice: don't go home, stay close to the hospital, go get a bite to eat, walk around." And it was just like, "Oh, okay. Those are concrete things that we can do and we can just stop worrying about—what do we do? What do we do? What do we do?" It's like, well, the doctor said we should do this. So I guess that's what we'll do.
Kate: (22:49)
Yeah. In that, I agree with that. For that situation. It was very, this is what the doctor said we should do. We should do that. I agree with that for that situation. But I also think there are some situations when you should maybe ask more questions if the doctor says, "Okay, let's do this." But I think that was also something that was super helpful for having our doula this time around. So the first time around with the first baby, the doula is doing so much, like, hands-on and helping you with comfort measures and all of that stuff. Our doula—who, by the way, was amazing. Her name is Grace and you recommended her to us. Grace Veras Sealy. And she was so good for, like, the four days preceding Daphne's birth to just, like, be on call on the phone and we would say like, "This is what's happening. What do you think we should do?" And I think she also gave us just a huge relief of, you know, instead of having to, like, stress about, "Oh, is this it or is it not?," like, in retrospect, we know it was it now, but, like, in the moment I'm thinking, like, her due date isn't for two more weeks. So maybe this isn't it. You know, but both she and the doctor were really helpful in letting us know kind of where geographically we should be, and where, where we might be as the pregnancy was progressing.
AJ: (24:07)
Yeah.
Kate: (24:07)
So at that point we left Spring OB-GYN. We didn't have our bags, so we decided AJ would go back to Astoria, I'd grab our bags, I would kind of mosey towards the NYU Hospital campus and we were, like, in the meantime, kind of coordinating care with a sitter to pick up our two-year-old who was at daycare, and something else that we found really comical, even in the moment—once we knew, we knew this was sort of happening, we were like, "This is just crazy." But we didn't want to get back in a cab because it was starting to come up to rush hour, and not even in rush hour we had spent so much time in that cab getting to the OB appointment, and sitting was super uncomfortable for me because I was having so many contractions.
AJ: (24:52)
So what did we do?
Kate: (24:53)
So we got on the subway, like two New Yorkers.
AJ: (24:59)
And it was like, "Please God, do not get delayed. Do not have signal malfunctions."
Kate: (25:02)
And you know, it was so funny. We ended up, we were standing—because I didn't want to sit. And of course I'm, like, this, you know, nine-months-pregnant woman. So everyone's offering me their seat and I'm just like, "No, I can't sit," in between some gentle contractions, but I think we must have been standing in front of some NYU Labor and Delivery nurses that were, like, on lunch or maybe coming into a shift, because as I got off the subway on 33rd street, they were coming off right behind me and they were like, "Hey, do you need a hand? Like, do you need help? We kind of, we kind of know what's going on." But I was like, "No, I'm totally fine." So I slowly made my way towards NYU. AJ went to Astoria, grabbed our bags.
Kate: (25:41)
I put this in my journal entry. It's a silly, like, detail, but you also, like, Lisa, encouraged us to kind of make to-do lists and these lists of, like, things that we wanted to do before we went to the hospital, and self -care measures. And I had almost every one of them crossed off my list except for picking up snacks as a thank you for the labor and delivery and the mother-baby unit nurses. So since I know the area, and I'm going to walk right by a Trader Joe's, I decided to just pop in and grab some snacks for them.
AJ: (26:11)
I had forgotten that part of the story. That is insane.
Lisa: (26:11)
I love it. That's great.
Kate: (26:11)
I really wanted to just knock everything off my to-do list. So I was super grateful that AJ was going home to get our bags because he would not have let that fly.
AJ: (26:26)
I would have been like, "Hard pass on Trader Joe's, as much as I love it. You know, because it's like, we didn't quite have the baby in the Uber. We didn't quite have the baby on the subway. Maybe we'll have the baby in Trader Joe's!"
Kate: (26:38)
So I got my coconut water, I got some stuff to drink, I got some snacks.
AJ: (26:42)
Meanwhile, I came back here to the apartment and was just like....
Kate: (26:44)
AJ was, like, in a hot sweat, like, in a flurry...
AJ: (26:47)
I'm just, like, in the apartment, like, running around just, like—and our bag is, like, packed. It's, like, 90%-95% packed, and I'm, like, "What else are we going to need?" And I'm just running around like a chicken with my head cut off, like, as if I've never been in this apartment in my life before. I'm like, "Where is everything? I don't know what I'm doing!" But it took me much longer than it should have to get back out of the apartment.
Lisa: (27:05)
I'm glad it was mostly packed.
AJ: (27:08)
I got the stuff here at the apartment and made my way back to—over by where Kate was, at NYU.
Kate: (27:13)
And as I was, like, still going there, the contractions would, like, ramp up and get close together and then they would, like, fizzle again. I was, like, downing a ton of water because I was, like, "Maybe this is due to dehydration." We totally didn't know, but we were going to stick it out there at least until rush hour was over. And near to NYU's campus there's also, like, a chapel that I've visited a few times, just, like, on lunch break and stuff. Anytime I needed to. And this just seemed like a really good opportunity to, like—you know, I'm waiting to have this baby. I'm, like, in pain, you know, which, like—so often pregnant women and laboring women are depicted as, like, suffering, you know? And so I was like, I need to just go into this chapel and get some perspective, you know. So it was like—it's a very quiet, serene chapel, which is super, you know, super different than the hustle and bustle you're getting on an NYC street. And I went in there just to, like, breathe a little bit, pray a little bit. I kind of walked the stations of the cross just to kind of remind myself of, like, what true suffering is, and that I was not suffering, I was not going to be suffering. I was actually just, like, going through this transition to bring life into the world. And I think it was a really great spot just to, like, get my head on straight. AJ, actually—I told him like, "That's where I am when you come back just so you can, like, meet me there, and we can just have some time to relax in here."
