Today’s birth story is part two of a two-part series and will be especially helpful for expectant parents whose baby gets a clubfoot diagnosis. Joe & Beckie share their journey of their son, Elliot, getting this diagnosis early in pregnancy. They also detail their birth story of a long, 30-hour induction several weeks before their due date due to low amniotic fluid. Beckie shares lots of details about the ways that her OB helped her feel involved and informed in the decision-making process every step of the way. Because she was not even quite 37 weeks when the induction took place, there are particular challenges to the induction that Beckie shares.
Episode Topics:
low grade fever develops and the things they do to bring it down
exam, only 4 cm, and then fully dilated and ready to push not much later, baby born
pelvic floor health discussion - class, kegels, reverse kegels
Joe’s part in the pushing stage and immediately after birth - delayed cord clamping, skin-to-skin, transitioning to postpartum room (first shared, then private)
discharge from hospital and coming home -- visitors while in hospital & establishing healthy boundaries
backed up to immediate postpartum support in hospital
balancing listening to own intuition with various care providers
early breastfeeding, low milk supply & formula supplementation due to too much weight loss
post-birth clubfoot treatments and remaining flexible in pregnancy, birth and beyond
postpartum visits with their doula (Audrey Jessup)
Joe’s insights on early parenting
finding community
Resources:
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens)
Clubfoot information (symptoms, causes, testing, diagnosis, types, etc.)
Dr. Raeka Talati, OB/GYN (NY Presbyterian Columbia, Manhattan)
Dr. Joshua Hyman (NY Presbyterian Columbia, Manhattan) - Orthopedist
Andrea Scannell/Momally - Mom’s groups in Astoria, Queens
Fit Pregnancy Club (SoHo)
Transcript:
Lisa: 0:01
You're listening to the Birth Matters Podcast, episode 13.
Joe: 0:04
It was hard for me in the first few days after we brought him home because I could tell that he wasn't as soothed by me as he was by his mom. The doula was helpful in that regard, too, because she kind of taught me to do some different movements, including like squats, so I'm getting some exercise. So we bounce him, I bounce him a lot, and me getting comfortable with him on my own, when mom is sleeping—I feel like for moms, it's so instinctual, they just go into mom mode but then for dads it's like, "Oh, what the hell am I supposed to do?"
Lisa: 0:41
Hey, there, and welcome to The Birth Matters Show. I'm your host, Lisa Greaves Taylor, founder of Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education and Labor Support. This show is here to lessen your overwhelm on the journey into parenthood by equipping and encouraging you with current best evidence info and soulful interviews with parents and birth pros. Please keep in mind the information on the show is not intended as medical advice or to diagnose or treat any medical conditions. We'd love to hear from you. Please follow and reach out to us on Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter @BirthMattersNYC. In today's episode, we continue with Becky and Joe's baby's birth story. We left off last time in the midst of the first stage of labor before pushing. They'll finish describing the birth story and then we'll talk about early breastfeeding and their baby's early treatments for clubfoot. Joe will also share his perspectives on some of the challenges he faced as a new dad and how their doula was helpful to him in the transition.
Lisa: 1:39
Before we jump into the story, I want to let you know that this episode is brought to you by Birth Matters NYC's Childbirth Education Classes. If you live in the New York City area, the best way to build your confidence and prep for an amazing birth and entry into parenthood and to connect with other expectant parents to build your very important support system is to attend group childbirth education classes. You'll spend quality time with your labor support partner in our comfy Astoria living room classroom as you prepare for not only birth but also for your best possible postpartum recovery and wellness, as well as early parenting, with classes on breastfeeding and newborn care techniques. Classes often book up about one to two months in advance, so be sure to grab your spot on the early side. For more information and to sign up, visit birthmattersnyc.com. Okey-dokey, let's jump in where we left off.
Joe: 2:30
But the epidural, you know, it was really, really key to getting us the rest we needed in those hours because everything would escalate by like 3:00 AM.
Becky: 2:44
Everything escalated really quickly after that. So I got some rest. Joe rested. Doula took a little nap.
Joe: 2:49
But when Becky woke up then you know there was an issue where she kind of developed a low grade fever and and so we, they had to do...
Lisa: 2:58
Very common.
Joe: 3:00
Antibiotics. And also they put an oxygen mask on. She was like getting everything on. A little stressful. You know.
Becky: 3:12
Like once we kind of like woke up from our little two hour nap all of a sudden, then things went very quickly towards the end. Yeah, so like 3 to 4:00 AM they came back in checking. She was like, "Okay." She was like, "I'm just gonna check where you are," and this was, this wasn't Dr. Talati at that point. This was one of the other doctors who was really lovely. I had an all female team. I saw—the only male I saw was the first admitting anesthesiologist. Everyone else was female, all nurses, whatever. Oddly enough. So she came back and she was like, "I'm going to check your dilation." She was like, "I'm going to tell you this, but, like, don't feel discouraged because a lot has happened. Your cervix is more spongy, more soft. It's in a good position. Like, a lot of things has happened." She was like, "But you're about four centimeters dilated." Oh my God.
Lisa: 3:59
"You've got to be kidding me."
Becky: 4:03
At that point I was like, I got the epidural, like, I'm just going to be here. She's like, "I'm going to go away. I'll come back in about an hour. I'll see where we are." I think it was at, like 2, yeah,
Joe: 4:13
It was earlier.
Becky: 4:13
It was earlier than that. So she's like, "I'm going to come back in about an hour and see where we are." And then, so in that hour she came back and it was like that. Like she was like, "Oh," she's like, "Now you're nine centimeters." Right.
Lisa: 4:24
Wow.
Becky: 4:25
So we went from four to nine.
Joe: 4:29
She was nine centimeters at 4am. And the, and then we started pushing about 4:30. Doctor would probably be in in an hour to deliver the baby. So the pushing took about one hour.
