Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 119 - Rapid Arrival: An Unmedicated Hospital Birth After Switch to Midwife

Upper West Sider Diana wanted a unmedicated birth and prepared by hiring doulas and switching from a large OB practice to a hospital midwife in an OB practice that she felt much more comfortable with. As she approaches her due time and her provider starts bringing up scheduling an induction at 40 weeks, she does all the things to try to go into labor. At 39 weeks, her water ruptures spontaneously (and loudly) while sleeping and she has an extremely fast labor, giving birth in only about 4 hours. Josh joins Diana for their baby’s birth story and shares how glad he was they had doulas to help them know they needed to go to the hospital far sooner than they had expected.

Resources:

Sponsor links:

*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.

Episode Topics:

  • Feeling strong pressure from family to start family

  • Had a Mirena and liked it

  • Felt stressful when she got pregnant, really sick around 5 weeks, complicated feelings

  • Lived in Austria for years, very different maternal health care system

  • Mother and sister-in-law had unmedicated births

  • Initial care was a large OB practice that was highly rated but didn’t like her care, didn’t treat Josh well

  • Wanted to change providers and with some pushback they did; she liked them but got the sense that they wouldn’t be supportive of unmedicated birth

  • Started interviewing doulas

  • On the podcast, loved the tip to hire doula before hiring care provider

  • Hard to find a midwife

  • Going back to 11 weeks, having trouble peeing, they thought it was a UTI

  • Had a girls trip to Chicago; while there, could not pee and eventually started having kidney pain

  • Went to the ER, catheterize her and get tons of fluid

  • Then she became incontinent (urine) and had to have a foley balloon attached to her

  • Josh had to learn how to catheterize Diana

  • Due to lack of attentive care in that experience, she decided to switch to another care provider

  • Found a midwife in an OB practice and loved her bedside manner

  • Wish she’d switched earlier

  • Around week 16 she started having less morning sickness

  • Couldn’t eat any green vegetables or smell mouthwash for weeks and wished she had taken diclegis 

  • Suddenly gained 20 lbs in just a couple of weeks

  • Midwife warns her about carbs and the gestational diabetes test coming

  • Passed glucose test

  • 32 week ultrasound scan, they projected baby to be nearly 9 lbs at 40 weeks

  • Midwife very concerned about big baby

  • Diana very bothered by this; doula Christine offers her online induction class “Induction 101”

  • She wanted to try everything to go into labor before being pressured to induce - evening primrose oil, red raspberry leaf tea, acupuncture 

  • Went in for 39 week checkup and they said they could touch baby’s head

  • Feeling crampy afterwards, going for acupuncture - baby moves a lot during it

  • Loses mucus plug on Friday

  • Saturday morning, cramps go away

  • Walking around Bethesda fountain at Central Park 

  • Climbed 8 flights of stairs to their apartment, walked around 5 miles that day

  • Ordered spicy food

  • Went to bed and woke up 1:43am water broke very audibly

  • She was GBS positive

  • Josh did not hear it break; they get up

  • Empty dishwasher, trying to tidy up

  • Josh starts getting shower ready for her to labor in

  • Contractions start; he texts doula

  • They’re very strong and very close together

  • Diana has to vomit; doula tells them they need to go to hospital

  • They throw things together, order an Uber and driver not very nice about her being in labor

  • Crawls into the hospital on all 4s, literally; they take the elevator up

  • Vomits the spicy meal in the hall

  • The nurse gets agitated trying to get her in the wheelchair and tells Diana to move somehow to triage

  • Diana pushes the wheelchair to triage

  • Josh fills out paperwork and texts doula

  • A doctor comes in and does pelvic exam, 9cm, fully effaced, +1 station

  • Christine arrives and somehow manages to get into triage

  • She looks after Josh’s need to go to the bathroom

  • Being grilled with a gazillion medical questions

  • Midwife magically appeared even though she wasn’t on call, has high energy and Diana asks her to bring it down

  • Christine encourages Diana to wait to push until she felt ready

  • They pressure her to get in the bed; she doesn’t want to but does

  • They get the squat bar out

  • Contractions in pushing were manageable

  • Pushing itself was challenging for her as she didn’t feel the urge to bear down

  • There was concern about the baby on the part of the midwife and nurse

  • She requested no coached pushing

  • They had her get on her back

  • Small 1st degree tear

  • She was very concerned about the fast birth and 3rd stage/risk of bleeding too much that she didnt’ focus on baby

  • Josh took the baby and did skin-to-skin

  • Sex was a surprise

  • She wanted to take a good look at the placenta

  • Born early marathon Sunday

  • Josh went to get bagel & lox and then went home

  • Bris in their home, small gathering

  • If it was a boy, no visitors for first 8 days, if girl 14 day

  • Pre-war building with no washer/dryer in their unit

  • Hired postpartum doula Sophia who was wonderfully helpful

  • While she felt a lot of anxiety in pregnancy, she felt a lot more chill in postpartum

  • Breastfeeding - line up resources

  • Tongue tie corrected

  • Christine’s lactation prep class and learned about baby blues around day 3-4, expecting tears and/or sweat

  • Silverettes were so soothing and great for her nipples

  • They’re glad they got the frenectomy done; it seemed to really help

  • She loved the tip from Christine’s class about delaying the pediatrician ~3-5 day visit while getting a weighted feed with IBCLC

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Today I have with me Diana and Josh who were clients of doulas in our collective in East River Doula Collective. Would you please just take a few moments to introduce yourselves. 

Diana: Sure. So I'm Diana. and I've got my husband Josh here with me. And we had our baby boy, Will, exactly four months ago. And we live on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Yeah, and I guess I'll hand it over to you, Josh.

Joshua: Hi, I'm Josh and I'm really happy to be here. 

Lisa: Thank you. Welcome again. So would you please just share whatever you'd like to share about your conception and or pregnancy journey. What are the different ways that you prepared for becoming a parent and for giving birth?

Beginning of Pregnancy

Diana: Yeah, absolutely. Josh and I have been married for a couple of years. And I think at least speaking for myself, I was getting some pressure from my family members to start a family and I was getting into that territory of pushing my age a little bit. I was 33 and my mom was like, you really should get started on trying to have a family.

But I was really waiting for all the stars to align. And of course, there's no perfect time to have a baby, but there were a couple of things I wanted to get out of the way. I wanted there to be a Covid vaccine for infants, cuz I'd seen all my friends navigating parenthood through the pandemic and it just seemed really stressful.

And I was waiting for my work contract to become a bit more established, to find the right time.

I had a Mirena. I'm a big fan of Mirena. I've had a couple of them in my lifetime and I got it taken out in December and by February I was pregnant. So it was a pretty quick trying to conceive experience. But I think, what I do wanna share about that is, we had been actively trying to have a family, but I remember as soon as I found out I was pregnant, it was really an overwhelming feeling.

And I got really nervous. Like it wasn't this joyous, oh, I'm so excited that I'm gonna have a baby. It was really kind of anxiety provoking. And I'm sharing that because I've never really heard a lot of people talk about that moment of finding out you're pregnant, when you really are wanting to have a family.

And so that was a little bit stressful for me and then right away, I felt great for the first couple of weeks and as soon as week five hit, I was extraordinarily sick. I just had all day terrible nausea, and it just made me really have a lot of complicated feelings about the baby.

And my friend was trying to say to me, oh, why don't you look for nursery furniture or a shop for baby clothes? And that to me was just like really off-putting because I just felt really overwhelmed by the whole experience because physically I was just so under the weather, and then there was like this huge impending change happening to our lives, and it really freaked me out initially. Yeah, so I wanted to share that. 

And so I was healthy, the pregnancy was fine.

Struggle to Find an OB

One kind of interesting fact about myself is I had spent my entire adult life, or actually all of my life after college, living in Austria, where they have a really different model of maternal care.

And in fact, I once even got to tour a labor and delivery floor. And they have all kinds of contraptions and balls and all sorts of things to help women go through labor. And it's just really different than how things function here in the United States. And my mom had two natural births, she's very like anti-drugs, my sister-in-law had had a natural birth, so I had always been interested in really not having a medicated birth. And in Austria, some women have epidurals, but it's not nearly as common as it is here in the United States. So that was always in the back of my mind.

And because I had moved to New York City from Vienna in 2018, I hadn't really established a good OB care or OB practice. I had found an OBGYN I liked, but when she went to remove my IUD, I could tell she was pregnant. And sure enough, by the time I went in for my first prenatal appointment, she was on maternity leave.

