On today’s episode, you’ll hear Mariko’s & Rick’s story of hiring a doula very well-suited to them for Mariko’s labor and who served them in very practical and holistic ways throughout pregnancy, labor, and into postpartum. Right around 40 weeks, Mariko’s OB decides there’s a bit of concern about baby’s well-being due to lack of movement, so they check into their Long Island hospital, Winthrop, for an induction. She shares the ways in which she was able to find coping strategies that rendered an epidural or other pain meds unnecessary. They also talk a bit about how they believe their meditation practice translated into labor. They’re also going to share a few parenting strategies they’ve found useful that could be really helpful for parenting your newborn.
Check out the cool music resources Rick shared for expectant parents below!
Episode Topics:
Choosing a doula and the holistic & strategic ways she was supported
OB decides induction necessary at 40 weeks
Description of ~24 hour labor (a common length for a 1st-time labor induction), including dilating from 7-10cm in only 1 hour
Pushing stage and Rick’s humorous take on the moment when the baby’s head emerged
Reflections on Mariko’s favorite part
The specific medications used for the induction
Early breastfeeding challenges & discovering how much better European formula is when supplementation was needed
Rituals with Music & how a baby’s appreciation of specific kinds of instruments/music changes as they develop
Routines for baby -- Eat-Play-Sleep
Swaddling
Relationship tips for early parenting -- falling in love all over again, being mindfully appreciative of each other, meditating together
Being gentle with yourself in this big identity shift
Resources:
Pranasoundstudio.com - Daddy Rick’s website, where you can find his sound meditation events
Lisa’s Amazon list with birth balls, Rescue Remedy, and other tools for labor/early parenting*
**Disclosure: Amazon links on this page are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.**
Transcript
Lisa:
0:00
You're listening to the Birth Matters Podcast, episode nine
Speaker 2:
0:04
And the class was super helpful. I think being able to reframe my brain with pain was super helpful because it was pain with a purpose. Taking a class—your class—was just, there was just so much knowledge in that.
Speaker 3:
0:28
[inaudible]
Lisa:
0:28
Hey there, and welcome to The Birth Matters Show. I'm your host, Lisa Greaves Taylor, founder of Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education and Labor Support. This show is here to lessen your overwhelm on the journey into parenthood by equipping and encouraging you with current best evidence info and soulful interviews with parents and birth pros. Please keep in mind the information on the show is not intended as medical advice or to diagnose or treat any medical conditions. Today you'll hear Mariko's and Rick's story of hiring a doula very well suited to them for Mariko's labor and who served them in very practical and holistic ways throughout pregnancy, labor and into postpartum. Right around 40 weeks Mariko's OB decides there's a bit of concern about baby's wellbeing due to lack of movement, so they check into their Long Island hospital, Winthrop, for an induction. She shares the ways in which she was able to find coping strategies that rendered an epidural or other pain medications unnecessary.
Lisa:
1:27
They also talk a bit about how they believe their meditation practice translated into labor. They're also going to share a few parenting strategies they've found useful that could be really helpful for parenting your newborn. During this interview you'll hear subtle rhythmic sounds of crickets. Given Rick is a music therapist and musician. I can't help but wonder if that was an intentional sound they were playing for their daughter. It seemed to me that the cricket sounds become a bit more noticeable after their daughter makes a few sweet sounds around 13 and a half minutes into this episode. I haven't checked in with them to ask, but that's my hunch. Rick has provided some really cool music resources in the shownotes that I'll detail at the end of today's episode.
Lisa:
2:08
Before we get started on the birth story, today's episode is brought to you by the Birth Matters Complete Online Course. If you can't squeeze in an in-person group birth class series, or if you didn't feel like the one you took was comprehensive enough, or if you don't even have a quality class available in your area, I have the perfect solution for you. Birth Matters Complete Course is an online recorded version of my in-person full series. It covers not only prep for an amazing birth with self-advocacy tips, best current evidence and tips for partners, but also holistic postpartum wellness, breastfeeding and newborn care. And to top it off, you get lifetime access so that you can use it as a refresher later in this or a future pregnancies. How awesome is that? For New York City locals, you have an option to add to the course an in-person one evening hands-on measures workshop, which is a really ideal option for the more tactile parts of the course. Check it out at birthmattersonline.com. Now let's get started with today's birth story.
Lisa:
3:11
Hello, hello! So glad you guys are here on the show today. Thanks so much for coming on to share your birth story and other things. So why don't you guys just introduce yourselves first and let us know where you are in your parenting journey.
Mariko:
3:24
Sure. My name is Mariko and my husband is here.
Rick:
3:29
Rick.
Mariko:
3:29
I gave birth April 13th, 2019, so she is four months now.
Lisa:
3:36
Nice. So yeah, you're a little bit past that fourth trimester now. Hopefully coming out of the clouds a little bit and sounded like you're back to work. Have you been back to work for awhile?
Mariko:
3:47
I just went back to work after 16 weeks. So yeah, it's been, it's been a lot. This is our first, our first baby first, you know, pregnancy, there's just the whole, the whole process, the first trimester and the second trimester. I think there was just a lot of—not so much confusion I would say—but when you haven't been through something before there, there is sort of a big question mark. And how's the labor going to be? What's happening? I don't have my immediate family around. So that was a big one for me. So searching for a doula and reading a ton of books, but even reading books in a way, it's not, it's not as helpful as like attending a class or meeting a doula or having somebody with you as like a, a big support system. So we did find a doula, I set up some interviews and when I, when you meet the one you kind of know. It's like an instant connection. Felt like my sister and she, she led us to you. So that was great. But she brought in so much knowledge of just, you know—I chose to birth in a hospital because I love my OBGyn. He was really open to everything, but he also birthed my niece and nephew, which was great. So there was a trust there that he was really open to birthing positions and all this stuff. So the doula, you know, she had like questions that we were able to ask, you know, "Can you get into a different position? How long can you be—" because I guess when you're in the hospital setting there are some protocols, that I wasn't even aware of in terms of what can happen—how long you can labor in a hospital, even. Just things that you know, you want to avoid if you can. And having that knowledge, I think, going into it, was really helpful because every appointment we were like, "What are we supposed to ask today again? How long can I stay at home if my water breaks? How long can I labor at home? Do I want to get into the hospital quickly?" And like all of that I think was really helpful for both of us.