Becky: 4:43
She's, yeah, once it was nine centimeters, she came in and said, "Okay." She's like, "I'm going to go, we're going to do some practice pushes." She's like, "I'm going to go get the nurse in here. We're going to start getting things set up for pushing. They're gonna bring out the baby table and all that.
Joe: 4:59
But the practicing was actually the real thing though. They didn't say that. It was actually the real pushing, pushing. But you didn't feel that because of the epidural.
Becky: 5:10
I felt nothing.
Lisa: 5:10
You didn't.
Becky: 5:12
They kept, you know, they'd keep saying like, "Oh, you're going to feel pressure." I didn't, or like didn't know what it was supposed to feel like, as far as like they kept asking me like, "Do you feel like a contraction coming on?" And I'm just like, "What are you talking about? Like, you have a thing that's telling you. Maybe!" Like, I felt like maybe like a, like a period cramp type of pain. But not like deeper anything. I never felt like the top contraction here. I only ever felt like aching and cramping down below whenever I would be like starting a contraction. But it was hard. Like I really had to focus on feeling that because I felt like no pressure. I felt nothing. I was just like, you tell me when to push and we'll push.
Joe: 5:54
And that's when the demeanor of the nurses and the, everybody was really key because they were very good about just coaching her to push and saying she was doing a great job. Just reinforcing that it's, you know, it was, it was working. So it was like a mental boost in that regard. So the one nurse, Claire, was like, "Push, push, push, push, push. Yes! Yes! Yes! You're doing great. Yes!" It was just like that.
Becky: 6:19
I specifically was thinking like the whole entire like birth and pushing team, like the , and, well there was, yeah, there was one nurse, there was Joe. We had the doula, we had the doctor, like they were all like really lovely and calm.
Joe: 6:34
I was holding one leg.
Becky: 6:34
Joe had a leg. I kept like steeling myself for like, remember, like, you were talking about like, "Every nurse has this like really high pitched like crazy, I don't know why they do it." No one on our birth team did that. Like, they were just fine, I was just, like, I don't know, like, "This is great," like, "I feel good," like, "We're all in this together."
Lisa: 6:53
Wonderful.
Becky: 6:56
So yeah, we did that. At first I was pushing on my back and I said, "I'd really like to push on my side." They were like, "Okay, we can do that."
Lisa: 7:04
Yay!
Becky: 7:04
So like, yeah. So then around that time—I didn't have to have oxygen, so we had started the antibiotics whenever I had the fever or whatever. I didn't have to have oxygen until this time because they were, once we started pushing there were like, "Okay, every time you have like a deeper contraction, you're pushing, we see baby's heartbeat like dip a little bit. That's super concerning. But what we're going to do is put oxygen on you in between contractions like boost and like we'll just kind of go forward and see, see how things are." So again, like they were just, they were really wonderful about communicating what was happening. That became a lot, but whatever. So yeah, they did let me push on my side, which for me was better. I was like, "Okay, like I still can't feel anything," but I was mentally activating muscles in a better way in that position. I don't know. I don't know.
Lisa: 8:01
I think that just speaks a lot toward like find whatever position that you're able to, that that is instinctive, you know, because it sounds like that was the instinctive position for you.
Becky: 8:11
Like that to me, like I felt like I was having more like productive contractions. Like I didn't feel anything but what was happening on their end, you know what I mean? Like I was having more productive contractions. So yeah, we pushed for probably a little under an hour. At the end of that the doctor came in. They did make me push and deliver on my back, whatever. I was like, "Fine, I'm not fighting at this point." Like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. We're close. It's fine. So yeah, like that, at that point Dr. Talati was in and we were doing, I just remember at the very end she was like, "Okay," she was like, "baby is trying to, maybe baby is trying to do that, like up and over the pelvis thing." She was like, "Okay, so it's right there. So like, or the shoulders or like something, she was like, "Think about—" I forget what it was. And she was like, "And for the next few contractions and get through there." So then like the next push, she was like, "Oh, you did it. He's through. Like one push. So shout out to my pelvic floor exercise class I was doing, I guess. And then, yeah, then we had the baby.
Lisa: 9:24
May I ask where your pelvic floor class was?
Becky: 9:27
I had, it's called the Fit Pregnancy Club.
Lisa: 9:32
Heard good things about that.
Becky: 9:33
It's very good. It's basically like a bar class that's like breathing and stuff for pregnant ladies. Like I don't, I don't know, like I was active through my whole pregnancy, but like I started doing that around like 20 weeks. I would go like once a week. I think it was just like really helpful. I would say like the benefit of having a small baby and probably all of those things, I think my pelvic floor made it through very fairly intact. As far as like postpartum, everything has been fine, so that's good. Yeah.
Lisa: 10:05
And I'm just curious in those classes, did they—a lot of times in just standard pregnancy and standard care, we (in the U.S. anyway) we get told to do the kegels where it's just tightening, but what gets missed is the opposite, the relaxing that's required for giving birth. So I was just curious in the classes that you took...
Becky: 10:24
Yeah, it was the basically the class is like—was focused on a couple of things. One, like the activation of your pelvic floor and not just like do your kegels, which is like a very small, like one thing like the three, the triangle of your pelvis, like all the way like your rectum and the side and like thinking about it as like that little shelf that it is, right. So again, like mentally you're just, it's focused on this breathing technique where you're breathing out and you're releasing that pelvic floor. Like,
Lisa: 10:54
Yay, I love hearing this.
Becky: 10:56
So that, I mean that is really important. And then like as you're doing like your transverse abdominis, then you're kind of bringing everything up. But like from those three points together versus just the kegel which is like one specific thing. So yeah, I think that's like their whole like functional thing. So having like, that's basically what the class is focused around and then you like lift little weights. I highly recommend it. It's pricey as hell. I mean like, yes, there's a boutique fitness class for pregnant ladies. It's like $40 a class or something stupid.
Lisa: 11:30
But so worth it. It's, you know, it's for a short term.