So I was assigned to another doctor in the practice, and it was a large university affiliated practice. Really highly ranked so we went, we were in this big practice. We went in for our first prenatal appointment, and I was really sick and I just didn't jive with the provider.

I just, I was feeling really crappy. She didn't seem very sympathetic to my state. She said she could prescribe me some Diclegis, which is that anti-nausea, supposed to help with anti-nausea and morning sickness, but,yeah, I just didn't jive with her.

I felt like she didn't treat Josh very well. Like he asked a question and I asked, I remember asking if I could wear nail polish, and Josh was such a supportive, kind husband, and he jotted down her answer. And then she said something scoffed at him, like, oh, are you really writing this down? And I just did not like her at all. Yeah. I really wasn't into the experience. I didn't jive with her. And to the point where I was like, really, upset. I didn't wanna go back to the practice. And I called and I asked to change providers and they made me give a reason why, and it was this whole experience.

So I felt like crap cuz I was pregnant, and I didn't like the provider, I didn't feel comfortable, and eventually they managed to switch me to a different provider in the practice who was actually really nice. But, as things progressed, I remember at one of my prenatal appointments asking the doctor, just kind of trying to feel her out, how many of her patients had unmedicated labors?

And she said, oh, it's very, very, very rare. And if you want to, just make sure you labor at home as long as possible before coming into the hospital. So I started realizing I don't think this is going to be the practice for me.

Hiring Doulas and Switching Providers

And around that time was when I had started interviewing doulas and I'd interviewed my doulas, Christine and Jaime.

And in the initial interview with the doulas, they, right away, before I had even hired them, they could sense my discontent with my provider and really encouraged me to switch providers. And I wasn't sure I wanted to switch. And I know a lot of, or some people who think about switching go through this, am I too far along? And one tip I heard from listening to one of the birth story podcasts was that you should hire your doulas before finding your provider. And I think that's like such an amazing tip because the doulas have such an immense amount of knowledge, particularly hyper-local knowledge.

Like which providers in your city are good, which ones aren't so good, which hospitals are good. And New York City is a completely different beast. There's so many hospitals, there's so many providers and I really wish I had hired them even sooner, cuz they would've been able to walk me through that process.

But they were recommending that if I wanted an unmedicated birth, that maybe I'd be better off seeing a midwife. And they had recommended a couple of different midwife practices, but, due to insurance issues, I really wanted to go in-network.And I was also really surprised just Googling myself, seeing that so many hospitals in New York City don't even have midwives, which is really surprising.

And many practices don't have midwives. It's just not a very common thing. And also around this time I had started watching The Business of Being Born and I was getting into Ina May, and I was realizing that was really probably the model of care that I wanted.

Pregnancy Complication

I'm just gonna take a step back because I wanted to talk about an issue in my pregnancy. Aside from being really sick, I had this weird pregnancy complication that arose around, I think it was around week 11. So one of my friends, who lives in Austria, was planning to come to the States and we were planning a girls weekend in Chicago, just one night at a nice hotel.

And we were gonna hang out, have a girls' night, and I had pushed the trip back because I was pregnant and I was feeling really sick and I managed to muster up enough energy to fly out and meet her. So we had postponed, and by week 11, my nausea had waned a little bit. I still didn't feel great, but I was able to get out of the house.

And so I flew to Chicago to meet my friend and we were supposed to have this great weekend. I met her, and right before I left to go on the trip, about two days prior to the trip, I noticed that I was having some issues peeing, where I just really couldn't, I sometimes I wasn't able to get pee out and I informed my primary care provider.

I didn't even call the OB practice because they were just so not helpful. And this is back when I was at my first OB practice. And so I remember needing to seek prenatal care from my primary care provider, which in retrospect was a good clue that I really did not feel comfortable at all with my provider.

And so my primary care provider recommended that I come in and give a urine sample because she thought it might be a potential UTI. So I gave a urine sample and I got the results back before I flew to Chicago. And everything was fine, nothing was wrong. So she said just not to worry about it, and I wasn't all that concerned. 

So I went to Chicago. I had a great day with my friend and we had 5:00 PM spa appointments. And I remember around two o'clock, by, around two o'clock that day, I had to go to the bathroom and I tried to go pee and I couldn't get any pee out. We were hanging out by the pool, like chit chatting.

And all of a sudden, as the day went on, I realized I just could not go to the bathroom.And then I thought, maybe this is some weird like psychological, bathroom stage fright issue, where like all of a sudden I'm tensing up and can't pee in public, which is never an issue that I've had before.

Lisa: I love that term. Bathroom stage fright. 

Diana: Yeah. So it was really weird. But it became like a real problem to the point where I couldn't make my spa appointment, like my facial, because I wasn't gonna be able to, I could not go to the bathroom. So I finally said to my friend, look, you go ahead to your appointment, I'm gonna go up to the hotel room, like maybe I just need some privacy and try to pee.

So I couldn't go. I like drew a bath of warm water. I remember I got on all fours in the bathtub and I just could not get pee out. And then it got really freaky because I got kidney pain, so I started realizing I had a real problem and this wasn't just some weird psychosomatic issue.

There was a real physiological problem going on with my body. So I could have alerted the hotel concierge cuz we were staying at the nice hotel, but I was kind of embarrassed, it was just this weird situation, and so I ended up looking up the nearest ER, which happened to be like three blocks down Michigan Avenue.

And I put on my trench coat and I walked out the door and went to the ER. And of course, ERs take forever. So I was like pacing the ER hunched over with extraordinary kidney pain, trying to pee and like little tiny trickles of pee would come out, but like nothing. And it was just like this complete nightmare.

And finally, I was seen and these sweet, wonderful nurses who were like 20 years old, I'll never forget these poor girls, had to catheterize me, and I peed an entire wine bottle. They said it was equivalent to a wine bottle full of pee. And then the ER doctor came in and the baby was fine, they did an ultrasound. 

And the ER doctor was like, we don't really know what's going on. You probably just had a UTI. They gave me some IV antibiotics, but then I was incontinent, so I couldn't hold any pee in after this whole thing, which was really terrifying, like thinking I was now incontinent.

So, they said the only thing they could do was give me a Foley catheter. So for those of you who don't know, it's a pee bag. So I had to have a catheter with a bag of urine strapped to my leg in order to fly back to New York the next day. So I was wearing, I wasn't showing yet in my pregnancy, so I wasn't wearing maternity wear yet.

And I was wearing skinny jeans, but I couldn't put my jeans back on because I had this bag of urine strapped to my leg. And the poor nurses were like, we could look in the closet, see if there are some spare pants around for you. Sometimes, like there's social workers who have clothing donations. And they ended up, couldn't find anything, and so they gave me a pair of paper scrubs. So I had to walk back around midnight to this five star hotel, like wearing paper scrubs and I was just so miserable with this pee bag. And my friend, she was so nice. She ran out and got me underwear, Depends, and then got me a pair of sweatpants so I could hide the Foley when I flew home the next day, but it was just like such a miserable experience. And so when I got back to New York, oh, and the other thing is that with the turbulence, the Foley would hit my genitalia, which was not a wonderful, pleasant feeling. And same, I remember like when we landed and I got into a taxi to get home, like the bumpy roads and on the New York City highways were just like, it was really just this awful experience.

And I just felt just terrible about the whole thing and was really overwhelmed, like, what's happening to me? Am I gonna have to have a Foley my whole pregnancy, or for the rest of my life? It was really alarming. The one really good thing about the OB practice I was in is since it was a large university hospital, I was able to be seen immediately the next morning by a gynecology urology specialist.

Diagnosis for Complication

And she was really nice and Josh and I went over there and she brought us into the office, and she was like, okay, I've got good news for you and bad news for you. And she said, the good news is that this is a temporary issue you're going to have. And she informed me that I have this condition where my uterus tilts the opposite direction of most women's.

She said that currently, my pregnancy, the baby was putting pressure on my urethra and obstructing the urine from coming out. But she said this was only going to go on for a couple of more weeks, it would go away as the baby grew larger and moved further up into my abdomen.

But she said the bad news is this could very well happen again. So she took out the Foley, and so I didn't have to walk around with the pee bag anymore, but she said the issue was that I may end up having to need to be catheterized again. And she said, if this happens during working hours, no problem, call up the practice, come on over and we will catheterize you. But, she said, if it's after hours, we don't want you having to go to an ER because you're gonna have to wait forever. And so she looked at me and Josh and she said, are either of you medical professionals? And I remember Josh and I looked at each other and we were like, Nope, we definitely are not.