AJ: (28:31)
It was nice for both of us to just kind of sit for a second and take a deep breath, you know, kind of in the, like, in the silence, you know, it was nice.
Kate: (28:38)
It was great. So we—AJ met me there. We hung out there for a few more minutes. And then we decided we were going to go get something to eat, because there's a bunch of places around to eat, and we weren't quite ready to go to triage.
AJ: (28:50)
We thought about going to Chipotle but they were out of guacamole. So we said, "Nope, moving on."
Kate: (28:55)
And this pregnant lady needed guacamole. So no.
Lisa: (28:56)
Totally.
Kate: (29:00)
So I was like, I mean we are in Chipotle, and I was like, "Nope, we gotta go." So we ended up going to this little place called Bread and Butter, a little cafe across the street from NYU, and we got sandwiches and took them over to the river.
AJ: (29:13)
By the waterfront.
View from the ferry Kate & AJ took home while in early labor
Kate: (29:13)
Because NYU's right along the East River there, and the ferries come in and out there. That's actually how I usually get to work, taking the ferry. So it was really relaxing just to, like, sit on a park bench there and you know, be by the water, watch the ferries come in and out. And I had always joked with AJ, I was like, "In my most ideal birth story, I was gonna, like, go into gentle labor, walk to the ferry on the Astoria side, get on the ferry, take a nice calm ferry ride, labor on the ferry, walk another two blocks to NYU, walk into those doors and, like, have the baby." That was like, I was like, "I don't even, I don't even want to be, like, in triage or on, like, the eighth floor. I just want to, like, walk into the hospital and have the baby.
AJ: (29:57)
Assuming we didn't have the baby on the ferry.
Kate: (29:57)
That would have been okay, too. I totally would have been ok with having it on the ferry. Pack a few extra, you know blankets, and..
AJ: (29:57)
It'd be totally fine.
Kate: (30:02)
So I joked with him that like, "Oh, you know, we're still getting to, like, see the ferries, and that's great." So we ate and we labored—and when I talk labor, I'm not, like, bellowing or anything. I'm just kind of, like, holding my breath and kind of, you know, kind of grunting through the contractions. We decided to stay. We really thought maybe it was going to happen. So we went into the NYU lobby. My doula grace, she suggested to throw on some sneakers and to walk the halls there. She said, you know, "Do stairs. You might just take one step up on a stair and your water just might break and you're in the perfect spot for that to happen." So I walked for about a half-hour, I did stairs for about a half-hour. I decided, "You know what? Okay, that's just my workout for the day. Like, nothing is happening."
Kate: (30:55)
And around nine o'clock at night we were just, like, getting a little bit uncomfortable and tired and cranky and hungry. And what I was thinking is, "I don't want to just go into triage and be admitted because we're here." You know, I was like—that is the perfect recipe to go in, you know, and worst-case scenario, be admitted, "Oh your labor is not progressing and then maybe we need to, you know, give you some Pitocin or maybe we need to think about a C-section" or something. So those were some of the fears that I had about going into triage then. So we did get on the ferry and we went back to Astoria.
AJ: (31:30)
She got her ferry ride.
Kate: (31:30)
We got our ferry ride.
Lisa: (31:30)
I love that so much. That ferry is such an oasis in New York.
Kate: (31:38)
Such an oasis.
AJ: (31:38)
Yeah, truly.
Kate: (31:38)
And we'd never been on the ferry at night. So we're like, we're getting on the ferry at night. You're seeing, like, all the city lights, you go by the Pepsi-Cola sign on Long Island City. And then we made it back to Astoria, got into just a regular cab this time and went back home. We were like, "You know what? It's probably happening tonight, but I mean, who cares? At least we'll get to go, like, lay down in our bed for a little while." So we got home. Penelope was already sleeping. We relieved the babysitter. We made sure that someone was on call for the night and actually one of our good family friends lives on the corner. Her name is Ivy, the momma's name is Ivy and she has two kids as well. So like, she knows how quick she needs to be if we give her a call. So she was like, "I'm on call for you, whatever time of night." We went to bed...
AJ: (32:27)
We got home at what? It was probably, like, 10, 10:30...
Kate: (32:29)
And then...I'm telling the whole story. Do you want to tell some of the story?
AJ: (32:35)
No, no, I'm just here for color commentary.
Lisa: (32:38)
And AJ, before you have to duck out to go, I just want to be sure that we protect a little bit of time for you to share any of your reflections on the whole time. That can be whenever. I don't know when you need to leave so we can...
AJ: (32:52)
Oh, sure, if anything specifically, you know, jumps out at you, fire away and I'll give you my, I'll give you my honest opinion.
Kate: (33:00)
Birth is eminent here. So we get home at 10. At midnight, I'm having different contractions. And these contractions are strong, they're close together.
AJ: (33:09)
It happened really quickly, I felt like, after...because we, like, well, we got home and we were in bed within 20 minutes of walking in the door, but I think within—I don't know, another half hour after that, Kate wakes me up and is like, "Hey, we need to start timing these. I think it's getting serious." And you know, we're in between, like, clicking the timer on our phone, and then we both sort of fall asleep for six more minutes, and then she, like, shakes me awake and I start the timer and then we stop the timer and we both go back to sleep, like, for six minutes. And we probably did that for at least an hour, an hour and a half. And then yeah. And then it got, it got intense enough that I called the doula, and this was another one of those situations in which it was just so nice to have somebody with, like, concrete suggestions on what to do. She was like, "Okay, based on what you're telling me right now, you guys need to get in the car, and I'm going to get in the car and we'll see you in 15 minutes."