Becky: 11:33
Yeah. Like I, I did, they had like a 20% off sale for Thanksgiving or Black Friday or something. And like I bought a bunch of classes and it was worth it. I think of the money you kind of spend on pregnancy, it was really beneficial.
Lisa: 11:47
Thank you for taking that sidetrack. It's just such an important topic that I, I think we need to, people need to know about more. So thanks. So anyway, the birth of the baby, you were saying...
Joe: 11:54
They encouraged me to watch and...
Becky: 11:59
He did. Oh wait, you tell your thing. He did all the things!
Joe: 12:02
Well they encouraged me to watch and to—they're like, "You want to see the head? The head's coming out." I was like, "Yeah, yes. Okay, sure." And I saw the head and it was like, it was amazing. And they had, what was the thing that they have in there that's like on the hook?
Becky: 12:14
Oh, they did the, they had at the end they put the fetal monitor on his head.
Lisa: 12:19
The internal monitor.
Joe: 12:23
Right. So, and then when the baby came out, like as Becky said, he pooped on the way out. They cleaned him up, they put him on Becky's chest for skin to skin.
Becky: 12:32
We did all of that. We did the delayed cord clamping, all of those things. No fight, no nothing.
Joe: 12:38
So he was officially like a day shy of 37 weeks. So, and so when he came out, he was, not screaming and crying. He was doing more of like a little like whimpering, I forget what they said that was, but they just said, you know, they'd put them under the, the warmer lamp and you know, he was fine. They were just, were watching his breathing and he was five pounds, six ounces, and he's still catching up on his weight. But, and, yeah. Our—the rest of our stay in the hospital was, was pretty good. We, after they kicked us out of the labor room, which was not that long after, they put us in the shared room, which was not great. And then they found us a private room, a few about an hour, couple of hours later and that's when we were able to really set up base camp for the next couple of days.
Becky: 13:31
Because all of the rooms at Morgan Stanley but five of them—I think they had like 40-ish rooms or whatever, and I think five of them are shared rooms. Everything else is private. Well it was pretty packed and they were like, "Okay, we're going to put you in here but we're going to try, like we're going to wait, just like wait and we'll try and get you, you know, like moved." I think we were in—the woman we were in with initially, like she had had a C-section so she was there for a couple of days but she was like by herself, like her husband or a partner I didn't see a partner with her. It was her second baby. We like talked for a minute but I was like still on—because I had had the fever, I was still on antibiotics. So the nurse is like really struggling to like come into the room and like change the IV and Joe's there and I'm there and it's like a whole thing. She's like, "I can't do my job in this room. We have to move you, like that's it."
Joe: 14:17
Yeah. So the private room was way better. Everyone needs a private room. What I would say, let...
Lisa: 14:22
That's a great tip. Worth the expense for it. If you're at a place where you have to pay for it. Yeah.
Joe: 14:30
Well what I would say about the rest of the stay and what people I would think would expect the most highest or should expect the most hospitals is that just the degree to which they check on you and the baby at all hours of the day and night. It's so often and it's always unannounced like they just kind of come in, check your vitals, check the baby. There's so many things, and people in and out. So it's not really a restful time. But you do feel like you're in, you know, the care of somebody in a time when you're vulnerable and you have no idea what you're doing still. So it's good to have that support system regardless. And then, you know, we go through things like, you know, delayed bathing and then, you know,
Becky: 15:10
Sure. Yeah. They asked me if we wanted to do delayed bathing and I was like, "Yeah, sure I'll do that. Keep the gunk on." I mean, they did, they did some pretty thorough time with him on his way out because he pooped. But whatever, so I don't know how effective the delayed bathing was.
Joe: 15:28
And then they explain, you know, things about like circumcision and then about the birth certificate and getting all the information. There's just people that come in and explain all of that, those things to you. And there's so many little, little things here and there that pop up. So we dealt with all of that and eventually it came time to bring him home and we brought them home. And we got home just in time for baseball season, opening day we got home.
Lisa: 15:51
Can you describe how you felt when you were leaving the hospital?
Becky: 15:55
Ready to go. I was ready.
Lisa: 15:57
Ready to go?
Becky: 15:57
Yeah, I was ready. I, well, at that point we had, because we had been there since Sunday night, so 30 hours of labor then we had, we were there all day Tuesday all day Wednesday. Yeah. So Thursday I was like, I'm I need to leave. Let's—can we leave now?
Joe: 16:13
And you'll be happy to know that we only had two visitors the whole time [inaudible]. They left in a reasonable amount of time. So we didn't have to kick anyone out. That was a topic in the birth class.
Becky: 16:26
Yeah. I mean like you know his family had been like, "Can we come to the hospital?" And I said, "Well, we're being induced. So quite frankly like I don't know the answer to that yet because I need to see how labor goes." So like Tuesday I was like, "Go away. Absolutely. Like no one—and like no one was clamoring, right? Telling people that he was born. He was born at five 30 in the morning. So if someone wanted to come on Tuesday they could have. But I was like, "No."
Joe: 16:52
But when we were clear on, we said "Just don't, you know, don't come today. Don't come tomorrow. Come on, whatever Wednesday, it'll be a much better day for you to come."
Lisa: 17:00
That's great. You were setting really clear boundaries, as much as you were able to, along the way.
Joe: 17:04
At the end when we were ready to go home—yes, we were ready to go and Becky forewent the wheelchair and we—and a nurse actually helped us go down like the back entrance.
Becky: 17:16
He had said like, "Oh like make sure you tell them," because like his father was picking us up to give us a ride home. He was like, "Make sure that you tell them like that you're like ready to go. Because it could take like an hour to like do the whole whatever." So I had told them and then like the nurse came in, like the pediatrician came in, gave us the all clear, like the nurse came in and was like, "Great." Like I had to get a booster of something. I can't remember. Did that. "Okay, you can go." And I was like, "All right, good." So I just like, we just like gathered our stuff and started leaving, and then a nurse like stopped us and was like, "Oh, are you waiting for exit?" Or like whatever. I said, "No. She said we could leave." She was like, "No, you can't leave." And I was like, "I'm fine!" The nurse came and she was like, "Oh well like technically like, yeah, like you can't carry anything. You can walk out but you can't carry anything." And I said, "Well we have so much s**t. Just like, carry the baby and we'll go out this back way and like we'll go." Because I was like, "I have—like I have to leave. I'm not waiting another hour for you."