And she motioned my husband Josh over to me while I'm up with the stirrups. And I guess you can probably tell better than I can, Honey, the story.

Joshua: She basically, she motioned me over and she showed me how to insert a catheter into Diana's urethra, if this was necessary to happen. And then I did it once and I don't think we actually had to then do it when we went home. Like the issue resolved itself. And I would just add that, like before, she said, I have good news and I have bad news, she was very clear. There's nothing wrong with the baby, the baby is fine.

So she was very she was very nice, very sweet. And she could see the concern on our faces. 

Diana: She took out a mirror and she was like, see this hole? Not that hole, this hole. And so it was instructing both of us on how to do this. So yes, that was a wonderful highlight of our marriage, I would have to say. 

Lisa: I was gonna say, I bet, Josh, that you never dreamed when you took your vows that you'd be learning to catheterize your wife. 

Joshua: No, I did not think I would do that. But, it's, I guess it's a good skill to know if we ever have another child. 

Diana: Yes. And so it happened one more time actually.

I was working from home and it happened and I called the practice and they wouldn't call me back. And it was like an emergent situation. No one called me back. I was really perturbed by the whole thing and I was like, this is an emergency. I don't wanna go to the ER.

So I figured out, like I got out a mirror and I did it myself, and that was it. And it wasn't actually that big of a deal. And then it was over and I never had to do it again. But that was like the final straw where I decided I really needed to find a different provider. Like this is not suiting me.

Finding a Midwife

So I ended up switching. I realized I wanted to be under the care of a midwife. And I ended up finding a midwife within an OB practice, and I remember meeting her and she was just so lovely. She had such a bubbly, wonderful personality and she really, you could tell, really cared for her patients.

She spent like an hour and a half with us, the first time she met us. She was just so kind and throughout the entire pregnancy, she always responded to messages right away. And the way the practice worked, it was whoever was on call that night would be the person delivering, but as I advanced further in my pregnancy, she told me that it was really important to her to try to deliver me, and she would try to do her best.

And I just felt like I got really wonderful care from her. I just thought her bedside manner was excellent. And I felt really comfortable with her for most of the time that I saw her. So I'm really happy that I did switch practices. And again, I encourage anyone who, if you have any sort of weird feeling about your provider, like just switch, you can switch even at 39 weeks.

It's never, ever too late to switch. And I wish that I had switched earlier. 

Morning Sickness and Other Symptoms

But I guess just a couple more things about my pregnancy. My morning sickness went on like past the first trimester. But, I would say by the end of week 16 I started feeling a bit better and I was able to start exercising.

I couldn't eat a green vegetable for three solid months. I could not even have Josh use mouthwash cause the smell of the mouthwash on his breath at night made me wanna vomit. It was just like crippling nausea. And I think, another lesson learned for myself is to be less of a martyr.

Next time I would just take the Diclegis. I just, I was scared I would hurt the baby, all these things. And next time if I do have another pregnancy, I'll just not suffer as much. 

Yeah, so I started feeling better and we went on a babymoon, back to Austria, my old stomping grounds and Italy.

And while we were there, I was just stuffing my face cuz I couldn't eat anything for three months and I lost weight, like my first trimester. But when I got back I had gained nearly 20 pounds and about like less than three weeks. So my midwife was really shocked and told me that I had to be really careful because my next appointment would be the glucose test and told me I couldn't eat any carbs.

And that wasn't really a great thing to hear as a pregnant person being told that I wasn't supposed to be eating carbs. But I was also really scared that I would fail the glucose test. And she warned me, she's like, if you fail then you need to do the three hour one, and you really don't want to get into that situation.

So I spent the next two weeks dieting while I was pregnant, like exercising, walking five miles a day and just dieting to try to get my weight back in check. And then I passed the glucose test and things were fine. But I did start gaining weight and I ended up gaining by the end of my pregnancy, I had gained towards the higher end of the recommended weight gain.

So I gained like exactly 35 pounds at the end of my pregnancy.

Midwife Expresses Concern Over Baby’s Size

But because of this, and I don't know if there's really any correlation at all, cause I read up a lot about it, but at the 32 week ultrasound scan, they projected the baby at 40 weeks to be, what was it, honey? It was like eight pounds.

Joshua: It was like a high eight pounds. 

Diana: High eight pounds by 40 weeks, which is not even that large, but my midwife was very concerned about having this big baby. And that's when she, at 32 weeks, recommended that we get an induction on the books at 40 weeks because of my quote, big baby problems.

I'm saying I'm calling that big baby problems. And I was really bothered by this whole thing because my biggest fear, especially after watching The Business of Being Born, was getting Pitocin. Like I did not want an induction, and I did not want Pitocin. Because for me, I was really set on having a natural physiological labor.

And this was like the number one requirement. I had told my midwife this before I switched to her saying this was my birth, my goals. And I know things don't go as planned, but I just knew if I had an induction, there was no way I was going to be able to have a drug-free birth. I was going to then have to have an epidural.

I wasn't going to even try to have Pitocin contractions on my own now, like I was immediately going to get an epidural. So this was already like, at 32 weeks ruining my birth plan and it really upset me. So luckily my doula, Christine, offers some online classes, which were just incredible.

And the one class that I took with her was called Induction 101 like everything you need to know about inductions. And, one thing that was so great that I learned from her is she said, it's really important you take this Induction 101 class early because I'm a doula, I'm not a medical provider, and as soon as you hear this coming from your medical provider, anything I've told you, as your doula is going to go out the window and you're only going to listen to what your medical provider tells you. And I had just come from her class, like I had taken it a couple days before I went in and got this induction news from my midwife, and so luckily my brain, I was able to dismiss a little bit of what she was telling me, but I just wanna say for all the listeners out there, if you do have a doula, that doulas are incredible. They're wonderful. But one thing that's challenging as the patient is that there is tension between your doula and your medical provider.

Not necessarily directly within the room, that could happen maybe in your delivery, which I didn't have by any means, but your doulas tell you one thing and your medical providers tell you another thing, and you as the patient are left to navigate and negotiate that relationship. And I don't think there's anything, I don't really have any recommendations for that, but I wanna share that because I think it's only natural. And it's something that you have to contest with, as the patient. But I remember in Christine's Induction 101 class, she went through all these reasons, that were medical reasons you need an induction and large baby, big baby syndrome is absolutely not one of them, that women are capable of birthing large babies. And so- 

Lisa: Amen to that. 

Diana: Yeah. Yes. 

Lisa: Gotta say that. 

Diana: Yes. So that made me feel more reassured. But I was really concerned about it. So I had told my midwife, I said, look, I don't wanna talk about inductions. When we get to 40 weeks, we can talk about it, but I don't wanna dwell on this right now.

I just shut her down. But I do have to say that for the remainder of my pregnancy, I was just hyper concerned about trying to get myself to go into spontaneous labor myself, because I just did not wanna be pressured at all into an induction. I didn't think I'd have the willpower to stand up to the medical providers and decline in induction.

Self Induction Techniques

I would say actually against the recommendation of my doulas, because the midwife said around 37 weeks, the baby's full term, you can try to start doing some self induction techniques to get the baby out. And my doulas were like, you have another option, you can just let your body take its course, you don't have to do anything and just, let it do that. But I was just so nervous about being pressured into having an induction that I decided that around 38 weeks to start doing all the things I could do. So I took evening primrose oil, I drank a lot of red raspberry leaf tea and then I started going to acupuncture.

And was going pretty regularly, was getting acupressure, massages, walking a lot, just trying to get the baby out on my own. And I was prepared to start doing other stuff like nipple stimulation, all that stuff as I got closer to my due date. But I started really getting the ball rolling on that.

I got to start my maternity leave at 38 weeks. So at that point was when I started heavily trying to get the baby to come out. 

Lisa: Yeah. And I just wanna chime in real quick there and just, say that I think in an otherwise very uncontrollable process of pregnancy and going into labor and birth and parenthood as well, it's nice to find a sense of agency where we can, especially in the culture we're immersed in, where like it's all about being in charge and being in control.

It's nice to find little pieces of agency and those natural induction techniques, whether or not they work, can give you a little bit of that sense of agency, I think. Does that resonate at all for you, Diana? 

Diana: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Exactly. And to me, I had done a lot of research, like I was a big fan of Emily Oster, the New York Times had an article about do any of these techniques actually work?

And they even say the acupuncture doesn't work, you know, all these things. Like definitely evening primrose oil does nothing, they were saying. To me, I feel like all the things I did, did work. But yes. Yes. 