Rick:
5:50
Oh, yeah. Big time.
Lisa:
5:50
And how early in your pregnancy did you hear about a doula, or did you, did you already know about doulas?
Mariko:
5:57
I was kind, nerding out. I was listening to podcasts too at this time and reading books, so, and reading Ina May Gaskin's childbirth book or whatever and I knew I wasn't going to go to a farm to like give birth, but yeah, I feel like it was late. I wished it was earlier, maybe not too late. I guess around maybe 20 weeks, I would say somewhere in the middle of my pregnancy.
Lisa:
6:18
That's a lot earlier than most people. Most people don't even know about a doula or think about it until their last trimester. Third Trimester. Yeah. Cool So you had her for some of that pregnancy to help guide you—it sounded like—with those prenatals. That's great. How wonderful.
Mariko:
6:32
Yeah. She was awesome. I did like her too because she was holistic in a sense. So there was some things that, you know, we shared like a like-mindedness, like she was into aroma therapy and essential oils and you know, she talked about being able to bring that into pregnancy, like safe essential oils that I could use during the pregnancy. She also made products, which was great. So she gave me some creams to use and some creams that I could use after the birth for just healing. Also aroma therapy in the room. So she was able to set up the birth room with like aroma therapy. And I remember when the OB came in, he was like, "I want this for every birth" because it smelled really great in there. So that was good.
Lisa:
7:18
Now, Rick, what were your thoughts? Had you heard of a doula before and were you on board with it or were you concerned? Did you have concerns about it or hesitations about hiring?
Rick:
7:28
No hesitations at all. I, I mean, I didn't know too much about it until Meriko kind of researched and gave me the rundown. But as soon as I met her, it made total sense to have that. It's like having a, you know, a coach, somebody to kind of fall back on when you're confused or you're not sure about something. Having someone who knows what they're doing and who knows what you want, kind of keep things on track for you is huge.
Lisa:
7:56
That's great. I love that you were onboard because some partners are concerned that—they're like, "Well, I don't want to be replaced," you know, like, "Is she going to take my place? I don't want that." And then others are like, "Oh, please take my place." But, but yeah, I love it when—a doula is there to fit into whatever you guys envision. So it sounds like that was what she was doing.
Rick:
8:20
Yeah, 100 percent.
Mariko:
8:21
Yeah. The doula was great. Her name was Bori, everything—and I liked also that she wasn't—that was sort of a misconception I had too, I thought a doula was going to come in and like take over and—almost like what you had just said to Rick where—not like replace my partner, but the fact that it was just like gentle guide, that gentle guidance and just the knowledge behind all of it with—You know, I was able to text her, she was just there 100% of the time where I'm like, "I'm feeling this way. Is that normal?" And a lot of holistic remedies instead of—yeah, I was getting anxiety because I was working full-time too. So there was like times where I was getting anxious and she was recommending, you know, Rescue Remedy. I was like, "Is that safe for pregnancy?" She's like, "You could just take a drop, put it in your water." That was, you know, super helpful.
Lisa:
9:10
I carry that in my doula bag. A lot of us do.
Mariko:
9:13
Really? Yeah, no, that was, that was amazing, especially towards the end, you know, leading up to the birth and waiting. But yeah, my, my birth, there was some things that happened that wasn't sort of in my plan. And it was not like super scary. But I went in, we went in for, just like a regular testing. I was in close to my 40th week and there wasn't a lot of movement with the baby and stuff, but she could've been in a sleep state, which is definitely what was happening. Because I was in my last week of pregnancy and I was full term and he was like, "I don't like what I'm seeing" and, and I'm considered—you know, I mean I'm healthy and everything, but I'm over 35. So that was another, you know, concern. He's like, "It's probably not this, but I'd rather have you checked out." So I ended up going into the hospital and they had induced me. So that was sort of a let down a little bit, you know, not—I was kinda like, "Oh, like I thought I was going to go into labor, be home, like, you know, making cookies, painting. or whatever—but rolling with the punches and then also having a doula, you know, that instead of being like, "Oh," like—I was almost afraid that she was going to be like, oh, you know, like disappointed and she was like, "Great, okay," like "Let me know what's happening, and Dah, Dah Dah" and like super positive. Rick was able to text her the whole time and I was like, "Oh, okay." And that wasn't, you know—having the induction I guess in the moment I was a little, you know, upset about it. But then when they were like, "You're gonna have your baby tomorrow, like probably tomorrow." That's when I was kinda like, "Alright, I'm done being pregnant." So even though it happened this way, I'm like, "I still have all the tools" and taking the class—the childbirth class was such a big help in terms of— also in the last trimester it was a big help to know what was happening in my body. I wasn't hungry. The third trimester your stomach is squashed and people are like, "Eat! How come you're not eating?" And I'm like, "The baby is pressing on everything and this is what's happening in my body" was helpful, and the techniques, the counter pressure techniques, super helpful.
Mariko:
11:09
I can see how going into the hospital being induced, how someone can kind of have that snowball effect, and all the tools that I did have with me in terms of, you know, requesting a Bluetooth Monitor, being active throughout my whole pregnancy and during the labor time—because there was a few times that they took me off the Bluetooth Monitor while I was laboring. They're like "Can you just, like, be in the bed, we want to get like a clearer fetal tone. Like we lost the heartbeat," and when I would have contraction laying on this hard in bed and I was like, "Oh my God," I could see why people want, you know, pain relief. I was like, "I need to be up. I need to be walking." And the nurse was great because she's like, "I see what you're trying to do." She's like, "So if you want me to put this on you while you're standing even and you can be standing, I'll do that and I'll come back in five minutes." And I requested a birthing ball. So I had that. But the counter-pressure techniques, I mean we packed a bag, we had it filled with snacks learning that there was that new law that was passed, but maybe the hospitals didn't catch on about eating, was great too. Because I was, I was eating. The nurses were like kind of giving me clear liquids or whatever and I wasn't eating big meals, but I was eating a little bit because I was like, "I'm gonna have to birth the baby, I need some energy." But we packed the rebozo, which was one of my favorite things.
Lisa:
12:31
And just for listeners who aren't familiar with the rebozo, it's a long scarf that's like two feet wide, maybe eight to 11 feet long. And it's been used in Mexico by midwives for many, many years as a beautiful way to, for comfort measures, for partners to work smarter, not harder. So I just wanted to clarify that because a lot of people would be like, what's a rebozo? I've never heard of that.