Joe: 18:18
The nurse carried our baby.
Becky: 18:18
Like, the labor and delivery floor? Very organized, very wonderful. Recovery floor? Solid medium. I mean they're dealing with so much more stuff. They're in, they're out, they don't know. And I was like, "Oh God, I have to leave this hospital.
Joe: 18:40
We did get out. Where do you want us to go in terms of the wait and the clubfoot and all that stuff. Do you want us to answer any of those questions?
Becky: 18:42
I'll talk to that.
Lisa: 18:44
Any and all of that if you have time.
Becky: 18:46
This was, I mean, this was okay. I mean, I think one of the things when we were in the hospital, they, they said, you know, "First 24 hours, baby just kinda wants to sleep. Feed baby, get some rest. Like, do—do you." They were like, "We'll bring through the lactation consultant on that second day." Lactation consultant never came. We were very lucky. He latched really well on his own. We hadn't had any latch issues. He's a champion. All of that was fine.
Lisa: 19:19
That's so interesting. Since he was born so young, they often have sucking issues. So that's great.
Becky: 19:26
You know, things just kind of like, there were a couple of nurses that were very helpful, you know, kind of, you know.... I mean like I don't, I was very lucky. He's so small, right? Like he was so easy to manipulate. Fine. So yeah. So, but then as part of our checkout—not checkout, it's a hospital, that's a hotel...
Lisa: 19:49
Discharge.
Becky: 19:49
Thank you. I was like, what's the hospital word? For the discharge, the pediatrician came through and she had said, "Everything looks good. Like his bloodwork for all of the jaundice stuff, he's really low risk. Take him home, go to your pediatrician." Like we had scheduled our appointment. We would check out on Thursday, scheduled the appointment for Friday.
Joe: 20:13
Good burp!
Becky: 20:13
Good boy!
Lisa: 20:13
I heard that!
Becky: 20:15
He said, "You know, but you know, you should be okay." Then the lactation consultant somehow comes in as part of this discharge process. Like we're like literally ready at—like bags are packed, we're ready to walk out the door. And I guess it turns out that they hadn't had lactation consultants for those two days at all in the hospital. I don't know, maybe someone was sick. I have no idea. So anyway, this woman comes in as part of like our, our discharge and it's like, "Okay, well he looks really jaundice-y and he's yellow and he's such a small baby. He's never gonna stimulate your milkflow and you should start pumping right away. Dah dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And just basically scared the s**t out of me in a non-helpful way. I was really miffed because like she's coming in like—we're on day three with baby, you know what I mean? Day three and she's like, "Yeah, you should start pumping and then dah dah dah." I'm like, "No, like he's latching fine. The pediatrician said his blood work is okay. Like why?" Like yeah he's a little yellow but like he had only lost like 5% of his birth weight and they were like, "That's really good." And I was like pushing the, like I was over communicative about the fact that I had been on fluids for 30 hours, so he had been on fluids for 30 hours, like doing the like, "Okay. If he's losing a bunch of weight, it's probably water," like I was over-communicative about that, knowing that I needed to do that.
Becky: 21:40
So like they were like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." So yeah, the pediatrician was saying he'd only lost 5%. Then this woman is telling me that like he's never going to breastfeed correctly or I'm never going to get milk or whatever. And I was just like, "Aaaaaagh!"
Lisa: 21:51
Not helpful.
Becky: 21:53
It was not helpful. Because like I would've been like, "Okay" like, because again, like he was born before 37 weeks. I didn't have my pump, like, right? Like I didn't have any of that stuff. Why would I have, why would I have a breast pump right now? I, I didn't think I was going to need it, right? So anyway, not to mention like I don't know how to use it. What am I doing, right? I found it not helpful and it was a little bit stressful, but like we put it aside, I was like, "Well, at the end of the day I know he's latching well and I know that he's eating, so, okay, we're going to go home. I'm going home." Did that, took him to the pediatrician the next day. And by that point then he had lost like, yeah, like 11, 12%. So he had dipped below that 10% threshold. Then she was like, "Okay, here's what you're going to do. Start supplementing with some formula. We'll have you come back in." We were in on a Friday. She was like, "We'll have you come back in Saturday overnight to see how he does, see if he can, you know, like we want him to gain an ounce or something, right? Like overnight, see how we do. Put him by the window, do all the jaundice-y stuff. Then we go home. She was like, they gave us like samples of like formula. They were like, "Go home." And I was like, "Okay!" And then she was like, "And start pumping if you can" and I was like, "I don't have a pump!"
Lisa: 23:10
Because insurance won't let it be sent until the very end, right?
Becky: 23:17
They won't let it be sent until the very end. It was something that I was like, "Oh, it's on my to do list of things."
Joe: 23:21
Well, we also had no bottles.
Becky: 23:23
We had not a bottle in the house because we were not prepared to have our baby...three weeks early!
Joe: 23:29
So what I did was I walked to every pharmacy in the neighborhood looking for premie nipples and the formula that the pediatrician gave us, which none of them had. So I ended up having to get into an Uber and go to the target in Harlem across the bridge because they had premie nipples on the bottles that we needed and also the supplementation formula. So that was quite a Friday.
Becky: 23:54
Day four was really hard. It was really hard getting through that. Like I'm walking back from the pediatrician just like hormonally crying. You know what I mean?
Lisa: 24:03
It's that baby blues time where you have all the milk coming in, hormones and...