Lisa: Yeah. And we do have some studies about acupuncture. Not a lot, but we do have some on acupuncture and other natural induction techniques that I'll link to that actually in the show notes. Evidence-based Birth has compiled a whole series on that topic.

So it's not like there's none. We need more research, admittedly. And just because we don't have research proving something works doesn't mean it doesn't work either. I know, I feel like Emily requires you to have researched something really thoroughly. 

Diana: Yes. 

Lisa: To even believe in it at all.

Diana: Yeah. 

I like her, but. I heard in my birth classic though, the two actual things that work are sex because of the semen and the prostaglandins. Not even like the orgasm and the contraction of the uterus, but the prostaglandins from the semen and nipple stimulation. So I was prepared to start trying some more extreme things, but I definitely was like, let's start with the evening primrose oil and that stuff, the raspberry leaf tea.

So that's where I began. And the doulas had recommended, there was this guy, who they had recommended for acupuncture, who would send a lot of other clients into labor. So I started seeing him, but he was going to be at a fertility conference like during my 39th week when I needed him to really get my labor going.

So I decided to switch. And Sophia Medina, who became my postpartum doula, she actually came on this podcast and was talking about how she saw an acupuncturist on the Upper West Side, which was in our neighborhood, who turned her breech baby. And this guy sounded amazing and he was in network, which was even better than the other person I had been seeing.

Possible Membrane Sweep and Acupuncture

So I remember it was a Thursday, I had gone to my 39 week appointment, and I probably got my membrane swept, which they didn't tell me, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened. That was another point of contention and issues between the advice of the doulas and advice of the medical professionals.

There's a lot of talk on this podcast and other podcasts and then books about whether or not you should consent to cervical exams, and I had just felt pressured because my midwife said to me something along the lines of, I know you may be the type of patient who may be inclined to decline a cervical check, but I'm gonna have the OBs in the practice check you and see if your body is able to deal with a large baby. 

And so I felt cornered into having to consent to cervical checks. And the OBs in the practice, I remember them checking me and they're like, yes, you've got childbearing, hips, we don't see a problem. I went in at my 39 week checkup and I think I had my membrane swept because I remember my midwife being like, I got my fingertip up and almost touched your baby's head, like some kind of weird situation. And I remember being like, I don't want you touching my baby's head. Like what? Like what's going on here? This is not what's supposed to be happening. But that's what happened. And so I knew that the baby might be coming soon-ish. So that was Thursday and that afternoon I remember feeling crampy after the appointment, which can happen after you have a cervical check, and then going to see, Qi Li Acupuncture on the Upper West Side and we can link to it, I guess in the show notes, the guy was great and I went to see him and he put the needles in and came back and dug them in deeper. And it was like this really crazy sensation, like the baby started moving and he just did this incredible job.

And he said to me, okay, either you're gonna have the baby this weekend or if you don't, come back, either on Sunday or Monday for another round of treatment. And he said, make sure you're climbing a lot of stairs, like in the next couple of days. So I went home and that day I felt pretty crampy.

That Friday I remember I lost my mucus plug and I was pretty convinced that I was gonna have the baby. And then Saturday morning I woke up and I felt nothing, like no more cramping, everything was back to normal.

Lisa: This does sound like your membranes were stripped. Was it that 39 week one that you think they stripped your membranes?

Diana: Yes. Yep. 

Lisa: Yes. Yeah, cuz that often creates some spotting and some cramping. Like cramping, but annoying cramping, like where it comes and goes or it can just go on for days. Yeah. Interesting. 

Diana: Yeah. Yeah. And then it got to the point where like, I told Josh on Friday we had to cancel plans for Saturday and then we were supposed to go see his friend and I told him we couldn't hang out with him cuz I was gonna be going into labor the next day and then I was fine.

So I remember Saturday was this beautiful day. And we took a nice walk. We lived close to Central Park and I was really pregnant and we went to Central Park and we walked up and down the stairs at Bethesda Fountain and I ran into one of my best friends, who lives on the East Side. We just happened to meet in the park and it was just this beautiful, lovely day.

And then I came home, and we live on the eighth floor of our building. And so I climbed the eighth flights up to the apartment. And I walked almost five miles that day, and up and downstairs trying to get the baby out. And then we ordered spicy food, they say that's one of the things that might potentially work.

Water Breaks

So we ordered Szechuan food and I went to bed and then, I woke up at 1:43 AM with my water breaking. And it was like an audible rubber band sound. Yeah, it was pretty wild. One thing I forgot to mention is, another kind of stressful part of my pregnancy was that I was GBS positive, and I knew that if my water broke, I was going to have to go to the hospital, that's what they told me. To make sure I had time to get my antibiotics. And so they tell you in birth class typically your water does not break early, usually like it happens later on, like once you're at the hospital. But, they told me that if my water broke, then you're on the clock, you have 24 hours before they start an induction. 

But in the case of if you're a GBS positive, there's more of a kind of stress to come into the hospital right away. So this was not part of my plan, which I know you can't have a plan when you're having a baby. But my plan was not to have my water break first.

So when I woke up at 1:43 with my water breaking, I was like, oh crap, this is not a good thing. And I guess I'll hand it over to Josh to tell the rest of the birth or the leading up to the birth story. 

Lisa: And before you do, can I just ask, did you happen to chux pads protecting your mattress or anything?

Diana: I did not, but I, yeah, so the water broke, Josh- 

Joshua: Did not have pads, but we had, the mattress itself was encased in something that was waterproof. 

Lisa: Oh, nice. 

Joshua: Because we lived in New York City. And just to be clear, we have never had bedbugs, but in New York City, like there was the bedbug panic of five, six years ago.

Lisa: Oh yeah. 

Joshua: So everyone puts those things around their mattress. 

Diana: I don't think people understand like how some, in my case at least, how audible the water breaking was. 

Lisa: Can be. 

Diana: It really, it was like this crazy feeling like, what? I was like, what the heck just happened to my body? It was, yeah. Crazy, crazy. 

Joshua: So Diana's water broke and she woke me up. Just for the record, I did not hear it. And she woke me up and she said her water had broken. And I said, are you sure? Are you sure it wasn't just pee? And she said, yes, it was audible, like a rubber band. So it's like, okay, we got up.

And so we had previously discussed with the doulas that we really wanted to labor at home as long as possible. And like I knew that Diana did not wanna go to the hospital early. We did not want to go there. And they tell you, putting aside the water breaking, they tell you, don't go to the hospital till 4-1-1 And then whether the contractions are four minutes apart and they're lasting for a minute and it's going on for an hour, don't go until that because that's when you're gonna be far along and then you can labor at home and be comfortable. And I really wanted Diana to be able to labor at home and be comfortable.

So we got up and we got ready for the long wait. At that point, I put the pads and the towel down on the bed and I changed the sheets. Diana got up and she unloaded the dishwasher. 

Diana: I wanted to come home to a clean apartment I was like, I gotta get everything in order.

And they tell you like, the Amish bake bread, start a big project. So I was like trying to tidy up and like trying to kill time. 

Joshua: And then I started getting the shower ready. Because in one of our bathrooms, we have a shower with a seat in it.

So this would've been perfect for Diana to labor in, she'd have somewhere to sit and all of these things. We started getting the shower ready for her to labor in. And then, Diana said a contraction was coming. So I said, okay. I opened up the app that we downloaded on our phone. I don't remember what the app was, but there were many of them.

Lisa: Probably Full Term.

Joshua: It was recommended to us by the doulas. I don't remember what.

Lisa: It would be full term. Mm-hmm.

Joshua: And then the doulas had told us that, immediately once something happens, once I think we're in labor to text them in the group chat.

So I texted them in the group chat and they said, okay, great. I think Jaime just delivered a baby, so Christine will be on for you. And she said keep us posted. So Diana said a contraction was coming, so I got off the phone to time the contraction, and I was like all ready to time it.

And then she just never told me when the contraction ended. And then she said, oh my God, that's another one. Contraction is coming, And I was like, you didn't tell me when the other one ended. I can't time them to tell you what the contractions are if you don't tell me. She's like, I didn't feel the end, it just kept going. And at this point, I was worried. I thought something was wrong because they tell you that when labor starts, the contractions are going to be less severe. They're gonna be like 20 minutes, 30 minutes apart. And at the beginning of labor, the contractions are not supposed to be, based upon how Diana was acting, severe and very close together. 

Doula Says to go to the Hospital Immediately

So I don't remember if Jaime called me or if I called Jaime, I was on the phone with her and I was saying, the contractions are right on top of one another, Diana's telling me they're really severe, I don't know what's going on.