Mariko:
12:54
All that was amazing. And leading up to the birth, I mean, every night it was just like relieving that pressure in my back. Rick was awesome because he would be like massaging my back at night and yeah, it was going into that and it was kind of scary for us because we left the OBGYN and they were like, "Alright, well, come back to the hospital at four and you'll check in and they'll check you. And I'm like, "I need to food shop." Like [crosstalk] I'm like, "Is this really happening?"
Lisa:
13:25
Did you say you were 40 weeks when this happened?
Mariko:
13:29
Yeah. So I think I was able to— I mean, I guess I could have waited. But with the low fetal—you know, the, you know, not moving around and all of that. But when I did get into the hospital and they checked again, she was like a little acrobat. So we joked around and we were kind of like, "I guess she wanted to come early." She wanted to come when she was supposed to come because she basically came on her due date, which is kind of funny. But yeah, the contractions and being active, all those techniques, and the class was super helpful. I think also being able to like reframe my brain with pain was super helpful, because it was pain was a purpose and taking a class, your class was just, there was just so much knowledge in that. And it's not like I broke my leg and I'm like, "Oh I need pain relief." It was more of "This—this is gonna pass and I can get through it."
Lisa:
14:27
I hear the baby. I love the baby sounds.
Mariko:
14:27
Yeah, that was, that was great. And the next thing I knew my water, my water broke. So they didn't check me pretty much for a really long time for infection, all that stuff. And there was the point where the contractions were really intense and the nurse that was with me all day was like, "I'm dying to know where you are. Any, you know, any medication or epidural. And they asked me a few times and they're like, "We see what you're trying to do." My OB was great. He was like, "If you don't know if you need one..." because I was like, "I don't think so. I don't think I need it." He's like, "If you don't know that, then, you know, then you don't need one if you don't know." So I'm like, "Okay." He's like, "You'll know, you know, when it's time," and I'm like, "How am I going to know when it's time? How am I gonna know when it's time?" But yeah, I knew when it was time. They checked me, I was seven centimeters. By that point my doula came in and she's like, "Wow, great. Okay." They checked an hour later because there was just this point where I was like, "I feel like I have to push" and I went from seven to 10 in an hour.
Lisa:
15:28
Wow. Your body just all of a sudden got it. Sometimes that can happen. Do you remember how many hours in from the start of the induction this was?
Mariko:
15:36
Induction was long because I, we slept there overnight. So I was checked in the day before. I think by morning, I was like two centimeters or just about two centimeters and then I would say I got to seven—well 11 o'clock maybe I was two centimeters or so, by seven o'clock I was seven.
Lisa:
15:57
7 pm.
Mariko:
15:59
Yeah.
Lisa:
16:00
So this is a little more than 24 hours later probably.
Mariko:
16:02
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because she was born around, she was born at like 9:47 I think. So yeah. When we got to 10 centimeters and I remember looking at Rick and I was like, "No epidural?" My brain was just like, "Oh my God, how am I—" like, I was just wondering how the getting to the other side of it was going to be like, but yeah, it was, it was amazing. And I think once you get to pushing, that's when it was just like, it wasn't painful. It was just getting through the contractions—for me anyway—was the most painful part.
Lisa:
16:39
In the first stage before pushing you mean?
Mariko:
16:42
Yeah. Yeah. Once pushing happened, it was more of something that, I don't know, it was just, you were able to do something with that pain, in a sense.
Lisa:
16:50
Yeah, and it feels much more proactive. I find that that's, of course everybody's different, but I find that more often than not, that's the response that a lot of women have, is that the second stage was a lot more manageable in terms of the way you're perceiving the sensations happening.
Mariko:
17:07
Yeah, and it was, it was sort of like a relief to be at that point. And the nurses were great too because they were helping me get into different positions, which I didn't even know you were able to, you know, they were sitting, sitting me up. So there was a point where I was like, almost like, it looked like I was sitting in a chair, but I did find for me the most comfortable thing was, you know, being on my side. So every—every other contraction I was doing on my left side, then they would help turn me and I'd do the right side just to try to get the baby to kind of move around and get into a better position. But yeah, I mean I think Rick had a funny—well I mean Rick's side of things during that time was actually pretty, pretty interesting.
Lisa:
17:49
Want to share Rick?
Rick:
17:51
One part of it that, that's funny, but I mean I think the whole thing was amazing, going through the process. I think the most, I don't know, the best thing I think I was able to do is just be really mindful and present in the moment, because you can't predict anything that's going to happen at any given moment, and the amount of fluctuations and changes, like no, no man can really ever possibly know what that feels like. It's impossible. So you just have to kind of really focus on your partner and zone in to, to whatever it is they need and try to give them what they need before they ask for it.
Lisa:
18:37
That's tricky.
Rick:
18:40
Yeah. And I think after, you know—because it's hours, you know, within the first one or two hours, you might not know exactly what you're doing, but you fall into a rhythm, you fall into a pattern. And I don't know, I think it was, it was almost kind like a, a meditation of sorts where you're just doing things without knowing. Your intuition takes over, you're just going with the flow. I think the, the actual birthing was unbelievable in every way you can imagine. But, the doctors were, were really cool. They let me be as hands on as I can be in that process, which, to be honest, I didn't know if it was something I was gonna want to see, you know. You talk—I would talk to friends or other guys, they'd say "Don't look!" and you know, "Disgusting! You're never gonna be the same!" But I, you know, I think that's all a bunch of fluff. And to witness that is basically a miracle. So I didn't want to miss it. So the doctor let me, basically, I was holding her legs up. I was all up in it right next to the doctor like I worked there.
Lisa:
19:55
Oh, so you weren't up by her head? You were down there, huh? Wow. And Mariko, I guess you were okay with that?
Mariko:
20:04
I was okay with it, yeah. There was one point where he was holding my right leg, my doula's holding my left leg and they were like helping me go through the contractions. But I was in a completely different space. Like I'm right about that space where—one of the nurses joked around—where, I would open my eyes and then I'd like kind of see everybody and close my eyes and I was just somewhere else. Like I was just very in tune with my body and what was happening and just focusing on what was going on internally. Because yeah, when I did open my eyes I was just like, "Whoa. Lots of people in my face," I was like, "Bye-bye," and just close my eyes.