Kate: (33:58)
And one thing to throw in there and add just for any other, you know, for mamas who are listening to this for their second babies—something that happened for me—and I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, is those contractions when we thought, "Okay, now it's time to go," in between those contractions I had started to have, like, kind of, like, shakes in between them. So whereas before, like, I'd have a contraction, it would fizzle and I could rest, have a contraction, it would fizzle—I all of a sudden started to have, like, just trembling. Almost like I was cold or, like, I had, like, a neurologic tremble in between, and it just felt like, very much like an energy shift to me. That's how I described it to AJ. And that's when I was like, "Oh man, like, these are different. We need to call Grace and we might need to go."
AJ: (34:42)
It's such a weird thing, too, to—you have these, you know, people in place that are gonna help you, help you out with, you know, your firstborn because you've got to go have the second born. But we don't have any family here. And so we had all, again, like, Kate had mentioned, we had all these people in line who are going to help us. And so to call your neighbor at 12:30 and be like, "Hi, sorry to wake you up, I know you have two kids, too. Could you come over and sleep in our bed while our kid is still sleeping so we can call an Uber and go to the hospital?" It's, like, the most insane situation to be in. And yet, you know, it all, you just put the steps in place and you plan for it and everything goes fine. You know, it's just, it's just a weird thing to sort of wrap your head around while you're in the process of planning it.
Kate: (35:25)
Yeah.
Lisa: (35:26)
Sure. And how wonderful that you guys do have that community that you were able to draw from to find the help that you needed.
AJ: (35:33)
Unbelievably lucky. Yeah. For sure.
Kate: (35:35)
And Lisa that's actually where, you know, your class gave us one of the greatest gifts of all, a huge piece of that community, our really, really good—I might say, like, our best couple family friends, Sam and Dee, we met in Lisa's class, and they have two daughters as well that are just about the same age as Penelope and Daphne. And there is just, like, nothing like friends, and especially friends who are going through the same thing that you are at the same time. You know, if you have friends, you know you're having a newborn and then your friends have, like, a toddler, it's just—you're in really different places. But we've been able to share so much with our friends, Sam and Dee having our girls so close in age.
AJ: (36:19)
And what was, what, maybe they had, they had their second daughter, what, two months before us? Three months. Yeah. I hope they don't hold it against me that I don't remember their daughter's birthday. We had been able to help, you know, help them out as they needed some, some help while they had Luna and had, you know, been going back and forth to the hospital and stuff like that. So it was, you know, we knew that we could count on them as well. And I mean, again, just kind of back to your point, it's really a lovely thing to know that you've got a community here in your neighborhood that really has your back.
Kate: (36:59)
Yeah. So we took an Uber, an uneventful Uber to NYU, and...
AJ: (37:05)
Our doula pulls up directly behind us, also in a car.
Kate: (37:12)
Again, as I was sitting, the contractions were getting super strong. As I got out of the car, they were, like, fizzling again. And I was like, "Darn it, we're here again and it's going to fizzle." I was getting, like, I was getting a little bit annoyed at this point. But doula, our Grace.... Grace, our doula, she said, "You know what? It just feels like we should keep going on to triage." So we walked on up to triage and I felt so silly because the woman at the desk was like, "Okay, and why are you here?" And I was like, "Why am I here?" like, "I don't look like I'm in any pain. Like..."
AJ: (37:46)
Meanwhile, I'm thinking, "Why do you think we're here? Do we really have to answer this question right now?"
Kate: (37:53)
And then luckily I had a contraction right in front of her. So then I was like, "Okay, she can tell, like, this is it."
AJ: (38:00)
But talk about perfect timing because we get into...
Kate: (38:03)
We get into triage and Grace said something like, "Okay, you know, it's okay that we're here. Don't think that we're here too early. As soon as your water breaks, the contractions are going to ramp up and you're going to have that baby." And, like, the very next contraction I felt, like, a water balloon burst inside me. Luckily I had my, like, Depends on, so it wasn't a movie scene.
AJ: (38:25)
And I had my depends on, too, Lisa. Yeah, that was such a great moment though because like, you know, as soon as the contractions subsided, like, you know, Kate went into the bathroom for a second. And the doula, Grace, and I are out in this, you know, hospital room in this hospital room, just the two of us. And we are fist pumping and high fiving, like, "Here we go! It's happening. You know, we made it!"
Kate: (38:50)
And it truly did happen after that. So after that the contractions were just, like, unbelievable. I think I remember a resident coming in and saying like, "Okay, please get on your back. I need to check you." And I was just like, "No." Oh, you were almost there. You're not supposed to make your debut yet. I was like, "I can't get on my back. I'm so sorry. I was like, check me on my hands and knees or don't check me, like, this baby is coming."
AJ: (39:14)
This baby's on the way.
Kate: (39:14)
Hey, Daphne bear, this is the most exciting part. You're getting ready to come out.
AJ: (39:22)
So Kate was on the, you know, on the bed in that, like, triage room we were in and they just wheeled her over across the hallway into, you know, one of the, one of the labor rooms and...
Kate: (39:33)
And my body started, like, on the contractions, my body started pushing and it was, like, totally not under my control. There's a better word for that, but I could just, like, not control it. As soon as the contraction came on, my body was, like, bearing down. And I remember someone was, like, casually like, "Oh yeah, can you call so-and-so on call?" And our doula just goes, "She's pushing!"