Becky: 24:08
There's a lot happening on day four. We hadn't slept in a week. Like there was a lot happening. It's like, yeah, Joe— champion—found us bottles. Because like, I don't know, he tried to eat from like a little nipple that came with the formula. He was just like spitting it up like he can't eat that.
Joe: 24:23
But it's amazing to me that the local pharmacies wouldn't have the premie nipple because it's—they're extra small flow and it's for babies just like this. And yeah...
Becky: 24:31
All of the pharmacies have like six month, like big bottles.
Joe: 24:34
Yeah, very surprising. But Target came through. And then, you know, so we started feeding him the formula that night and then the next day at the followup pediatrician visit. So he had gone down to like four pounds, like nine ounces. So then by when we went in the second day, he had gone up to like four pounds, 14 ounces. So he had gained like several ounces over that time. So that was a good sign. And he's still catching up honestly. I mean he's probably like seven pounds now.
Becky: 25:06
He's—oh, he's more than that. He's probably like seven and a half now. So like, yeah, like we've been doing just basically and like, it's probably like two things happened, right? One, he is small. So I think the like, while he latches and sucks, well, sure. Is he gonna latch and suck as strong as an eight pound baby? No. So you know what I mean? I think a couple of those things have probably contributed to probably some low supply. Right? We were supplementing from the beginning. I ordered my pump. That took about two weeks to get there.
Lisa: 25:37
Two weeks? Aaaaaagh.
Becky: 25:38
It took two weeks.
Lisa: 25:39
That's so not okay, in the day of Amazon prime, that's not okay. I'm not saying you should have ordered from Amazon. I'm just saying, like you know, we expect it to be overnight.
Becky: 25:52
It was insane to me because they were like, "Oh well just call your doctor." No, they were like, "We just need a, like a prescription from your doctor. Like the request," it was like "You don't have to do anything. We fax it dah dah dah dah dah." That—so like, I don't know. Anyway that took two weeks and like honestly like I wasn't ready to start pumping. We were doing so much stuff. I was just like...
Lisa: 26:14
It's exhausting.
Becky: 26:14
You know what I mean?
Lisa: 26:15
Oh, yeah.
Becky: 26:15
Like adding something else at that time would have been like one more stressful thing. Like we were just like, "All right, let's just focus on feeding the baby, doing the supplementing, making sure he's gaining weight, and I don't need to be super precious around like the fact that I'm giving my baby formula and all that stuff."
Lisa: 26:32
Right. Absolutely.
Becky: 26:34
I didn't—I was just like, "You know what, here's where we are. I feel fine about this." I had like a, I had a manual pump like the, like the hand pump or whatever.
Lisa: 26:44
The Haakaa ?
Becky: 26:44
No I had the Medela. So I had that, I tried doing that, but that was like still when I was like colostrum-y before my milk came in and I was like, "This is stupid. Why am I pumping for like five drops? This doesn't make sense. We're going to give him formula, make sure he's gaining weight. I'm not doing this at that point. Like it's taking him an hour to eat." Hey buddy.
Joe: 27:04
He's looking.
Becky: 27:07
Yeah, so I think, I mean that was challenging off the bat. Like it wasn't something that we, you know, were expecting to deal with. It was nothing that we were really prepared for. But we, I mean like we were fine. He's eating, he's gaining weight. So then we've been like going in like almost weekly to like make sure he's like checking, checking his weight and he's gaining on his curve. So that's good. But he's in the like third percentile.
Lisa: 27:33
My son always was, too, and he wasn't even born as, as early or, you know, as small.
Becky: 27:39
He always has still, like, latched well sucked well, eats well. Just, yeah, like maybe, yeah. So then I started pumping to be like, "Okay, can I catch my supply up to what he's eating now?" Because at that point he was eating like an ounce after every feed. So then I got to try to get eight more ounces and you know what I mean? And he's always been a baby, especially with the supplementation, he never wanted to eat every two hours. Like when we were supplementing with him, like he, he only wants to eat every two and a half, three hours. Big feeds, right? He doesn't want to eat for five minutes. He wants to eat for 40 minutes. Bigger meals less frequently. So yeah, like, I don't know, I think a couple of those things, there's just, and I think like—then my mom came just this past week. She was like, "Oh yeah. She was like, I wasn't able to breastfeed with you," either of her kids past like six weeks. So like, I don't know, like maybe genetically we just kind of have a lower supply. Because when I started pumping, like if I'm, if I'm pumping three or four times a day, I get like maybe six or seven ounces. You know what I mean? It's just like—and everything you Google on like, oh, like "increasing your milk supply" is like people that are exclusively pumping and they're pumping like 47 ounces and there's freezers full. And I'm just like, I just want to break even, right. My goal is to break even because feeding him and then supplementing him is like, that process takes like an hour and 15 minutes.
Lisa: 29:15
Sure. Yeah. Well and it's common to not be able to pump as much as your baby actually is able to extract, too. But that's—then that's frustrating if, if you're needing to pump a lot and feed the bottle a lot with...
Becky: 29:27
Yeah. So at this point like I really just kind of like made peace with life. Like at the pediatrician, like we did a weighted feed. Like he took, he transferred three ounces. I was like, "If he is transferring three ounces in a feed and then we're doing an ounce or two of formula on top of that, he weighs six pounds." What are you talking—like, I was like, "That's crazy. That should be enough. What are you talking about? That's a crazy amount of liquid.
Lisa: 29:55
It is for an itty bitty guy.
Becky: 29:57
I don't know. So yeah, I mean and that's, that's fine. Like I still, I still pump three, four times a day, just pull it off. We're still doing formula and that's just where we are.
Lisa: 30:09
Yeah. You're making the best choices for your own child and I always say "You do you," so that's great.
Becky: 30:17
Because like part of my thing with the pediatrician when she was like, "Well do you want to see, you could see a lactation consultant?" And I was like, "Yeah, I could," but I frankly, I don't, I don't know what I would consult about because like he latches well, he's eating well. Like all of the things, like I just, I'm not having like issues aside from what is probably just a low supply and I'm not going to hire someone to tell me to pump eight times a day to increase supply, because I can do that on my own, right? That's where we are. You know, I also don't want to pump eight times a day, like I'm a person...