Lisa:
20:41
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry Rick, I think I kind of cut you off a second ago. Keep going, I'm loving hearing your insights.
Rick:
20:51
Yeah, I mean, it's—going through that is pretty intense. I don't know. I, I, I kinda, it felt very tribal to me, if that makes sense in a good way, where it's just, it's a very intense moment and, you know, I'm watching Mariko push with all her might and it's, it's, it might be a weird metaphor, but it almost started to feel like a sport where you, you know, you would see the tiniest bit of the baby's head start coming out. I'm watching her push with all her might, and you know, it's that, that last hold and then that last push and you want that head to just come out that little bit more, and then it goes—whoop—right back in and you're like, "Damn! Next time!"
Lisa:
21:35
Get the ball through the goal!
Rick:
21:35
Yeah, it became a sport, where like, every time, you know, truly trying to be her coach, like it's hold-push, it's going to come out a little tiny bit more. And you go through that each time. And it's like the, it kind of excitement to, to get to that point where the baby finally comes out, which is where the funny part maybe comes in in my world. I, you know, I'm into comedy I guess. So I find things funny that maybe the average person doesn't always think is funny. So you know, the initial thing, when the head started coming out from the my viewpoint, you know, you're watching this process and you just see a little bit and there's a little bit of hair, and like, whatever. And obviously the whole head wasn't out, it was literally the tiniest part of that. So in my mind at the time I was like, "Wow, the baby's so small!" and then I'm thinking to myself, "What's wrong with you? That's the tiniest part of the head, that's not the whole head." So finally in that last push where the head came out, in that literal exact moment in time that Mariko was, you know, upright pushing, and the baby's head popped out, they turned the baby or whatever they did so now the baby's face is up, and Mariko's face is up and it's the baby's head coming out of, you-know-where, just her head and Mariko in mid-push. And they're like both—the baby's crying and Mariko's like, "Aaaagh!" and the visual of the baby's head coming out where it's coming out and Mariko staring at the baby and they both have like the same expression on...I just started laughing. At that point I was delirious and I just started cracking up. It was like a cartoon, but at the same time amazing. And then the baby came out and being able to, to witness that and see the—Mariko's body fall down, the sigh of relief in that moment and the baby come out. It's, it's overwhelming. It's beautiful. It's overwhelming. Being able to cut the cord, the whole thing. And again, like from the classes looking at the doctor when he wanted me to cut the cord and telling him we wanted to wait to do that for a minute and try to get as much extra time with the cord there as we could. And then, then I cut the cord and, and just, you know, I don't know, it's just beautiful. Like seeing the baby go on Mariko for the first time and the sigh of relief for both of them in that moment is beautiful. So the baby does a whole lot of work, too. So it's just—all comes together in that moment and it's, it's well worth it.
Lisa:
24:28
And how were you feeling in this moment of the birth, Mariko?
Mariko:
24:31
I feel like I didn't really, like there was almost...I didn't think an actual human was coming out until they handed me the baby, where—it's just not that—I would see her on the sonograms and all of that sort of thing. And, and Rick, you know, Rick was coming up to me and he was like, "She has hair!" And I was like, "She does? Oh." He's like, "One more push and I think she'll be out!" and, "She's coming out!" But yeah, when, when she finally did come out, and they, they placed her on my belly and, and they were doing the cord thing and then I just remember she like, I just don't remember, like, because I was so tired at that point. My eyes were closed and I just remember kind of just like feeling her with my hands. And even when she wasn't like kinda like nuzzled in my neck, just holding her and Rick has this like awesome photo, too, where she was like grabbing my hands and she was just like, just came out. She came out smiling, too. We have this awesome photo where she's smiling and holding his finger. It was amazing. I couldn't believe it. I think I was in complete awe and amazement, when she was just kinda on me and I was like, "Oh my God, there's an actual human being here." It was, it was surreal. It was a surreal moment. And also it was also a relief, too, I think. It's like, it feels like you were running a marathon for hours and then you're kinda like at the end and it's like quiet. And it was great. They were able to, you know, give us time with her. So I was able to do, we were able to both do skin-on-skin for an hour. They didn't take her away or anything. But yeah, that was, it was awesome. And then I think a little, somewhere in between there we had a lactation consultant from the hospital come in and just do like the, you know, preliminary prep and getting the first latch. And she was really good. I mean I'm lucky in that sense. Because she was super alert and she was even picking her head up right after birth, which I guess from that, that video that we watched—what was it, "The Birth Crawl" I think it was, or "The Breast Crawl."
Lisa:
26:41
"The Breast Crawl." Yeah. The UNICEF video. It was in the "Amazing Talents of the Newborn" video.
Mariko:
26:46
Yeah. When I saw that I kind of realized how strong newborns were too. But seeing it for the first time and seeing her kind of lift her head and my doula is like, "Oh my God, amazing!" Like, she's lifting her head up off, you know, off the chest and like kind of positioning herself and just being, you know, stronger than this, like little, like, I don't know, like you have like this idea that they're like this little, like I don't know the word for it, but yeah, she was full of life in that sense, she, we were able to get a really good batch, but I feel like the next two days was like all we were doing was just practicing that. But she was good in that sense and my doula was able to help me with that too. And it was great to have her there as well because she stayed with us until we got into our private room, which wasn't until, I mean when everything was kind of settled and—we probably were in our private room after midnight. But she stayed with us the whole time just to make sure everything was good. And you know, Rick was able to go down stairs and kind of deal with some stuff and get food and just kind of get us settled in and she was able to hold the baby when I was kinda just, you know, with the nurse for a second. So that was great. Because the baby never really had a moment where she was alone. I think one of my favorite memories of that whole experience was: we're in our private room, our doula leaves and after all the nurses come and introduce themselves and Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, like, "Okay you're breastfeeding" or "We'll leave you alone, and make sure you do this, that and the other thing." And we're in the room and it's dark and she's in the little bassinet next to our bed and Rick is like sleeping on this pullout couch and we're whispering to each other like we're in sleepaway camp, like talking to each other about like the best parts of the whole night. We're like, "And then this!" and like, "We should really go to sleep because she is gonna wake up," and like, 'You know what was awesome?" And like we felt like two little kids and then we'd like both look and we're like, "There's a baby over there. Like this is amazing."