AJ: (39:56)
And we were like, "That's why we have the doula. So she can make the announcements."
Kate: (39:56)
I mean she did so much for us. She's, like, giving me cool air. She's, like, supporting AJ, supporting me, reminding them of our birth preferences. So our OB enters and it just so happens we get the OB that recommended we use the birth center.
AJ: (40:17)
Of all the OBs, she was the one who was like, "I don't know if this is going to be a fit, you know, in the long run."
Kate: (40:24)
And we're just like, okay, that's just, like, the cherry on top, bring it on, like, let's have this baby.
AJ: (40:32)
Long story short, like, with regard to that, like, she was phenomenal and she was great and was such a boon to their practice, like, we're, we're lucky to have had the experience. Yeah, it was great.
Kate: (40:43)
And so, I mean because with this second birth, like, that last part of labor is just so fast that I went in there. It was like, in my mind, I feel like I was in there for five minutes. So we're in the delivery room. I'm still pushing on my hands and knees. They asked me, you know, "It's really going to be best for, for us to help you if you can turn over and lie on your back." Because they said, you know, "We really think that by supporting yourself on your knees, you're kind of holding the baby in." And so after a few more pushes, I was like, "You know what?"—here's where the visualization comes in and helps, like, I knew I would find myself in this situation and I chose to be in this space that I feel comfortable in. And that was the least effort for me when I was nine months pregnant. And then, you know, working full time and parenting—so I just said, "Okay." You know, I turned over onto my back. I got a little bit nervous because I got this moment of, like, clarity where I didn't feel pain. I didn't feel contractions, I didn't feel the energy shift. And I was like, "Oh no, they stalled my labor," like, "Oh my goodness." But I think that it was just, like, the calm before the storm because the contractions came right back on and it was, like, time to push her out. They said "We see her head," you know, so I said, "Can I feel it?" And I reached down, I felt her head, which I later described to AJ that kind of felt, like, a jellyfish. Like a really small top of, like, a jellyfish. And I was like, "Oh my God, that's her head." Like it was, like, so smushed and that...
Lisa: (42:16)
I wonder if there was part of the membranes on it because the, like—a jellyfish texture sounds...do you think? I wonder if...
Kate: (42:24)
I don't know. They were telling me I was touching the head. I don't really know if I was, but it just felt like I had smooshed her head down to the size of, like, a golf ball or something and I was like, "Oh my God!" Like, "Her head can't be that small. We have to, like, push her out as fast as we can!" I gave a few more good pushes. I mean, this part I feel like I was just on such a, like, an adrenaline and, like, hormone high that—are there any other significant things about, like, the, pushing her out?
AJ: (42:54)
It really was so much, just so much quicker than—you know, everybody tells you the second birth is going to go so much more quickly. And I think when you really, like, sort of, like, bore down and pushed twice, maybe three times, you know, to get, you know, Daphne out and it was, yeah, it was, it was great. The only thing, the only sort of thing of note that that happened during the pushing was when they got her head out, the cord was wrapped around her neck one time. And so they sort of, like, stopped Kate from pushing and prepared for that quickly. But as they were, you know, sort of delicately trying to unwrap the cord, it, I guess is the term avulsed? Where it just kind of basically exploded right there in their hands. And so the Doctor—I mean everybody acted very quickly. They said "Deliver now. Deliver now. Deliver now." And that baby was out like that and they threw her up onto Kate's chest and were, you know, very vigorously kind of, you know, rubbing and stimulating to get her going. But...
Kate: (43:48)
Which I guess, like, they said, the avulsion of the cord is, like, no harm to mother. It did just prevent AJ from cutting the cord, which was something that we would have loved if possible, but it wasn't possible and that was fine. And you know, the vigorous rubbing I don't think was for any reason that, like, something bad was happening. I think that's just, they want to stimulate to hear a cry, and—yeah. And they got that. She had a really great APGAR score. She had, like, a nine out of 10 and
AJ: (44:16)
We didn't know we were, you know, what we were having. And we had another girl, and I was thrilled to be the only male in this sorority house.
Lisa: (44:24)
Daddy's girls.
AJ: (44:24)
Lucky for me, yeah.
Kate: (44:31)
At NYU they were so incredible about, you know, for as much as I was, like, holding onto, like, "I want to birth in whatever position I want to birth in and I should be able to," I mean, that one tiny piece aside, everything else was so lovely. They put her right onto my skin. You know, they covered her with a blanket but they didn't wipe her off per our request. And that whole hour after birth was just completely uninterrupted. Nobody else touched her except for AJ and I, and she, like, could kind of find her way to the breast to nurse, which she did, which was so beautiful.
AJ: (45:03)
There were a couple of other things—it kind of escapes me now, but putting the antibiotic on the eyes and the vitamin K shot, right? We specifically...
Kate: (45:10)
They waited, they waited until, like, 59 minutes and 50 seconds. Because there's one of those that has to be like...
AJ: (45:19)
Within an hour or something. We expressed that we would really just like a little bit of time with just the three of us right here. And they were so respectful of that, which was really, really nice.
Kate: (45:28)
I didn't really want the erythromycin on the eyes at all. And so I had mentioned that to her, too. So I said, "You know, could you just put, like, the tiniest bit, so that you can, like, say that you put it on?" And so she, like, gave a teeny tiny dab and I just, like, wiped it off right away.
AJ: (45:43)
And we did that the first time around, too. We were like, "Yeah, go ahead. Put the dab on, we're going to wipe it off, but just look the other way."