And then while I was on the phone with her, Diana yelled out, I think I'm gonna throw up. So Jaime said on the phone, you guys have to go to the hospital, like now, immediately. These are all signs of transition. I knew that we wanted to stay home as long as possible, having someone who is experienced tell me that it was time to go to the hospital was very helpful because if she had not, I probably would've delayed us going, like telling that we needed to go to the hospital.

And the baby may have been born in the bathtub with the New York City Fire Department, which was not in our birth plan. So I think this was like 15 minutes after we had gotten up. Right now it's two in the morning and all of a sudden we're starting like 45 minutes of absolute chaos.

So we're throwing the last things that we need into our bags, we're gathering things and packing up, we're ordering an Uber and at like,2:50, I think, we headed downstairs like the Uber was on the way. We headed downstairs to get into the Uber. And I went outside and I told the Uber driver, we need to go into the hospital, my wife is in labor. And he was, you know, visibly shocked and was like, has her water broke yet? And, said yes. And we have pads and everything and towels and everything to protect the car, don't worry about that.

We just need to get to the hospital now. 

Diana: Yeah. He wasn't very friendly like in all these birth stories, people were like, the Uber drivers are so nice, so common, and he was like, oh, your water broke, great. And I remember being like, I'm wearing a diaper, okay? And I got a towel, chill out. 

Lisa: Oh, I'm sorry you had that experience.

Arriving at the Hospital

Joshua: So thankfully the hospital was like 10 blocks away basically. So the Uber gets us to the hospital, at this point, it's three in the morning, we're rolling into the hospital. And we get to the hospital and just as we get to the hospital like our contractions are going while we're in the car, Diana's laid down in the back going through contractions. We get out of the car at the hospital, I get all our stuff, and all of a sudden another contraction hits and it's so severe, Diana drops to her hands and knees and she basically crawls into the lobby of the hospital on her hands and knees.

And the only other person in the lobby of the hospital is a security guard who just looks at us and goes, Labor and Delivery? And just that's all he says. Labor and Delivery? And I'm like, yes. He's like, do you guys need a wheelchair?

And you know me, I'm looking at my wife, she can't walk. And I'm like, yes, we need a wheelchair. And Diana just yells out I don't want a wheelchair. The contraction passes and I get her up, and she puts her weight on me. And Diana and I walk to the elevator and we get her in the elevator and we get up to the labor and delivery floor, which is deserted.

And as soon as we get to the floor, we get outta the elevator, another contraction hits. And Diana again is on her hands and knees laboring on the floor outside of the elevator in the hospital. And at this point, Diana proceeds to throw up all of the spicy mapo tofu that she had eaten before onto the floor of the hospital.

And then, we had the bags with us because we'd been told in transition that you could have nausea, and so I got the bag out. There was a good portion of it on the floor. And it's like in a different situation, I probably would've gone to find something and cleaned it up myself, but in this situation, I wasn't focusing on that. And we were sitting there and someone who worked at the hospital, I think a doctor or a nurse who was in scrubs, walked past the elevator hallway and saw us and asked if we needed help. And I said, we're here for labor and delivery.

I asked her if she could go get someone, and she did. And a few minutes later, a labor and delivery nurse appeared, with a wheelchair, and she basically tried to get us up into the wheelchair and Diana really didn't wanna get into the wheelchair. I didn't understand at the time, but. 

Diana: Yeah. Just to interject, to me, it's crazy that people think that women wanna sit down while they're in the midst of, especially like I was about to have this baby. Like I did not wanna sit in a wheelchair as a baby is trying to come outta me. 

Lisa: Absolutely not. It perplexes me too. 

And I wonder if they would've allowed you to kneel on it, turn around backwards, maybe? 

Diana: That's what Christine later said that you can do. And had she been there, she would've recommended it, but yeah. 

Joshua: I didn't understand this at the time, and this had not been any discussions of our birth plan, the wheelchair.

But to me, as a man and the husband, I see my wife on the floor, and unable to walk. So to me, and we're like, labor delivery is right there and like I'm thinking something's wrong. So I'm like, we need to get in there now. 

 My biggest priority was getting her into the labor and delivery triage, like in the lobby, everywhere. That was my priority, getting her there so that we could figure out what was going on. So then, and I remember after what seemed like five minutes of negotiations between Diana and the labor delivery nurse, finally it was agreed that Diana would push the wheelchair.

Diana: She, the lady was like, she had enough of me. She was like, get up either sit or walk in. Like she finally got it and was like, get up now, which made me, yeah. 

Joshua: I did not say that, the nurse did, but eventually it was agreed that Diana would push the wheelchair and bear down on it and use it like a walker to get her into the labor delivery triage. So we get up, Diana pushes the wheelchair in front of me with the labor and delivery nurse, and I gather all of our things, leaving the vomit behind and we go into labor and delivery triage. So they whisk Diana into the triage room, which was where I wanted her to be at this point, and I filled out the paperwork. 

 And then I'm texting the doula at the time and saying, Hey, this is what's going on. And at the same time, when we had left the hospital, left home, I had left a message on the emergency, all night number answering service for the practice.

And as I was checking Diana in at Labor and Delivery the OB on call called me and was like, what's going on? And I told her, basically what I had just told you, her water broke like less than two hours ago, the contractions are right on top of one another. I don't know what's going on.

So she's like, okay, I will call the triage nurse and I'll speak to the attending on call or whoever it was. So we went into the triage room and they were like getting Diana ready to do the initial exam. And the resident or the attending on call, not quite sure what his position was, came in and they gave Diana an exam and they basically looked at us and said, all right, you're nine and a half centimeters fully effaced plus one.

And we're like, okay, this baby's coming. It's like this baby's coming. And I just, again, in my mind I was like, how is this possible? She literally just went into labor two hours ago. This is not how this is supposed to go. So by now the doula had arrived and she said she was in the waiting room and I texted her, I'm like, here's what's going on. I guess most of the time they don't let the doula into the triage area. She sort of pushed her way in and got in there. Thank God she did. And she got there and like I was freaking out, I don't know if it was on my face, but I was freaking out.

She looked at me and she just goes, I'm here, do you need to go to the bathroom? And I did. Like as bad as I had ever needed to go to the bathroom in my entire life, I needed to go to the bathroom. 

Diana: But that's what's so amazing about the doulas is they're there to just sense what your client needs, including the husband's needs.

They're just magical. Christine was just the most like, wonderful person to be present. 

Joshua: She was, she was absolutely fantastic. And I personally at the beginning of this process, like at the beginning of the pregnancy process was like, why do we need doulas? We're giving birth in a hospital.

But you know, after reading a lot of the resources that Diana had given to me and watching movies with Diana, realizing that the birth plan that we wanted, I think doulas were very necessary for. And also I think the doula, just having someone who knows, has been through this before.

It's like having an older brother or older sister who has had like 10 kids or something, and you're having your first kid and that person is there to help you. And I thought that the guidance they were able to give, especially during this moment of chaos, was pretty great.

So by this point it was like 3:30 in the morning I think, maybe even closer to four, and they got us into a delivery room. 

Diana: Can I just interject something about triage? Yeah. I remember in triage, what's so wild to me is like they know you're delivering there, I'm a patient at a practice affiliated with the hospital, and nevertheless, they still proceed to ask you a million questions about your medical history.

And it's like, you're in the middle of having contractions. And I remember saying to the doctor, I could get you that answer in 60 seconds when this is over, but I have to focus on my contractions. Like, why are they not doing a preliminary admission procedure online, it's just crazy to me that you have to go through this. 

Lisa: I agree. Yeah. In birth class I always just mention double check, be sure you've done any and all pre-admission paperwork. But some hospitals still do that no matter what information you give them beforehand.

And it is incredibly frustrating. I hear you on that cuz I've seen it happen multiple times of just you're not in that thinking brain. And why are they asking you to get into that brain? It just feels inhumane. 

Diana: Yeah, yeah. 

Joshua: That's why you bring a birth partner with you to answer those questions, you know?

Lisa: Yeah. But even then sometimes they're like, no, we have to hear it from the person in labor. Like, it's ugh, But I'm glad that maybe some of it you were able to answer, Josh. 

Midwife Arrives and Doula Sets the Mood for Calm Labor

Joshua: Yeah, I mean I answered what I could. So we were in the triage room and then, just like miraculously, the midwife just appeared.

Diana, why don't you take over here? 

Diana: Yeah. So then she showed up and it just meant so much to me that even though she wasn't who was on call, she went out of her way to deliver my baby. And she has such a bubbly presence and she was like, hi, I'm here! Do I have time to change into scrubs?