Lisa:
28:40
It's wild, isn't it?
Mariko:
28:44
It was—when she moved and we were like, "Oh my God, she moves!" Like it was just, it was an awesome feeling.
Lisa:
28:51
And you were at Winthrop hospital, right? Out on Long Island?
Mariko:
28:54
Yes.
Lisa:
28:56
I always just like for people who are listening who are local and maybe looking for a birth place and so, you were happy with the care, it sounds like?
Mariko:
29:05
Yeah Winthrop is great and for a hospital I think they are definitely honoring of, you know they're...Being in a hospital setting, I mean I think if I ever had another baby I'd probably, I have more confidence now obviously to try something else. But in terms of being in a hospital and the security of that, they are definitely up to par with trying to, you know, be as natural as possible and give you like some amenities that that are available. The Bluetooth Monitor again I think is a huge, huge thing where they just stick it on your belly and you're able to walk around. Because that I was, I was loving that. Not having to be stuck to the bed and you know, laying there because that doesn't feel good.
Rick:
29:49
But I think that it's like, all those things though are...a big part of that I think is because of your class, because we went into the hospital knowing what to ask for, knowing to have some kind of idea, at least at the bare minimum of the things we wanted. Where if we didn't take the class, we probably wouldn't have asked for a Bluetooth Monitor.
Mariko:
30:12
Right. Yeah, that's true.
Rick:
30:14
Right. You wouldn't have been trying to walk around and stand as much maybe or, I mean they weren't pushy. They don't bother you. They, they pretty much leave you to your, to yourself for most of the time.
Mariko:
30:26
Until it's showtime.
Rick:
30:28
Yeah, but if we didn't know all those things, it's very easy in the heat of the moment to, to just say yes to stuff because you don't know what's going on. "Oh yeah. Okay. Okay, sure. Okay, whatever."
Lisa:
30:39
So true.
Rick:
30:40
So it's, it was a huge part of that, is knowing all that stuff
Lisa:
30:45
And in your situation with being induced, you were going to have to have continuous monitoring. So it was great that the wireless was—the Bluetooth—was an option because otherwise it would've been so much more restrictive to be tethered to something.
Mariko:
30:59
Yeah. And uncomfortable because we checked in the night before ,and you don't get great sleep. I mean the labor beds are like, it feels like a piece of wood.
Lisa:
31:10
Not comfortable.
Mariko:
31:12
Yeah, they're not, they're not the best. It's not comfortable at all. So just the times I did have to sit in there, sit on the bed or kind of lay on it. I mean, early contractions, not an issue, but I could, I could see if you didn't know, you know, about being able to walk around or you didn't want to walk around or whatever. But I could see how you end up sort of just in this, in this world of, "Okay, we're gonna do this now." "Okay." "Then we're gonna give you this." "Okay." Do you want an epidural?" "Sure, why not?" Dah, Dah, Dah. Like I could just see how you just end up in this situation where, you know, it's not always bad. Sometimes that's good for someone. I'm not knocking it because I went in with an open mind. And I think that was also something I needed to do for myself. I wasn't going to be upset if I got an epidural, I wasn't going to be upset if I had a c-section. I just wanted to have a healthy baby. That took a lot of pressure off of, you know, my mind going into it ,where I was, you know, because you don't know what's gonna happen in the moment. But I, you know, I did have the knowledge of wanting to have a natural birth, as natural as I could, and it ended up happening, you know, the best way it could happen even through an induction, which was huge for me. Really big.
Lisa:
32:28
Yeah. That is big. Because those sensations are often a lot harder to cope with, so it's really remarkable that you were able to...
Mariko:
32:35
Because I mean with the induction too, they had to give me pitocin.
Lisa:
32:39
That's what I was going to ask. Do you remember which drugs they did? So it was just, they just started straight away with pitocin, or did they do cervadil or cytotec before that, or a Foley balloon?
Speaker 2:
32:49
It was cervidil over—was it overnight? Yeah. Cervidil overnight, then they took it out. And I wasn't, you know, because my body didn't kick in its normal process or whatever. So I think by noon is when they started the pitocin and that was actually, I mean I don't know how that could be otherwise because this was my only experience. But I do know that it was manageable. Like however they were kind of making it go through—and I did have like those rest points, you know, I did, I never had the natural birth without that. But the knowledge that from the class and all of that, having an actual contraction and then having the rest point, I was getting like the rest points that were, you know...
Rick:
33:30
Well they were very good. They were going gentle with it. They were just slowly, slowly seeing what it did and they'd increase it a tiny bit more. So it wasn't like, you know, they give you a whole bunch of it, then all of a sudden you're dilated. It still took a while and you know, I guess it felt as close to [inaudible] we wouldn't be without it, to a degree.
Lisa:
33:52
Yeah. And you never know how a person's body's gonna respond to it because sometimes even when they do, they always do a small dose and very cautiously proceed and increase, but, but sometimes women's bodies just go, "Whoa, this is a lot! This is too much." Even in a small amount. So it's nice that it seems like it had its intended effect for your body, including like your perception of it.
Mariko:
34:14
Yeah, a lot—yeah—a lot of it was just being able to know what was coming next, I think.
Lisa:
34:19
Rick, do you remember across the labor, in the first stage of labor, before pushing, how did you and Bori—did you tag team? How did you guys work together? What do you, what are your memories from like in helping support Mariko?
Rick:
34:34
Well, I mean for, for a good portion of it, Bori wasn't there. Right. We called her more towards the end.
Lisa:
34:43
That's right, you said seven centimeters. That was like quite ...
Rick:
34:45
And we had a pretty good handle on it most of the time. Just us two sitting in the room. So I mean really the biggest thing was just trying to keep her cool when she wasn't having contractions and just kind of take her mind off it, talk, listen to music, whatever we could do. Let her get a break. And when she was going through contractions, I think a lot of it was using the rebozo and massage and just constantly being in it with her while she's having the contractions, you know, staying with her, not taking off, not leaving the room, all that stuff. Because you know, I've heard stories of people doing things like that. Like, you know...
Lisa:
35:25
Thank you for not being that person. Mariko thanks you for not being that person.