Kate: (45:48)
But I mean their hands are tied, too. So the system, you know, will change in its own time. But what else? Yeah.
AJ: (45:59)
I probably have about four or five minutes, Lisa, before I'm going to jump in a car.
Lisa: (46:04)
Okay. Do you want to, do you want to share any reflections on either of the births—on your role in it or becoming a father or any of that?
AJ: (46:16)
Yeah, I think as far as, like, my role goes, and maybe this is just, it's a, it's a credit, you know, it's, it is a credit to Kate just to like—she has to make so many decisions, you know, that go into this. Not, not just because, you know, it's, like, it's her right. And it's, and it's her body, but it's—this thing is happening, whether any of us are ready or want it to in this moment or not, you know. And as, as the, you know, nine months went on, I was just given privy to voice my opinion on everything, you know, which was, which was great, and I think it fostered a lot of communication between us, which it did the first time, you know, the first time as well. And the biggest thing is just, like, the fear of the unknown.
AJ: (47:03)
You know, it's, you have to put so many steps in place to have a baby in New York and it's, it's stressful, you know, for both of us. And it's doubly stressful when you have a child already here at home that you're—you just can't predict, like, is she going to be taken care of when the birth starts to happen or do we need to get somebody over? What are we, what are we going to do? And so that, that was the biggest thing for me was, like, cause of stress. I think I had seen Kate birth a child the first time around and I was like, "Girlfriend, you're a warrior. We're going to be fine either way." So I wasn't concerned in any way about any of that. And you know, luckily I think for us it—things sort of unrolled, maybe not exactly how we would have written the script, but it was pretty damn good. So I think we, I think we're, yeah, we're very lucky that things went the way they did. And two really beautiful healthy girls.
Lisa: (47:58)
Any tips that you would have for expectant parents? A lot of people who are listening are expecting their first baby. Maybe their second, but yeah. Any tips on labor or on parenting?
AJ: (48:10)
Yeah, sure. The main, the main piece of advice I've given to—we have, we have some, a couple of other couple friends who, some are—one's due in December, one's due in January. And the thing that I feel like I've expressed to, like, the, the husbands who, you know, both have become really good friends is: lean on your community and lean on your friends because, you know, it's like Kate said earlier when she was talking about this friendship we've developed with Sam and Dee that we met in your class, it's: to be going through these sort of watershed moments of life with another, like, another couple friend who get exactly what you're going through. It's, like, sometimes you don't even have to use words, you just, they just get it because they're like, "We're in it, too. We're in it, too, bro, like, we totally understand." And that's, that's the main thing is, like, lean on your community. Accept help when it's offered and don't feel, like, you're, you know, putting someone out when—I mean, we called our neighbor at 12:30 in the middle of the night to be, like, again, "Come sleep in our apartment because we got to go." And she was like, "I am there." And she was here in two and a half minutes. So
Kate: (49:16)
And actually I think then when we were bringing Daphne home, Sam actually came and stayed with our daughter Penelope.
AJ: (49:21)
That's right. They had two kids at home, too. Yeah that's right.
Kate: (49:25)
Yeah. And came and stayed. So AJ could come pick Daphne and I up. So yeah, community is everything.
AJ: (49:31)
Yeah. And you know, like, I think most people know this and, but we really, really tried to embrace this the second time around is, like, you can only control what you can. And plan for things or what, you know, what is the, what is the sort of old saying go? It's like, "Expect the best but plan for the worst" or something like that. And that's, I mean that's, that's it. And you know, I think with, with the way Kay was talking about how she was, like, visualizing all the different things that could go right and could go wrong and how would we adapt and evolve within those moments. I think that's really important just to know that many, many, many roads can lead you to this same beautiful ending of your story with having this healthy child. You know, and it's worked out twice for us. And you know, if, if and when children come for us, like, hopefully it'll be that same kind of story.
Lisa: (50:32)
Wonderful. Well said.
AJ: (50:34)
Very eloquent.
Lisa: (50:34)
Yes. Very eloquent. Thank you for those tips. That's great. Wisdom, support and flexibility.
AJ: (50:41)
Yeah, for sure. Is it is it okay if I bid you bid you adieu and I'll leave you ladies to it?
Lisa: (50:45)
Yes, yes, yes. Break a leg.
AJ: (50:49)
Thanks, Lisa. You're awesome, and your class has continued to be something that we have recommended to others and that we have, you know, we relied on a second time around with our baby, and refer back to the materials you'd given us, and you've given counsel to us and just want anybody who's listening to know that you're amazing and they should check you out.
Kate: (51:05)
Yay!
Lisa: (51:05)
Oh, thank you, AJ. That means the world coming from you guys. Thanks very much.
Kate: (51:13)
Break a leg, baby.
Lisa: (51:13)
So Kate is staying with us here. I love it. I love it when partners can join, just because they don't have their voices heard nearly as frequently. So I'm so glad he could join us, at least for part of it. Most of it.
Kate: (51:29)
And he had, you know, he had so much fun, I think, with it, too, that it's good to hear the voice of fathers that are, like, active in these roles, you know, and [inaudible]. Oh, that's mine.
Lisa: (51:45)
Do you want me to pause it?
Kate: (51:46)
No, I don't. I don't need to take it at all. Unknown caller.
Kate: (51:50)
Probably those Chinese robocalls.
(51:52)
Right.
Lisa: (51:52)
Now, where would you, like, to go from here? Do you want to talk about right after birth or...?