And I was like, yeah, that's okay. Baby's not gonna come out right now. But then I remember she changed and they moved me into the labor and delivery room. And I remember she came back in and she was like, hi, let's go. She was super peppy and cheery. And I said to her like, I need you to bring the energy level down a bunch of notches because I need peace, I need calm. 

Lisa: That makes sense. 

Diana: She was like, way too peppy and bubbly. And afterwards I remember apologizing. I was like, I'm so sorry. It was so great you were here. But it was like, I'm not a very calm person. Like I had a lot of anxiety during my pregnancy, I'm not zen. I remember talking to Christine and Jaime, my doulas, asking them like, if I should do hypnobabies, and they're like, yeah, you don't seem like that's gonna work for you, like hypnobirthing. But when it came time to it, I managed to get super zen and needed tons of very low lights, low energy, and lots of calm. 

And then I remember it got really real, like no one, at least in the birth class I took, they didn't go into what actually happens once you get into the labor and delivery room.

Like I guess since I had such a precipitous labor, it felt very rushed. But I got in there and I remember Christine trying to set the mood by dimming the lights and hurriedly unpacking her bag and putting tea lights out. But then it got freaky because the labor and delivery nurse comes in and starts unpacking all those instruments.

And I was freaking out, like, oh my God, I'm now gonna have this baby. And I remember, I felt pressured because they had told me that I was in a position to push because I was plus one and, nine and a half centimeters dilated. But Christine was like, just chill out.

Don't start pushing until you really like, feel the need to push. And if you start feeling rectal pressure, then it's time to push. But I don't know. so I remember there was this calm sense that came over like, you're having your contractions, you're in labor, and then all of a sudden things get a little bit calmer and it gives your body, post-transition, a time to relax and I was just waiting around for that feeling to push to come along. And I started feeling a little bit of pressure, but in retrospect, I don't think I was actually really ready to push. But my midwife and the labor and delivery nurse were trying to get me to start trying to push. 

And I remember they had the fetal heart rate monitor on me, and I had clearly discussed as part of my birth plan, I did not want that, I wanted intermittent monitoring. And I remember trying to take it off, saying I don't want this on me. And the labor and delivery nurse was like, let me ask your midwife if I could take this off. And my midwife was like, no, because it's so late, it was so quick, we have to keep it on you.

And I was perturbed because this wasn't what was agreed to, but I had to have that on me. And I remember doing a lot of bearing down, putting my hands on the hospital bed and squatting on the floor. And they were like, you have to get up and get into the bed. And I was like, I don't wanna get into the bed.

I don't wanna be pushing on my back. This is not what I wanna be doing at all. And eventually I got forced to go into the bed, and so I was like, fine, but I'm not gonna push on my back. And I remember at one point, I myself had to ask for a squat bar, and it was weird. Like they didn't even seem to know how to put on the squat bar.

Lisa: I remember this vividly, Christine having to instruct them how to put the squat bar on. Hardly anyone uses it. 

Diana: Yeah. And I really was just not into the idea of pushing on my back. So I was trying different positions, and I also remember being in labor and having a contraction and thinking okay, these contractions are not that bad. 

The contractions are actually manageable. One thing that was really helpful for me was reading Ina May's Guide to Natural Childbirth and watching the documentary, The Farm Midwives by Ina May. That was really amazing in seeing the imagery of all of it and knowing this concept of sphincter law, which is how important it is to stay relaxed because according to her, your cervix is a sphincter as well.

And if you get tense, it will tense up. And so I was trying to stay calm and in the documentary they talk about the importance of very low pitch moaning and keeping your mouth open because if you have a relaxed mouth, you'll have a relaxed cervix. And so that was like my M.O. throughout, labor.

Pushing Stage

And so the actual contractions were not that bad. The labor itself wasn't bad. But what was awful was the pushing, because I had read so many things, I'd watched so many things. I'd listened to so many birth stories. And one thing I think actually, Lisa, you spoke about on one of your podcasts was the idea of the fetal ejection reflex.

And I was just waiting. I was having a natural labor, I didn't have an epidural, and I was under the impression that if I'm having an epidural free labor that the baby's just gonna slide on out of me because I'll experience this fetal ejection reflex. It's just gonna like push out. 

Lisa: I'm very sorry if I gave you that misconception. I did not mean to. 

Diana: I think I misunderstood, but that is not what happened. And I had to actually push the baby out, which was really terrible. And I wasn't prepared for that.

But later after talking to Christine, she was like, if you had just waited a lot longer, and actually, there's a word for it, I'm sure you know what it is.

Lisa: Labor down? 

Diana: Labor down. If you just wait for your body to labor down, it'll just naturally happen. And Christine was like, yeah, if you just waited, but that wasn't really what I was allowed to do, I have to say.

Lisa: And yeah, that's the thing. If given enough time and flexibility to experiment with positions, almost everyone would eventually get that urge to bear down. But like you're saying, in a hospital, there are gonna be these time constraints that make that challenging. 

Diana: Yeah. So I tried to start pushing and it didn't feel good at all.

So I stopped pushing and then to the point where I tried to take a nap. I was like, I'm done. And I, yeah, like Josh could tell it better, but I was like, I'm going to sleep now. 

Joshua: Yeah. It was a lot of a blur. Like I recall, Diana pushing in a lot of different positions on the bed and eventually I recall someone saying that she was pushing best on her back.

So she wound up moving to her back and she was pushing, and I think like the baby was moving down and there was a point where she was just like, I'm done. I'm gonna take a nap now. And obviously that couldn't happen. Tried to give Diana a lot of really strong and loving encouragement.

Because while I don't think anything was wrong with the baby, you could sense in the room a sense of concern. 

Diana: Yeah. I got a sense of there was some sort of sense of urgency that was coming from the labor and delivery nurse and the midwife. And my midwife said, okay, we have to get her on her back.

And I think cuz they had said when I was on my back I was pushing better. But they were trying to coach me and I remember saying, "No, coached pushing!" And then I also remember, saying get your hands out of there, do not stretch me, like shouting at my midwife.

Do not stretch me. I don't wanna be stretched. Like I knew what I wanted and I didn't want anyone like poking around and telling me what to do. I wanted to be able to have the labor I wanted on my own terms, which in that setting, you don't get to have everything your way unfortunately.

Baby is Born!

Yeah. So I ended up pushing on my back. Baby came out. I had just a small first degree tear. It wasn't that bad. But I remember when the baby came out, I was, I would say over prepared for labor. I listened to, again, so many birth stories. I had heard that if you have a precipitous labor, it can lead to hemorrhaging.

And so I remember the baby came out and I was just like, Didn't really want a lot to do with the baby. I was just so focused on am I okay? Is my body okay? Am I delivering the placenta? Is everything gonna be okay? And I just, I was so grateful that Josh was such a wonderful husband and he did a lot of skin to skin.

And he really provided that comfort that I couldn't really, as the mother at that point, cuz I was just too focused on what was going on. 

Joshua: Well I mean, the baby came out, went to the warmer with the pediatrician and everything was fine. And then, Diana again, I took the baby, I put the baby underneath my hoodie, called the birth hoodie, which used to be the gym hoodie, but now it was birth hoodie.

And now it's going back to being the gym hoodie and— 

Lisa: With a thorough cleaning, I'm sure. 

Joshua: With a thorough cleaning. And we had discussed names and we had a pretty good idea of what we wanted 'em to be, but we just, we hadn't actually named them at that point.

Diana: We didn't even know what we were having. The sex was a surprise, yeah. That was a big deal. 

Joshua: So eventually, once Diana passed the placenta, I remember Diana had said like she didn't need the placenta to be saved and she wasn't gonna pill the placenta, but she wanted to look at it.

Diana: I wanted to get a real good look at it though. See that organ I had grown in my body. 

Joshua: So Diana birthed the placenta. She got a good look at it. I took care of the baby. And then, after that we put the baby on her for some skin to skin and some initial breastfeeding.

Diana: Yeah. Christine helped the baby latch and the sun was starting to come out and it was just such a beautiful experience. And it was Marathon Sunday. And so I remember Christine got us settled, but she's like, guys, I gotta get outta here cuz it's gonna be crazy traffic.

I gotta get back to Queens. And so she was so lovely and then we said bye to her. And so the baby was born on Marathon Sunday. 

Joshua: I don't remember what time exactly he was born. 

Diana: 5:18 or something. 

Joshua: 5:18. So basically like less than four hours after Diana woke up and said her water had broken.