Rick:
35:37
I mean it's, but that's, you know, it's the small price to pay in that sense is, I mean it's the least a guy can do. We can't go through the rest of it. So it's really not the biggest deal to, when your wife's having contractions to rub her back or you know, talk her through it or just just be there. There's not much else you can really do except for just be there, be present and be in it.
Lisa:
36:05
What kind of massage or like what parts of your body, Mariko, were you needing that helped? Like specific parts or techniques?
Mariko:
36:16
It was the lower back. And I remember when Bori came because you were, he was kind of doing the lower back thing and I guess the constant standing for Rick and like all of this just being the, being the support person...You know, Bori came in, she set up, you know, the diffuser and kind of brought fresh energy into the mix too, after being there with the induction. But she was asking, you know, she was asking Rick like, "Look, what's going on?" or whatever. And he was like, "Tends to be the lower back. That's the only thing that's helping." And then she was like, "Okay." And then she just kind of took over and was just, you know, during the contractions, like she was on that spot and then Rick was able to kinda like, you know, focus on other things. But it was, it was lower back and feet. I feel like the feet were kind of grounding, too. Not so much massaging my feet, but even just like holding. Yeah. Yeah. That was just kind of like grounding me in the moment. And I don't know, maybe it's sort of also just like the gravity of it, too, of just wanting things to kind of shift, you know, down and out. You know, it's probably sort of like that motion that was helping. Yeah, super helpful. And even... I can't remember the...
Rick:
37:31
It's like, it's waves, it's like it's waves of the ocean. It's—the wave comes it, you ride the wave and it settles down and you try to catch your breath and then it happens again. You get used to it after a minute of, of the—used to the flow of it at least. And then it's, you know, you time it and you just kind of know what's coming and then you prepare for it. And you know it's gonna, you know, dissipate, so you're just like focusing on like the fact that it's, it's going to go away in a short amount of time is kinda like what helps, I think is, instead of focusing like, "Oh my God, this hurts!" It's like, "Yes it hurts, but in two minutes it's gonna stop and we'll be good for a little bit." So it's just focusing on, on that aspect I think helps keep the motivation going and the energy going. Because I can definitely see how it would be easy to go the opposite way or get too tired or, or kinda like fall into, you know, something opposite of that kind of flow. So I think it's just important to, to stay on top of it and, and just ride the wave.
Lisa:
38:40
Mm. So then going back to, after birth. So you said the lactation consultant was there right after birth and then how were the, how was the rest of your stay there?
Mariko:
38:51
It was, it was helpful. I mean, I had a really great nurse when we transitioned to the—it was probably like a rotation of like three nurses, but they were all super great, super, super nice. Anything you need. So there was times where, you know, it's also a lot like, I didn't realize how—you watch videos of people breastfeeding and it looks super easy. And with practice it gets easier, but there's like so much going on because all of a sudden—you just gave birth. So for me it was just like, you know, just like the pains of giving natural birth and all that. But, but the coordination of holding the baby's head, getting her latched on to, to the nipple, and then also like massaging your breasts before she latches on and then holding your breast a certain way so it can get into the—that whole process where I was like, "Whoa, what is happening?" Like, "I'm not gonna be able to do this!" And you're tired too, and you're crawling up out of it and you're like, "What, what, what is happening?" But the, the great thing is the nurses are, they were awesome. So like there was times where I'm like, "Oh, I don't know if I'm doing this right. I'm not sure if I'm getting a good latch" and you know, I'd kind of just press the button. They're like, "What's going on?" I'm like, "I need help getting a latch." And I just did that numerous times throughout, throughout the day there. And they would, you know, they would come and they'd be like, "Is it okay if I touch you?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm fine." Like "I just need to feed the baby...with any help." But they would get the—great, you'd get the latch. The more times you practice, obviously the easier it is. And the funny thing is like after a few weeks of going through that process, the baby's kind of doing it for you. Like she knows or he knows like what's happening and then they kind of just hop on themselves, which is pretty awesome to see.
Lisa:
40:39
Yeah. Yeah. One thing I want to mention is when you said there was a lactation consultant, I always just want to point out: check—expectant parents listening, just check with your birthplace to see if your birthplace has a lactation consultant, because that would be—a specialist, not just a postpartum nurse—because not all postpartum nurses have a lot of expertise in breastfeeding. So it's always just good to know if there is specifically an IBCLC, ideally, an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant on staff or per diem, who's available for you after you've given birth. Yeah. Because that's...
Mariko:
41:16
I think there were actually classes too going on.
Lisa:
41:18
Wonderful. Yeah, some hospitals offer that. Did you go to any of those?
Mariko:
41:22
I didn't end up going because I was getting sort of a great latch with her, and I was, yeah, I was, I just wanted to spend as much time with her and just be in the room and kind of just be in our bubble. But yeah, they, they did have classes that I think you go, you know, you'd probably go with a group and you were able to kind of, you know, go through that with a group of people, if that's your cup of tea in that sense. But we were definitely in our own little bubble and people are, you know, visiting and, we're, we're doing good with that. And I remember being very excited when she had her first, you know, urine diaper where the nurse was like, "That's great. That means she's getting stuff." And I was like, "Oh wow." But it's, it wasn't easy. And you know, there was, you know, there was ups and downs with it. There was, I did have to supplement in the beginning, when, after we got home, just because I guess waiting for the actual milk to come in and she was crying. So I was very, we had like a comedy moment where I'm calling the pediatrician, like, "She's crying, what's happening?" We left a message at like three in the morning. But she, she wouldn't stop crying. And she, she was, I was in a cluster feed, so she was going every 10 minutes and, yeah, five in the morning, six in the morning, just nonstop. And I was like, I might have to supplement her or, and I wasn't planning on it. I had nothing. I didn't have—like I didn't have bottles, like formula anything. Then Rick ran out to the store in the middle of the night.
Rick:
42:56
I mean, it was my first real dad moment. Walking into CVS in like pajamas at three in the morning, not knowing what I'm getting, what I'm doing.