Lisa: 30:48
I don't blame you at all.
Becky: 30:48
Like Joe got—took two weeks for paternity leave and that's it. You know what I mean? So when I'm home with him, like if I don't, if he's having a day where he doesn't want to be put down, I'm not pumping. But today he wanted to eat every hour and a half because he's doing like a growth spirt thing. So I'm like, "Yeah, that's fine. We'll just eat a lot. Same thing."
Joe: 31:11
Do you want to talk a little bit about the clubfoot?
Becky: 31:14
Oh yeah.
Joe: 31:14
So as you can see, he's wearing his little leg warmers right now.
Lisa: 31:18
Oh, it's so cute.
Joe: 31:22
So he's got casts on both legs, full leg casts. This is his third cast, one, one per week.
Lisa: 31:31
One per week. OK.
Joe: 31:33
And then, so like typically it's six to eight weeks, but he's been, they said that he's kind of mild—his case, so they anticipate probably like four to six, and we're hoping the low end because originally when he came out of the womb, they, you know, the, the nurses in the hospital and also then the orthopedist, a week later they both thought that his feet were flexible, more flexible than a more serious clubfoot.
Becky: 32:02
Yeah. So we went, we took him in, he was like a week and—like he was like a week and a half, like day 10 or something. Like he's so small, I don't know, like it's so crazy to take your like five pound baby, like, you know, Uber to the hospital. Like it's crazy. So took him to the orthopedist, like day 10, he was like, and this is the same person we had seen in the consult. So yeah, we took him and he was like, "Oh." He was like, "These are pretty flexible. They might be positional." So positional clubfoot is more, it's not actually like a structural issue. It could have very well been caused by the fact that he was breach for 30 some odd weeks. He was like, they're really, and then I was sharing like we had low amniotic fluid but we didn't have low amniotic fluid until the end, whatever. But he was breach for a long time. He was like, he was like "This could be positional." He was like, "We're not gonna do anything now," because usually they'll start casting right away even if they're a week or two old. He was like, "You know what, this could be positional. Go away, come back in four weeks and we'll see." Because the only thing like you don't want to know. So I was like "Okay bye!" I like took my baby and ran. Like I didn't even ask. I was like, "I don't want to know." Because like positional clubfeet is more like a lot of times it'll correct flexibility wise a lot on its own and then it's really treated with more physical therapy and stuff when they start walking and crawling and moving their actual little feet.
Joe: 33:23
So they had given us some false hope of this like situation where we avoid casts and boots and bars all together. But then when we went in for the follow up a few weeks later, they decided that no, they haven't been corrected on their own at all. And then at this point I think they think it's best to just do the cast because it's, they said it's mild clubfoot so we'll do the casts and it should respond well,
Becky: 33:47
And it is. Like he has, yeah, he has, because the clubfeet are, they're born like kind of turned in and then they also kind of rotate. But then, so he's always had a lot of flexibility this way, so his foot will turn like that. But he also has the, like the dorsiflexion this way and that's why he was like, "Oh, a lot of times with clubfeet you won't even have, like they won't have that dorsiflexion at all." So he has quite a bit of flexibility, that already with just the kind of three casts that he's had or just they're, they're responding really well. So treatment is still the same. Still the bracing until they're four or five, like all of that stuff is the same, even if it's a mild case. Hopefully, because there is such a high recurrence rate with clubfeet, if you're not doing like the proper treatment and sometimes if it's super complicated, recurrence rate is like 30 percent. It's really high. But that is taking into consideration like the wide spectrum of clubfeet, you know what I mean?
Joe: 34:44
Right. And also that's also taking into consideration not treating it properly. If you have to get, it's like wearing braces on your teeth, you have to do it and you have to do everything.
Becky: 34:50
Well like if you start later. You know what I mean? Like if you're starting with an older baby, you know, they're less flexible. They, you know what I mean? They start to harden up. Right now he's...
Lisa: 35:00
Very pliable right now.
Joe: 35:03
He's so young now that he's not really conscious of what's happening. We were, when we were in for the third cast, there was a baby next to us. She wasn't more like two years old and she was screaming bloody murder when he was, they were taking the cast off because she knew exactly what was happening and the mother explained that she can only start late, the, with the casting and everything treatment because of health insurance. Otherwise, I'm sure they would have done it much earlier, but they couldn't. So they started when she was older and it's best to do it when they're younger and like his age, you know, just a couple of weeks out of the womb, just start casting and it'll, it won't be in his mind, you know, he won't remember it. And they say it's harder for mom and dad because it's harder for us to hold him and change him because it's harder to get around the diaper with the cast. But, you know, it's the best thing to start earlier. So
Becky: 35:52
Yeah, the first cast was like a little emotional, but that's normal, like, he's so tiny.
Becky: 35:57
But now he's like halfway through. He's probably over halfway through and it's, we've been, it's been fine. And, when, when the casts are, when they determine the casts are done, then we'll get the little boots that are connected with the bar and you know, he'll wear that for 23 hours a day for about four months. And then after that four month period, it'll just be naps and nighttime for three to four to five years. I fear having a toddler that is like, "I don't want to wear this at night," but that we'll worry about that when we get there.
Joe: 36:29
Yeah. So whatever. Add it to the list, that's my stance on that. And I'm like, "Sure. And?"
Joe: 36:38
Right, but, but we'll do it, because, you know, we're good parents and we want him to have the best treatment and it's important to just be consistent and put it on every day and not skip a day. Because as she said, you know, we don't want a recurrence or anything like that. Let's just be one and done, just finish the treatment once and that's it. So yeah, to, to backtrack, it's just like a, you know, when you first hear that, "Oh, your baby has clubfoot," it's like, "Oh my God, this is terrible. What are we going to do?" And once you go through all the, the research and then you start the treatment and everything, it's really not a dire situation by any means. It's just some, it's an, it's an added challenge for an already challenging time of first parenthood. You know, I mean, it's already challenging to add one little more wrinkle into it. It's not ideal, but it's, it's totally doable. And if we could do it, anybody could do it.