Diana: The morning he was born, because we didn't know what we were having, and Josh and I were Jewish, we were going to have a bris, a ritual circumcision, to not have the baby circumcised in the hospital. So he called the, we had a mohelet, a female mohel who was an MD, pediatric urologist. 

Lisa: Emily?

Diana: No, it was, 

Lisa: No, okay. 

Diana: No, but we can actually link to her. She was wonderful. 

Lisa: Yeah, that'd be great. 

Diana: Yeah, she was great. But what did she say? You called her up and what did— 

Joshua: She said, there's a lot of babies being born, I don't know what it is. It's like the full moon whatever. 

Diana: The full moon, there were all these babies to the point where I had to share a hospital room just for a temporary period.

But there were tons of babies born that weekend. 

So yeah, I guess that's the birth story. 

Going Home

Joshua: Yeah. So there was nowhere for me to stay in the hospital. So Diana- 

Diana: I sent him home. 

Joshua: Diana sent me home. First she sent me out for food. 

Diana: To get a bagel & lox. 

Joshua: First I got bagel & lox, she was deprived of for nine months. And then, for dinner she had picked out this Italian sandwich shop that she wanted me to go over and get me some cold cuts. We can link to that too. It was very good. And I'll link to, we'll link to the bagel store as well. 

Lisa: Do it.

Joshua: Mount Sinai, it's not too far away. And, then I went home and I got the apartment ready. I got the stroller out and made sure the stroller was ready to go. 

Diana: Yeah, that was another thing is I just, for New York City people, we live in Manhattan and we don't have a car, and everyone was like, oh, you need a car seat.

And I was like, I don't have a car. Why do I need a car seat? And just to be clear, it is not a rule. You do not need to leave the hospital with a car seat if you're walking the baby home. Like you're allowed to leave the hospital in a stroller. So Josh pushed the baby home in the stroller and I took an Uber back.

Joshua: Yeah.  And just to be clear, I wanna repeat that. If you're going to be driving, you need to leave with a car seat. 

Diana: Yes. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Joshua: But you can walk the baby home in a bassinet stroller, so that's what I did. I walked him home and I remember it's only like 10 blocks, but I think it took me like 45 minutes to walk 10 blocks because I was so afraid that like any jostling or bump was going to wake the baby.

And like every time I got to an uneven piece of sidewalk, I was lifting the front wheels up and then lifting the back wheels up to make sure that it was smooth. 

And now our baby is such a city kid. He naps best when there's jackhammering and sidewalk bumps. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Joshua: Then we got him home and then eight days later we had bris.

Diana: Yeah. So that's our birth story. 

Bris Ceremony and Postpartum Support

Lisa: Yeah, do you wanna share anything about, I think only one other couple has shared details about their bris. Are you interested in sharing anything on that? 

Diana: Yeah, maybe a couple of things. First of all, it doesn't matter if you don't know what you're having because the mohels work on eight days notice anyways.

So that's not a big deal. 

Joshua: You should still try and line one up. 

Diana: Yeah. 

Joshua: Because there's a lot of people that need them. So I would still, I would recommend even if you don't know what you're having, yeah. Once, you're past the third month and you're into the second trimester, calling in at least. Calling, getting some recommendations, finding the mohel that you're comfortable with, and at least getting on the mohel's book. Yeah. Cause there's information that the mohel so that you can get someone at least scheduled for around the time. So the mohel knows that, that's like in their schedule. 

Lisa: Definitely. To get on their radar. Yeah, yeah. Good idea. 

Diana: Yeah, no, it was a lovely experience. We did it right on our dining room table, but it was all sterile. And again, she was an M.D. pediatric urologist. She worked out of a hospital in the Bronx and had done just an extraordinary amount of circumcisions in her career.

So we felt really comfortable and highly recommended her. And she was, yeah, just lovely. She said some prayers and sang a little bit, and it was such a wonderful, emotional experience. And we only had our immediate family because of Covid and RSV and flu risk. But then we had that catered by a lovely, our favorite Upper West Side smoked fish shop.

So it was just a really great experience. But I think that kind of leads into some of my postpartum tips, which are like to really think about who you want around immediately postpartum. And for me, I just knew that this was going to be such a sacred space and time right after we had the baby, that I really wanted to limit who was going to be in our home during that time.

So I had a very firm rule that if it was a boy, no family, no visitors were allowed for the first eight days. And if it was a girl, I was going to try to impose a 14 day rule, which we didn't end up doing, but.

Lisa: I'm just curious what the thinking behind the days was.

Diana: I just wanted to have two weeks for ourselves, like with professional help.

Mm-hmm. And not having where you have to host. And even if you're not having a big event like a bris, when your visitors come into your apartment, they are gonna hold the baby and you're gonna have to offer them something to drink. And it just, it's really a lot that goes on.

And another great piece of advice that Christine had given me, my doula, was that they say you're supposed to have, it's like one week in the bed, one week on the bed, one week outside of the bed or there's some expression. And I think it's really true. You just have to consider who is your support system.

 If you have family members who are going to be really supportive and really helpful, then by all means have them come in. But it's just important to think about who is going to be the most helpful. And another thing is that we live in a pre-war building where there's no washer and dryer in our unit.

And, I remember listening, I think it was to Chana's episode about how anxiety provoking it was in her pregnancy about not having a washer and dryer in her unit. And I was wondering how I was gonna cope with not having a washer and dryer. And so that's where I think it was amazingly helpful to hire a postpartum doula.

And I had spoken to Christine, my birth doula, about this, and she said, it sounds like you may really well benefit from hiring a postpartum doula. And so we hired Sophia Medina. She was incredible. One thing that I really admire about her is that she's able to do it all. Like she was such an amazing baby wearer.

She would just wear the baby and then roll our massive mount of laundry down to the basement and do the laundry with the baby on her and then come back up and cook us food and we would give her our Blue Apron recipes to cook. She cared for my mental health and my body and she was just like, absolutely incredible.

 I think we hired a block of 20 hours with her and I recovered very quickly. So I just wanna kind of circle back to my point at the beginning about having a lot of anxiety during my pregnancy. When the baby came out, I was like, super chill and I'm actually a really calm mother, I have to say.

And so it's okay if you feel anxious during your pregnancy. Like you may not have that anxiety through postpartum. I had a really pleasant postpartum experience and I think it was because I did a lot of research, hired some help and really took care of myself and it's just been a really, a lovely, wonderful time. 

And Sophia cooked, I had her make matzo ball soup for us for Hanukkah, and she was just incredible. Anything I needed her to do, she could do it for me. So just really consider hiring a postpartum doula. 

Breastfeeding Journey

And then, I just wanna talk a little bit about breastfeeding just as we-- 

Lisa: Absolutely. Yes, please.

Diana: Breastfeeding was one of my goals. I really wanted to be able to breastfeed very easily. And I had some really wonderful friends who were breastfeeding role models for me who exclusively breastfed, had no major issues with it. And I remember hanging out with a different friend in my pregnancy and she was like, are you planning to breastfeed?

And I said, yeah. And she said, breastfeeding is gonna suck. I don't think you're gonna like that. And I remember thinking like, it doesn't always have to suck. I've seen really positive experiences with breastfeeding. So breastfeeding doesn't have to be your goal and no judgment, some people just really aren't into it.

But if you think it's something you want to do, then you should have resources lined up for that. One thing I did not think I needed, an IBCLC, and there is a difference, by the way, between a lactation counselor and an IBCLC. And I'm sure Lisa, you'll probably be talking about this a little bit, but, I assumed I would have my doulas, like my birth doulas and my postpartum doulas around to help me.

And they were great and they certainly did help me latch. But a friend of mine told me I should hire a lactation consultant. And I hadn't thought of it, or it wasn't something I had considered, but per her recommendation, I ended up hiring one before I gave birth. And there's an amazing resource out there called the Lactation Network, and you can put in your insurance information.

And even if you feel like you've looked at your benefits and you don't think you're eligible for coverage, it may be the case that you are actually covered. So don't dismiss it right away that you may have to pay out of pocket for it. And even if you do, honestly, it's worth the money if you have to pay out of pocket.

But I was paired with an amazing lactation consultant, and she came to our apartment and made sure that Will's latch was okay. He ended up having a little bit of a tongue tie, which we got corrected, but. I just say equip yourself with the resources. And another thing that was amazing was taking Christine's lactation prep class because in that class I learned the most important tip, which is that on days three to four will be the emotional rollercoaster days. And it's because that's when the progesterone in your body is leaving and it has to exit your body by way of either tears and or sweat. That was just such a good tip to know that it's okay if you're feeling down or if you're feeling extremely sweaty during that period because it's all normal.