Mariko:
43:06
I didn't even know... I mean it was helpful for that night until the milk came in. I think we gave her like an ounce if that. And she kind of went to sleep and we looked at each other. I'm like that...that's it? Like that, that's all it took? and you know, I'm sharing this again because there was, I took all these classes, I had a doula. I wanted to have like the perfect birth, right? Like you wanted to just go into labor at home, have your water break, go in there and all these things. I think also going into everything with an open mind and being like, what ends up happening doesn't mean like an end-all-be-all. It doesn't mean that you have to be upset about it at the end of the day. And I remember kind of struggling with that because I did have these like expectations with breastfeeding but she was still breastfed. But having that moment of being like, "What are we going to do? And what's happening?" And having almost like our first parent moment too with how we, how you're feeding your child is sort of a big decision. And breaking away from my, my idea of "breastfeeding is going to be this easy thing" and I'm having the middle of the night run where it's like, "Am I really doing this?" And I'm like screenshotting things and I'm like, "I think this is good. I'm not really sure." And I'm like, "I think we got bottles from our baby shower." I'm like, "But you can't use them right away. He's like, "What do you mean you can't use them right away?" I'm like, "I think you have to sterilize them!" But we got through that night. It happened. And then it was funny cause I think a good friend of mine was, was breastfeeding at the time, so it was great that I was able to text her about it or whatever. She was like, "That's fine." She's like, "Just wait." She's like, "Your milk didn't fully come in yet." She's like, "You're worried about not having the milk." She's like, "And then it's going to get to the point where you're spraying your baby in the face." And that's what ended up happening. Like literally waiting for the milk man to come. 72 hours, I think we're here. I was like eating all the things I was supposed to like make milk come, but yeah, your body does what it what it has to do.
Lisa:
45:15
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm so glad you brought the supplementation up because another, a student of mine I interviewed recently also supplemented and she, she had had a pretty rigid thinking of like, "Oh no," like "All is lost if we supplement at all." Like, "No, no, no." And then somebody brought to her attention: no, you can still breastfeed—just think of it as a bridge. You know, while we're getting to the goal, we have a little bit of a bridge because "fed is best," you know, and yes, breast milk is ideal and but, but it doesn't mean that we can't have a bridge if we need it when we need it. Yeah. I love what you're, that you're emphasizing the flexibility. That mindset is so important so that you're not, you're just able to roll with the punches more easily because this is such an unknowable process. Birth and breastfeeding and parenting in general, it's all very unknowable.
Mariko:
46:11
Yeah, it opened up my perspective on so many things, too and it, it made me, you know, I'm already sensitive to other people, but it made me that much more sensitive, too, because there was a time where I'm holding the baby, I'm exhausted and I started thinking about people that end up having like a c-section too where I'm like, it's that much tougher, too, if you have like a scar and like it's hard—it probably hurts to hold the baby and breastfeed and all this stuff and you really realize like how strong women are, no matter how you birthed your baby in a sense of, it's just like the, the strength that, that this tiny human is here, and how beautiful it is and everyone's journey is so unique, and going through that process with an open mind is so, so helpful because at the end you just want your, your baby healthy and happy and thriving and everybody has to make different choices, you know, so it shouldn't be so rigid. Like you want to have like your ideals and like how you want things to be. But reality isn't that in that sense, you know. Life happens, things happen and being open minded I think is—just for me it just took like a big weight off my shoulders kind of going into it that way. And with the formula thing too. I want to say that even going down that opened up this whole other thing that I wasn't even aware of in terms of what formula is made out of. It brought me into this whole other like, rabbit hole. And then seeing what's available or like you know here and what ingredients are in there. And you know, we both tend to eat healthy. I was healthy throughout my whole pregnancy and you know, supplementing her with formula, it was great for that night, and then in times where she needed it, but she wasn't having a great reaction to it. And that was one thing that I really noticed where it took me down another path where I was able to find really great organic formula. So I kind of do want to say.
Lisa:
48:11
Hipp and Holle?
Mariko:
48:11
Yes. Yeah. Holle. So yeah. So for people that are kind of, you know, supplementing, or if they're having issues with breastfeeding or if they have to take medication and can't breastfeed for a certain time, I think like kind of looking at that too is helpful.
Lisa:
48:28
I'm so glad you brought that up because I think, I don't think I was bringing Hipp and Holle up yet when you guys took my class. Probably. I just more recently started learning about that from some colleagues. So I'm glad. I'm very glad you brought that up.
Rick:
48:48
The difference between the Holle and the stuff you would buy at CVS at three in the morning...substantially different.
Lisa:
48:56
Totally different as long as you get Hipp or Holle from a reliable place. Because I don't, did you guys see the New York Times article that came out recently that was kind of bashing it? But like I didn't really agree with some of what they were talking about.
Mariko:
49:08
I think, I mean it's, that sort of comes down to people not preparing something properly. It has nothing to do with the formula itself. They, they weren't making it correctly and have had an adverse reaction, which—it's not the formula. It could be anything that you're doing that with.
Rick:
49:26
We've had zero issues on that. As opposed to, we tried initially the two whatever major brands, and just ust the difference in the color of her feces, and all of that, is just—the Holle's is reminiscent to what we saw in breastfeeding. The other stuff just wasn't at all.
Mariko:
49:52
That was, yeah, that was, I was just like, there's so much. Like I felt like I was googling stuff every day. Yeah.
Lisa:
50:01
Good for you. You're being your baby's own best advocate. Fabulous. I'm glad that you did your research and you found something better for her.
Mariko:
50:09
Yeah, it's amazing. A good friend of mine, one of my best friends, actually, her daughter, she had her baby in France. When I had shared with her just the brand of formula that, that I had found and I'm like, "Oh, you know, I'm supplementing with this now." She's like, "That's what I gave my daughter in France" like eight years ago. I mean, before it turned into this thing here. She's like, "Yeah. At the time," she's like, "I just went to the store. I wanted to find something as natural as possible." She's like, "That's what my daughter had as an infant." I'm like, "Are you serious?" Like it's just such a different world. Yeah. So that was sort of, I, I took that as like sort of, you know, it's almost like us being slow to the game a little bit in terms of what's available.
Rick:
50:50
Well, we are in a lot of ways in this area of things. Yeah.
Lisa:
50:55
Mmhmm. Are there any pieces of wisdom or tidbits you would want to share across the four months that you've been parents so far? Anything that you—like big piece of advice—you would want to give them?