Kate: (52:00)
Sure. Yeah. So right after the immediate birth, one hour uninterrupted skin-to-skin, all the feels. We got to kind of, you know, just fall in love with her and look at her and rub her vernix in a little bit. And I just have only incredible things to say about the nurses on both the labor and delivery unit at NYU and the mother-baby unit. I have never been taken better care of in any kind of medical situation as I was on the mother-baby unit there. They, it's a baby-friendly hospital, right? Which means that your baby can—and kind of should—room in with you as much as possible. But I thought that, like, they even took it a step further and as much as they want you to keep the baby with you for all this time for the benefits for doing, like, all this skin-to-skin, they also kind of recognized and helped me out as a second-time mom. You know, like, you kind of know how to diaper, you know, how to swaddle you, you've learned all of these things. And so at night I said, you know, "I'm really trying to, like, spend a bit of time here just to rest up before I go home to a toddler." So they would take her just while she was sleeping to the nursery, which I think they don't typically do, but I had specifically requested that, and I thought that was, like, baby-friendly. They have baby-friendly practices, but then they were also, like, mother-friendly as well, you know, and they would wait for cues or wait until she woke and bring her right to me. And one nurse was even like, "Here, you know, you just nurse her, then I'll take her and change her and re-swaddle her" and like, you know, so that I could go right back to sleep. And I just thought that that was really above and beyond. Because I do want all of those moments with her for the skin-to-skin and to feed her as soon as she needs it, you know, but I also did need to rest and recuperate and all of that.
Kate: (54:01)
You know, just to give a little bit of overview, the rooms are super tiny at NYU and that ended up being okay. I had a roommate and AJ needed to be at home overnight with Penelope, so it was fine that he was there during the day, which was amazing. And then he would go home at night and actually my roommate's husband also wasn't there, so it was roomy enough. But you know, I think actually on the last night I was there, they came in at about 11:00 PM and they said, "You're next on the list. Do you want the private room?" And I was like, "No, I just want to roll over and go back to sleep, like, that's okay." But it was, I mean it's kind of biased since I, it's not fair since I work there, it sounds like I'm just saying great things about the company that I work for, but everyone was so incredible, like, from the cleaning staff and the meal service people and just, like, everyone made me feel, like, so comfortable, so well taken care of. They made me feel like Daphne was in great hands, and if you're going to give birth in the city—it comes with small rooms and it comes with some constraints. But the people were, I just cannot say enough great things about the people at NYU. So thanks to them if anyone's listening.
Lisa: (55:16)
Great. And how did initial breastfeeding go?
Kate: (55:18)
Yeah, so initial breastfeeding, she, she did that, you know, kind of finding the nipple on her own for that initial latch, which is also—for our breastfeeding journey, like, that's also a little bit of the reason why I really didn't want erythromycin for the eyes—that's an antibiotic for the eyes. Because I didn't want her vision to become, like, a little bit clouded in those first few hours. And you know, sometimes people are like, "Oh, just do what you have to do." But it's like, I mean, it could really affect your breastfeeding journey and who knows if it's because of all the tiny steps we've taken to have a good breastfeeding journey. But we really did have a very good breastfeeding journey and we've had up till now, I mean still so far. But I think one of the biggest things was—I mean, of course I knew how to breastfeed from my first birth, so experience was one of the greatest things—and then beyond that, doing so much skin-to-skin and just nursing her so frequently, it was great at, like, getting the milk to come in, you know, she was feeling responded to.
Kate: (56:20)
And so I think that really set us up for the healthy breastfeeding relationship that we have up until now. And I mean, for anyone else who's listening who hasn't had such a good breastfeeding experience, you can do all of that and sometimes you can still encounter bumps in the road. So not to say that that should have happened if you did all of that, but we're so grateful that that's the way it played out for Daphne. And yeah, so the initial breastfeeding experience was great. They have classes there. So I went to one of the classes, but I think they also have lactation consultants that will come to your bedside if you need, because really early on, and I can I guess speak about Penelope's birth—I mean, it was a circus to breastfeed her. Like, I would go to a class—you know, for a mother who's never breastfed, it's like, "Okay, the baby needs to be to your chest, nipple to nose," like, all these things and "The baby needs to take, like, a wide bite," but you can't figure out how to get the baby to open their mouth so wide.
Kate: (57:19)
And I just have this snapshot in my mind memory of—my sister was there when Penelope was born or just shortly after she was born. But when I was trying to initially get the breastfeeding underway. And she's on one side of me, AJ's on the other side, I'm in the middle with Penelope. We'd just taken this class. They both heard what I heard and, like, the three of us are trying to get her to latch, you know, and everyone is, like, doing a part, like, someone has her positioned on me, and then someone's trying to sandwich the boob, and someone's trying to get her to, like, get her chin down. But I just, it was so comical, you know, we're all trying so hard to, like, make it work. And it did work out in the end, but it is super effortful if you're a first time mom, you know, because you don't know how to breastfeed. The baby doesn't know how to breastfeed. And so, like, you're trying to get these two wrongs to make a right. And then the second time around, I think a lot of parents find it much easier where it's like, at least I know what to do. Maybe my baby doesn't know what to do, but I'm going to teach the baby—and yeah, it's fun.
Lisa: (58:28)
And I know that your first birth had some challenges. Do you have anything you'd want to share about the healing journey from that? Was the second birth healing in any specific ways? Or did that work happen mostly before the second birth?
Kate: (58:46)
I'm so glad you asked that, because I think absolutely having a second birth in which I advocated for myself more and more clearly helped heal my feelings from my first birth immensely. Like, actually I think I had told you right after Penelope's birth that, you know, I'd really had—a lot of things just didn't go the way I'd hoped. And I had a practitioner because our midwives—one was out—and we had an OB covering and there just wasn't good bedside manner and there really wasn't a lot of option, or it didn't feel like there was a lot of option on my part and it took me a while to heal from that.