And this's just part of the postpartum experience. And because I was so hyper aware of what might potentially happen to my emotional state, I felt like I didn't really have any issues. Not to say that if you do, there's a problem, but it's just great to be informed and just knowing what may happen to your mind and your body during that time is really, at least in my case, helped calm me, by knowing what to expect. Yeah, and they were just great. Another thing I learned in that class was to buy silverettes, which are these sterling silver nipple covers, which work magic. 

Lisa: Those are great.

Diana: Yeah, even though our baby had a tongue and lip tie, and so his latch wasn't great, I never had crazy nipple problems because I wore the silverettes immediately after giving birth.

So that's an amazing tip that I recommend. And, yeah, if you wanna breastfeed by all means, like try to do it and seek out resources and there's people there to help you. 

Lisa: With the tongue tie correction, did you go straight to having the surgical release done? Or did you do body work or did you do both? 

Diana: So I asked immediately about it in the hospital, the lactation consultant, if she thought there might be one. And she was a little weird about it at first. The IBCLCs actually are not allowed to diagnose it, which is weird cuz in my opinion, like that's their job actually to assess latches.

But upon the second day she said there might be one, and then the pediatrician said there was probably one. So when we went to our pediatrician appointment, she then confirmed there definitely was a tongue tie. But it wasn't that severe so we could have left it, but the IBCLC really recommended we go to a pediatric dentist.

There's a guy in town that everyone goes to. And we got ours lasered. 

Lisa: Siegel, right?

Diana: You can either get it snipped, which would've been in network, or you can get it lasered. There's different kinds of camps about which method to do. We decided to go to Siegel and yeah. We would do it again. It just requires some kind of intense stretching exercises afterwards, which isn't great. 

Lisa: Yeah. A little. Mm-hmm. 

Joshua: I thought Dr. Siegel, he was great. He was very experienced, and the follow up care I thought was great. He gives you his cell phone number, you can text him.

He looks at the pictures every Monday, so he tells you how things are going. Also, I think Diana, and, just obviously I can observe the breastfeeding, but I think that Diana would have more of a personal view on this, but I think like the minute that the tie was released, there was a noticeable difference in his breastfeeding and I think it was easier for Diana as well. So I would definitely do it again. Yeah. 

Lisa: Okay. Yeah. I was gonna ask if you felt it was effective. 

Diana: Yeah, it was definitely effective. Whether or not I would laser or snip it, snipping is probably just as fine, but I don't know.

We talked about it like, for a future kid we would pay out of pocket and get it lasered again. So that's just a different kind of opinion on it. Just another thing I wanted to circle back to about breastfeeding, another incredible tip I learned from Christine's lactation class was not only are you going to experience that emotional rollercoaster on days three and four, but during that peak emotional period is the day you're supposed to go to the pediatrician and your baby's weight will be scrutinized.

And that was really important to know because the advice she gave me was to try to delay the visit to the pediatrician as long as possible. And in our case, we felt comfortable delaying it because we had the IBCLC coming to our apartment to do a weighted feed on day three or four. So we were able to know that enough milk was being transferred to the baby, even with the tongue tie issue to not yet be concerned.

So by the time we went to the pediatrician for the first time, it must have been like day four or five. So we tried to stretch it out as long as possible. And then just on that note, we did experience an issue where at one point the pediatrician got concerned about the baby's weight gain, but luckily, Will was born in November and it fell over the Thanksgiving holiday. So we were able to go like a long stretch, like another week without seeing her, and by that point his weight had jumped back up. So I'm just explaining this to the listeners because you know your baby will most likely lose weight. And it may not need to be that concerning. And that's why having an IBCLC who can do a weighted feed and ensure that milk is being transferred is really important. And I just, I did not wanna have to give formula and I didn't need to give formula. I was able to feed my baby.

And another thing that bothers me when you hear people say things like, oh, my milk hadn't yet come in, so I had to give formula. It's like, well, your milk doesn't come in. That's how your breasts work. You will have only colostrum for the first couple of days. It's normal not to have actual breast milk.

So, I just wanna calm the listeners out there that these are all normal things. And again, having a doula and having an IBCLC on hand is really extraordinarily helpful when you're trying to figure out all of these new parts of being a mother. 

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. It should be standard of care to have an IBCLC visit around day three to five.

Absolutely should be. We're not serving families well because we're sending them home on the sooner side than most developed nations do. And so that time when the milk is transitioning or coming in can present new challenges that we didn't have before, and to just be like, okay, we're alone, we have no support in this. It can be really tricky. I'm really glad you're emphasizing that and highlighting that. Thank you, Diana. 

So anything else that you wanted to share or any final insights or tips that you wanna leave our listeners with?

Diana: I think that's everything. Anything from your side, Josh? 

Resource Recommendations

Joshua: No, nothing from my side. I found that, I forget what the book was, but I read one or two books while Diana was pregnant that were specifically focused for dads. And a lot of the introduction is it seems like you have nothing to do during pregnancy, but that's not true.

There's so much for you to do. And I would just encourage expectant fathers out there, there's a lot of resources. Grab one of these books, go on Amazon, they just recommend them and read something like that. And it's organized by trimester, tells you what's going on with your wife's body, things that you can do to help, there's like different tips for different things you could do.

So I found that very helpful, to read along with how Diana was progressing. So I thought that was very helpful. And again, I would say to expectant fathers don't resist the doula. You know, It's very, as helpful for you as it is for, or to expectant non-birth parents, it's as helpful for you as it is for the birth parent. So really I would not resist it at all. 

Lisa: Because you got to go pee. When you really needed to. 

Joshua: Yes, I did. But also, that was my attempt at humor in the situation, but like I hope the real lesson that people take from that is like,Diana woke up, Diana got in labor and things were going the exact opposite of what people told us it was going to do.

And to have someone who was there who could basically back up the way you were feeling and say you need to go to the hospital right now, especially when everything that was going on seemed like it was so contrary to the birth plan was, I thought, very reassuring to me.

Cuz like at the time I did not want to be the person, I knew we didn't wanna go to the hospital and every ounce of my body wanted to be like, we need to go to the hospital right now. And they tell you, dad, that's gonna be your instinct. Don't do that.

Take a breath. And then to have someone to tell me, no, you are right. You need to go to the hospital right now. I thought it was very reassuring.

Diana: A funny thing we wanted to share is that I would play the birth podcast like I was going to bed at night, like lying in bed on my phone. And so I would fall asleep and Josh would end up listening to the end of the birth stories. This was a pretty common occurrence of what happened during my pregnancy. Cause I was just obsessed with listening to all kinds of birth stories. I knew anything and everything that could happen. And then one last thing. I mentioned it already, but, the documentary about Ina May, you can get it on Amazon, it's about the farm midwives. That is amazing, getting to see women labor naturally. They show women who have these actual orgasmic births, which is really wild. And how sensuous labor can be, like women with their partners. And it's just like this wildly different alternative to the way Hollywood portrays a painful birth.

That's a great resource even to women who wanna have epidurals in hospital births, it's a great thing to see labor in its natural element. 

Lisa: Agreed. Yeah. I was fortunate enough to get to see it on the big screen in Manhattan at an independent film theater when it first came out, and I'll be sure to link to that in the notes.

Yeah. All right. Well thank you so much for taking the time to share. This has been so great and you've definitely shared some new things that I don't think have ever been shared on this podcast. So I think it's gonna be really inspiring for folks. 

And I do feel like there has been an unusual theme this season in the podcast of precipitous births, of fast labors, for whatever reason. So it's giving people the impression that that's the common thing. It is not the common thing, but I'm glad that it was efficient for you, and I'm glad that it sounded like there weren't complications afterwards in the third stage, even though it sounded like you were concerned about that.

Diana: Yeah, that was fine. 

Christine also shared, maybe you can link to it as well, a great infographic. It's Pam Simpkin's labor journey. And you may 

Lisa: Yeah. Penny Simpkin. It looks like a board game. 

Diana: Yeah. Yes. And that was on our fridge the last weeks leading up to labor. And it has the epidural highway and the rocky road of back labor.

And that's just an incredible infographic just to explain that, yes, some people like myself can have very actual highways, not epidural highways, but highway natural births or really, rocky, long, long days of labor. So there's all kinds of things that can happen.

Lisa: As I love to say, a huge range of normal in all things birth and babies too. Alright, well thank you again. Appreciate it so much. 

Joshua: Oh you're so welcome. Thank you for having us.