Lisa: 37:34
Well, one thing I so admire about both of you—and I feel like it started in just getting your intake form for class, Becky, and then you, Joe, too, both of you—I feel like you, you have approached everything with such a so much just like, "Let's roll with it and let's be flexible. Let's be pragmatic," which is just so important for parents to, to hear that wisdom and see that wisdom. There was, when we did the affirmation cards. I don't know if you remember this. I can't remember the exact wording of the one that you chose Joe, but I remember you specifically. You said something along the lines of what I was just saying, I've just like all of this is very unexpected. Oh, maybe it was, "I can navigate the unexpected if need be" or something like that, wasn't it?
Joe: 38:20
That was my card.
Lisa: 38:20
Yeah. And I was thinking when you said that I thought they've already, you know, come across a lot of unexpected things, or at least one big unexpected thing across the journey. And so I just admire that about the both of you.
Joe: 38:32
Thank you so much. Thank you. And little did we know that it would continue, rolling with the punches with low fluid and all that, but yeah, it's really just a, you know, you just gotta do it. You know, you don't, you don't have time to think sometimes, you just gotta–it's like instincts take over. You just do it.
Becky: 38:51
Dr. Talati said a very similar thing. Like she came in, she actually visited us at the hospital, like while we were still there. And I just, it was like part of her like admitting day when she sees patients uptown, she'd like stop by and she was like, "Yeah," she was like, "I'm just, I'm so impressed with you guys because you had a couple of really challenging situations." She was like, "A lot of times when I have patients that are coming in with, 'I want to have a natural birth and my doula' and whatever, like they hold so tightly to like one thing that it's really hard for them to like let go." There are a lot of people, I mean, again, like people have this like maybe this grand plan or this vision. And like it's fine to have that. But that's just, again, like who we are as people. Like sure. Like I just want to have a good trusted team. And you start with that and then like I didn't, I never had to have moments where I don't trust my, I don't trust what my doctor is saying or I'm second guessing what they're doing. Because I was very clear about like, "I'm a part of this. Like, let's have a conversation. I'll ask questions, let's move"—all that kind of stuff. So I think, you know, not everyone is that kind of person. So that's hard. Like it's hard to teach that. Like you can like listen to that and nod.
Lisa: 40:07
That's true.
Becky: 40:08
"Oh I'm doing my plan. Look, it's written on both sides."
Joe: 40:11
Right. But some degree of flexibility is helpful.
Becky: 40:16
That was important. Like that is, that just is...I think if we had tried to hold onto something that was just not going to be realistic, it would have been more stressful. So yeah.
Lisa: 40:27
Yeah. And that's a huge thing in becoming a parent. And however it goes, it's just harder for some people to learn that lesson of...be flexible.
Becky: 40:36
It's the doctors, too. Looking for doctors that, like, if they're talking to you in that way where like you're, it's, it is communication and not just like, "Here's how we do it and dah dah dah, dah, dah." Because like when we were, when she was saying she wanted to induce us before 37 weeks, she was like "Listen," she was like, "What you have now is a happy, healthy baby, and you can start labor with a happy healthy baby. If we wait a week to get to 38 weeks or whatever," she was like, "you're not going to gain anything. The baby's fine. He can be born. Like everything is going to be fine. You're not going to gain anything by being in the womb for that extra week. But something–he may, something might go wrong. Do you know what I mean? Like you're just waiting for something to go wrong." And I was like, "No." Like I know induction is going to be forever. So I'd rather start him through a 30 hour labor when he's happy and healthy, than put him through an induction when he's already showing stress or whatever, because then instantly you're going to wind up with a C-section and move on with your life. So I mean again it's like if that had happened, it would've happened. Like whatever. It would have been plan Z. But I think, yeah, that's, that's the only way. Like we've gone through it, like Audrey, our doula, like we had a couple of postpartum visits and she was like, "Do you want to talk about your birth? Like do you want to help process that?" And I was like, "Honestly, like, it feels like kind of like any big project. You did it, it's done. I feel ultimately good about–yes, I had to like sacrifice these three things. We turned left three times. Like ultimately I feel good about it because I felt good about my team. Like I have a happy, healthy baby and okay. I'm just ready to like do this now."
Lisa: 42:29
Is there anything, Joe, that you wanted to share about the journey into parenthood through labor or any of these first few weeks that you haven't gotten to share yet?
Joe: 42:39
Well, I would just say that first of all, parenthood is great. It's awesome. I love it. I love it. I love our baby. It was hard for me in the first few days after we brought him home because I could tell that he wasn't as soothed by me as he was by his mom. So that kind of gave me my own challenge of trying to figure out what I needed to do to calm him down at certain times when mom needed to rest. The doula was helpful in that regard, too, because she kind of taught me to do some different movements, including like squats, so I'm getting some exercise. Big bounces. So we bounce him, I bounce him a lot, and me getting comfortable with him on my own, when mom is sleeping—I feel like for moms, it's so instinctual, they just go into mom mode but then for dads it's like, "Oh, what the hell am I supposed to do?"
Becky: 43:37
It's all on Google, too. You're like, "How do you know this?" I'm like, "I dunno. I got Google. You have Google. Come on. Did you read the book?
Joe: 43:37
I'm a leaner by doing, not so much by our research, so I like to do things. So I, I just jumped in and I became an expert diaper changer quickly. That was, that was the big thing is just trying to soothe him when, when I was the only person available. So I feel much more confident in doing that now. And also you just have to be extremely patient. You have to remember that this the baby,
Becky: 44:12
With me. He has to be patient with me.
Joe: 44:14
With your partner and patient...