Kate: (59:28)
You know, I still ended up having a vaginal delivery with the use of a vacuum, but I think it was more just, like, how I felt like I was treated during that time, rather than what the outcome was. You know, because everyone always uses the same example like, "Oh, but you had a healthy baby, you should be happy." And I was so grateful for a healthy baby. I was so grateful that I was healthy. But still, the way I felt I was treated both during that birth and then in the care, the care was just very disorganized after, and I won't harp on that too long. But absolutely I cried about it a lot afterwards. I journaled about it. You welcomed me if I wanted to, to journal and send that to you. But I don't even think I made it that far because I was just feeling so, like, teary anytime I would try to retell that story.
Kate: (01:00:16)
But in my second pregnancy I totally took that as, like, a learning opportunity that like, okay, here's what happened. So number one, if things don't go as planned—and things probably never go exactly as planned—then how do you deal with that? Right? So I went in more mentally prepared. I still prepared my birth preferences. When speaking with practitioners, I really spoke with them as if they were someone that I'm hiring. You know, I was very polite and I, and I wanted to be a team player, but I definitely did not want to be you know, like, a, you know, I didn't want my birth to become over-medicalized, because I was looking at this as, like, this is an experience that I only get a few of in life, maybe only two. Right? And so I was like, "Not only do I not want anyone to be in danger, of course, but I also want to have an incredible experience. I want to remember it well, I want, you know, my babies to have a good experience during it. I want my family to have a good experience. I just want it to be like—you know, I don't want it to be treated, like, an illness." Of course. You know, so, and I think I shared that hope with my practitioners all along the way. And I felt Dr. Moritz was, like, right on board with me. He and his midwives are amazing and they want that for you, too. And, and I think all practitioners want that for you. But I actually, as a physical therapist, I had a patient who was an OB, she was actually a retired OB. And before I discharged her from my care, I said, you know, like, "Can I just ask you a question?" you know, because she can see I'm pregnant and we'd been talking about it.
Kate: (01:01:58)
And I said, "Can I just get your perspective as an OB, like, when moms are coming in—and I think there's, like, a new wave of mothers who are coming in that are more educated and more empowered and like, 'Hey, I'm the one that's going to be giving birth. I'm hiring you to assist me to do that.'" And I shared some of my preferences with her and I said, you know, "When you hear that as an OB, a woman wanting to, like, birth in whatever position she wants and not wanting to be connected to IVs and, you know, not wanting to have interventions to progress it along, and really just wanting to have, like, a very physiologic birth," I was like, "give me your, you know, opinion on that so that I can better understand my OB, you know, and where they're coming from." And she said something really helpful to me. She said, "You know, I think probably the reason that OBs are asking you to—we were speaking very specifically about delivering in a supine position with your legs kind of splayed open and up to your face—is," she said, "I think, you know, that is the way they're trained, and that is the way they are most comfortable and most able to help you. So they really want to help you and they want to help you in the way that they know to help you best." Right? And so that kind of clicked for me and said, "Okay, yeah, maybe some things definitely need to change about, like, the medical education system, maybe. But that is not a change I'm going to be making during my birth, you know, in that delivery room." So, like, it really helped me to work with my OB as, like, a teammate, you know?
Kate: (01:03:31)
And I think during my first birth it was really, like, we were butting heads, you know, it was, like, my wishes against what you're asking me to do just for the sake of having you respect my wishes. And I think that, you know, being a little more go-with-the-flow if it's something you can compromise on, it was really helpful and was really instrumental in me having a very positive experience with Daphne. And then I think that was instrumental in helping me heal from my birth experience with Penelope. Yeah.
Lisa: (01:04:03)
Thank you so much for sharing that.
Kate: (01:04:06)
That was a lot.
Lisa: (01:04:06)
Oh, it was wonderful. It was so wonderful. And I think it's really important. I just want to kind of repeat a little bit of something you said, and compare it to something I've read in surveys that have been done on mothers. There is this Listening to Mothers survey that has been done, and the biggest factor in the vast majority of women's satisfaction on the other side of birth was feeling heard and feeling like they had a voice, and feeling like they received compassionate care. And that was something that it sounded like, was key for you.
Kate: (01:04:45)
Yeah. And isn't there some initiative right now in New York that's, like, it's been awhile since I've read the flyer, but it's like, "Respectful care for mothers" or something for birthing mothers. There's, like, specifically some initiative that's out there right now that, oh, it's, like, this cute little purple and yellow flyer that is all about, you know, giving informed consent and you know, just making sure that there's no discrimination happening in, you know, delivery rooms. Oh, I'm going to have to look that up and maybe send you that link for the show notes.
Lisa: (01:05:20)
I would love that. Yes, thanks.
Kate: (01:05:21)
I saw that and I was like, "Oh, that's a really cool thing that should maybe be on the backside of my birth preferences." But to my surprise it was actually posted in the delivery room at NYU. And so I was like, "Hey, okay. They're on the same page."
Lisa: (01:05:36)
Nice. Nice. Well, I would just ask you the same thing that I asked AJ earlier. Do you have any final tips, wisdom that you'd like to share with expectant parents?
Kate: (01:05:48)
Yeah. So I think my biggest tip would be just: knowledge is power. I think that when we started taking your class Lisa you just really, like, explaining every piece of this physiological process that is pregnancy and birth. I think I was just like, "Whoa, I did not look at it like that." And it gave me this hunger for more knowledge about it. And so I ended up, like, researching a bunch of stuff, listening to way too many podcasts, a thousand podcasts, reading the Ina May's, her book that has all of the birth stories in it, which is so awesome. That's essentially, like, what your podcast is, giving positive birth experiences. And just by gaining all of that knowledge, it really allows you to look at birth differently. Right? I never thought I would've been able to give birth unmedicated but I've done it twice now.
Kate: (01:06:46)
And I think that's entirely just based on this understanding of what happens and understanding that, like, every piece of what happens in labor and delivery, it's for a purpose. So in short, biggest tip is just learn as much as you can. And also AJ was saying, like, accept help when it's given, but I would really encourage mamas to accept help from your partner. Because so often, like, you know, we feel like we should do it all, or should be able to do it all. And someone might say like, "Oh, you know, what can I do for you? Or can I do this for you?" And it's easy to deflect it. Because I think women—strong women are typically, like, just saying, "Oh no, I got it. I can do it." But you know, let them help you. And if they're not offering, ask them for help. And ask them for something specific. You know, maybe make yourself—I'm the queen of lists, so maybe make yourself a list when you're, like, feeling lucid of all the things you could use help with. That way, when you don't know what you could use help with, but you know you need help, you can refer to it, you know, or give them the list or something.
Lisa: (01:07:54)
Yeah. And on that second point, Dee and Sam, who shared their two stories in the past two episodes, brought that same thing up. Dee was saying that they were having a discussion in the middle of the night, in the middle of the night feed early on. I forget after which birth, I think it was the first one. And they were realizing, or Sam was pointing out that besides breastfeeding, there's nothing that he can't help with, or do, you know, and that that was such an important thing for partners to keep in mind is that really breastfeeding is the only thing...
Kate: (01:08:27)
Right. Letting the milk flow out of your boob is the only thing that you can't do.
Lisa: (01:08:30)
And even then, they can support you in breastfeeding. They can come and massage your shoulders to help that milk to literally flow. And there are still things they can do related to that, even.
Kate: (01:08:41)
Right. After my first birth, Penelope, I mean we were learning so much then, but every time I would nurse Penelope, AJ would prop my feet up, stick a pillow underneath my Breast Friend pillow, or whatever that is, stick pillows underneath my arms, give me water, bring me snacks. And then, I mean, you know, I think he's exceptionally amazing. But then even when I was pumping, which is and was my least favorite part of motherhood, he would often assemble the pump, set up the pump, clean the pump parts afterwards, label and fill the milk bag, you know, so, I mean, that is so true. There really is nothing that, you know, except for the actual lactating, there is nothing that husbands can't do. So lean on your partners—not husbands, partners.
Lisa: (01:09:30)
Yeah, absolutely. And everybody listen to Kate. We women think we have to carry that load and we need to let people help us.
Kate: (01:09:38)
Absolutely.
Lisa: (01:09:38)
It's too much. It's way too much for us to do it all. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much Kate. This has been lovely.
Kate: (01:09:46)
Yes, thank you so much for letting us share our story. Yeah, it was really, that's a great way to put it. It was very healing the second time around, and I think even, I've only, you know, journaled it, but I think even saying it out loud is also healing. So thanks for letting us chat with you.
Lisa: (01:10:01)
Absolutely. Thanks so much. I hope to see you guys in the neighborhood.
Kate: (01:10:04)
Yes. I hope to see you again soon. Thank you.
Lisa: (01:10:07)
Take care.
Kate: (01:10:09)
Bye bye.
Lisa: (01:10:10)
That wraps up today's birth story. Wasn't that so great? I absolutely love the part of Kate’s & AJ’s story in which Kate went into a chapel. If you believe in some kind of higher power, this time in life, this journey into parenthood, is a perfect time to slow down and reflect, meditate, pray. I love how tuned into her faith Kate is and how she knew that time of reflection and prayer would really center her. You heard something along these lines a couple of episodes ago, too, when Dee shared how she listened to cassette tapes with the music of her childhood, spent time with her best friend, and reflected back on her life just before she went into this huge metamorphic event. So take some time to ponder how this looks for you in the journey through pregnancy and into parenthood. Another thing I want to mention is that, in the show notes, I’ve linked to both the Listening to Mothers survey website as well as the World Health Organization’s recommendation on respectful maternity care during labor and childbirth. I believe this is likely the document that Kate mentioned being posted at NYU hospital. Regarding partner support, this topic has come up in a number of episodes. In episode 20, I discuss going through the postpartum plan and discussing how you’ll divide up responsibilities. You’ll also find a link in the show notes for that episode to that tool. In the process of giving birth and into early parenting, I cannot overemphasize how much you’ll need support, so please be sure to plan ahead for as much support as possible to protect your wellness. Okay, here’s a sneak peek of what’s up next week!.
Stephanie: (01:11:47)
It was the first time in my life where I was completely confident and in tune and trusting of my body in ways that I cannot explain. We live in a world where women are often told not to do those things, to not trust themselves, to not trust their bodies, not just in giving birth, but in many of our experiences that have to do with ourselves. But this experience, you know, really was transformative and powerful. Not just because I was becoming her mom, but I really had to trust my body to do what it had to do to birth this child. And I was, you know, just grateful that I had that experience and, and the training that you and Heidi provided was really instrumental to that.
Lisa: (01:12:27)
Before we go, I wanted to echo something Kate said. Remember that everything in a normal, healthy labor happens for a normal, healthy reason. Thanks for listening to the Birth Matters Podcast and be well.
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