Becky: 44:15
Because I'm the worst.
Joe: 44:15
And patient with the baby, because you have to remember that the baby doesn't know. It doesn't mean to do anything. It's just doing what it needs to do to survive, crying and letting you know it's hungry. So you can't take anything out on baby or, or partner, you have to be extremely patient and–which is hard because the sleep deprivation is real. Moreso for Becky because of all the feeding and pumping at all hours. But that's where I jump in and do all the housework to balance that out. So I'm like basically, you know, cleaning every day and doing the laundry and cleaning the dishes and cooking meals and all that stuff.
Lisa: 44:50
Yay. I love to hear that.
Joe: 44:54
Probably 95% of all of that.
Becky: 44:56
100 percent.
Joe: 44:56
I'm like a monster, I just can't stop.
Lisa: 44:59
Go, Joe!
Joe: 44:59
But, you know, that's, that's what I can do because I know she's, she's feeding and she's exhausted and her nipples hurt, and all that stuff. What I can do is maybe not feed him all the time–I feed him with the bottle sometimes–but what I can do is help out around here and make sure that our apartment isn't a disaster. So, and that's important as well because we respond well to an orderly environment. So, yeah, that that would be my advice to a lot of people is just to be patient and you know, the, the soothing will come for dads and, and be willing to help out and to anticipate the needs. You don't always, you don't always need to be asked to do things. I still do need to be asked sometimes, but I try to anticipate their needs as well.
Becky: 45:50
I'm very specific and calm with my requests as much as possible. Sometimes when he gets home from work at like 4:35, I'm like, "Here's the baby, I need a break. Bye!" That's it.
Joe: 46:01
Right. Yeah. And...
Becky: 46:04
"I'm gonna go in this room. I'm gonna close the door."
Joe: 46:04
One of the lines on the Birth Matters, one of the lines from the Birth Matters class was "Don't take it personally."
Lisa: 46:12
And I love that you carried that over into parenthood because I think in the, in the class I was talking about in labor, but it's so smart to carry that into parenthood.
Joe: 46:22
It's applied several times. It's just the way it is. So we're doing okay, though.
Becky: 46:28
We also started going to a like a mom group here in Astoria like once a week. Like I started going at like I think four or five weeks.
Lisa: 46:37
Great.
Becky: 46:38
Right here on... Dawn Chorba.
Lisa: 46:40
Yes! I love Dawn. Yeah.
Becky: 46:41
She's wonderful. So yeah, she had like a weekly like group that was kind of coming through and I was like "Yeah, like my baby's like four or five weeks, but she lives like four blocks away from us. I was like, yeah!" That's been nice. Like all of the other babies were a lot older but it was still like nice to like go once a week and just like talk about everything you're going through and I think that's really helpful.
Lisa: 47:06
Yeah. Oh good. I'm glad you plugged in there.
Becky: 47:09
Even continuing, yeah, like that sense of like community or just like conversation, again, like nothing is gonna likely to be an answer or a solution to whatever problem you're having, but even just talking about it is...
Lisa: 47:20
For sure.
Joe: 47:20
Any support system you can find is good.
Becky: 47:24
Someone to tell you, like, "You're doing great." Like, "Your baby's eating and gaining weight and that's it! Like, he's pooping and peeing and he's alive!" So.
Lisa: 47:35
All right, well any last things you want to share before you sign off?
Joe: 47:39
Just thank you for helping prepare us for what came to pass and, you know, we really enjoyed our time in Birth Matters and regret not being in the class photo at the end.
Becky: 47:54
We'll see you at the reunion.
Lisa: 47:56
Yeah, I hope you can come and if not, there'll be another one hopefully in September.
Joe: 48:02
Right, cool.
Lisa: 48:02
Thank you again for sharing and I hope to see you soon.
Joe: 48:06
Thank you.
Lisa: 48:06
Bye!
Becky: 48:06
Bye!
Lisa: 48:08
Well, that wraps it up for Becky and Joe's firstborn story. Weren't baby Elliot's hiccups just the cutest thing? I just want to comment briefly on the topic that Joe brought up regarding boundaries. This time in your life is one of the best times to establish healthy boundaries in your relationships. I love how Joe talked about being clear with people in their life who wanted to visit baby as to when and if that was welcome or not. Talk with your partner prenatally about which friends and family are those who will help you in postpartum and be a great support. I call them your "PJ" or "comfy" friends, or those friends you could wear PJ's around, the kind of friends who will bring you a meal, do your dishes, clean your toilet ,or help you with things you just don't have time or energy for right after birth.
Lisa: 48:55
Those are the kinds of friends and family you need supporting you at this time in your life. What you don't need are those visitors who you'll have to entertain or play host or hostess to. If those people must visit, it's best to keep those visits brief, and give them a subtle (or not-so-subtle) cue when it's time for them to leave, which is usually within 15 minutes or so in the early weeks after birth. But if someone's coming over to help, they can stay as long as they want. If you'd like to learn more about clubfoot, you can visit the show notes for this episode at birthmattersshow.com for links to some resources. Before we get our sneak peek for the next episode, here's something to ponder: Birth is unknowable and mysterious, but you can navigate the unknown. Questions to ask yourself this week: How do you normally handle unpredictable situations in life? Are there ways you or your partner can grow in handling the unknown with flexibility and pragmatism? How can you adapt to change with both calm and confidence? Here's a peek into what we have in store for next week.
Amy (Teaser): 50:02
You know, at a certain point though, I was like a little annoyed because they ask you–several people ask you multiple times the same question. So it's kind of at times annoying, but at that point, like if they had asked me those questions seven hours later, I wouldn't have been able to really tolerate that. But I have also noticed, because I work in the hospitality industry, my tolerance for bulls**t is pretty high. It's like, whatever. I can have the chaos around me and keep my center. It's totally fine.
Lisa: 50:32
Until next time, thanks for listening to the Birth Matters Podcast and remember, you can navigate the unknown. ---END---