Rick:
51:07
I might be biased to this because it's partially what I do. In terms of, of music, I do, like sound therapy, things like that. So as soon as the baby was born, I was, I couldn't wait to start playing music for her, you know, but in those early two weeks in the crying and the pacing around the room and, and trying to comfort the baby that doesn't really seem to want to stop crying, and I would do "ohms" like the, the mantra ohm. And I didn't know if it was gonna work. I had no idea. I think Mariko had left to go make a bottle. She went downstairs and I was like, oh, what do I do? I don't know how to make the baby stop crying right now. So I just started singing ohms in a, in a deep voice and as soon as I did that her eyes like looked up at me like, "What is that?" and I kept doing it and 10 minutes of just repeating, repeating it, she fell asleep. And I just kept doing as time progressed, she got more and more used to it then it was, singing bowls and a, and a kalimba. We've got videos of me playing the kalimba and her just passing out. So music, you don't have to play an instrument. There's plenty of music out in the world that you could get—there's studies on it and all that—that definitely soothe the baby and it does something, you know, to, in their mind. It gives them a sense of comfort. It helps reduce anxiety and all these things. So having music, even the white noise and things like that, it all really, really helps early on because once they get acquainted with it, they'll be looking for it. And the minute I play her a new sound her eyes light up. If I have her in the car and I put music on, I sing to everything and her eyes light up and she's watching me in the baby mirror in the backseat, in my rear view mirror. And she's just like watching me sing. It's—music is I think is a really easy, useful tool in those beginning stages and obviously in all stages. But
Lisa:
53:23
Yeah, I've written so it was so many, just kind improvised so many different songs for our kids over the years. I love, I love that. If you make any videos of you—it sounded like you might have have done that, please post them on my Birth Matters Facebook page or, or somewhere. I just yesterday found this video online of a dad with a guitar and the little newborn like sprawled—have you seen that? Just like totally drugged and just falling asleep with the vibration of the guitar and his lovely voice and oh, I loved it so much. So when you were saying those different instruments, it was reminding me of that video and I was like, oh, I want to see you with your daughter doing that.
Rick:
54:07
Oh yeah, we have like I took a video today. Even now if she does tummy time and I have like this tiny little drum in her room that I play for her and—like a pan drum, like a metallic, you know, a tongue drum. And I always just, I just left those two instruments in her room basically. And every time we would play, you know, the musician in me is like, "I'm going to play music for her constantly. So maybe one day she's going to be a musician" or whatever, but she really didn't care so much in the very beginning with the drums and the this thing and that thing. And it's just like, you know, dad trying to bombard his baby with the things that he liked, but she started to get more receptive to sound around three months where it became a wondrous thing. Like, "What is that noise?"
Rick:
54:58
Rather than overstimulating. Yeah.
Rick:
55:00
Yeah. So now that she's there, you know, tummy time, she's eating her little toys and she's having fun. I look at her and I'm like, "Okay, you ready?" And I'll count to three or four and I just start playing and then all of a sudden the legs are going, she drops the toy, she's staring at me, she's moving around. So it's like instant, instant. So it's, I think it's important. I don't know if it would be instant if I didn't have, if I wouldn't have started that right away. So I think, you know, it's nice to have the exposure of that stuff for them. You know, when she's older, whatever she wants to do, she can do. But I think, you know, music does set off a lot of things in your receptors and your neurons [inaudible] the brain have so stimulating them with music I think is super, super important.
Mariko:
55:51
With breastfeeding in the beginning I would kind of play like the same sort of track for her every time we kind of got settled into it. So it was sort of like this like happy association, and I remember there was one time because one of it was sort of like this, I think it was sort of like mantra-based song or whatever, but it was like a little faster, faster pace. But I remember like holding her and I was kinda rocking like this while she was breastfeeding, to the music and her little like mouth, like smirked up in a smile and she looks up at me or whatever. And I was like, "Oh my God," she's totally like, she was like, "I like this. I'm like being rocked and I'm eating and I'm like, we're listening to music." And it was the coolest thing. Like looking down on her and seeing like her little smirk, like creating these like little rituals. Super helpful. I think having a routine with them is so helpful, and we're still doing that where it's the, we're doing like eat-play-sleep routine, and that's just awesome because you know what's coming next and she knows what's coming next and you're able to kind of like see her cues. So that helped us with the sleep too. Because she ate, now she's playing. I was doing tummy time from the very beginning. Once that little umbilical cord fell off, I mean she was sleeping on her belly, you know, I'm watching her but the minute she's playing, when I'd get one yawn and I would just transfer her, I wouldn't, we would try to catch things before she would start having the really like "I'm tired!" And like flailing. So I think those types of things were so helpful. And when I was home with her in maternity, like I'm like, oh I know within, I know how long she can stay and wait. Like when she was, you know, super little. It was like 20 minutes, 30 minutes and now it's sorta we have her, we kind of know where like she's going to get tired in an hour or she looks a certain way, but having that eat-play-sleep, eat-play-sleep sort of just repeats itself over and over again.
Rick:
57:50
That's, I think that's a good point, though, because it's making things familiar and recognizable to the baby is, is huge. Even like when we talk about music, right? Like making like a morning playlist on Spotify and a sleep playlist and you play that same playlist every single day, every single night. They hear the music, they know it's time to go to sleep. Associating things for them that makes it easy for everyone. Maybe that's the mindset is, is not like, "Okay, we're new parents. We don't know what we're doing. How do we figure this out?" It's more of like the baby's also new. She's this new little human who knows nothing. So it's all of you together learning to be together. It's not just how do we take care of this child? It's learning. And melding all together and then she understands your cues and you understand her cues. It just takes a little time. But I think staying as much as you can with, with things like that and helping them figure life out in that way makes it so much easier to take it along with things.
Mariko:
59:00
And just having fun. I think like, the biggest thing that we both were just, we were having a lot of fun with her. I mean even in newborn stage, I have so many videos where we're like talking to her and she's like smiling with her eyes closed, just listening to our voice and we're like having like this being silly. Yeah. Being like silly and like, because you can get caught up in the moment, too, being sleep-deprived and hungry and baby's hungry. You're hungry. And it could get to you, but at the end of the day you're like, if this is short-lived, I'm like, why try to rush through it? Because I remember having a hard time with the sleep deprivation in the beginning and being like, "How long does this last? Oh my God, can I make it? Like this is crazy, this is so hard." And I remember having a moment with her and I was rocking her, and you know, like the rocker and I looked down and I'm like, "Why am I trying to fast forward?" I was like, "Why am I trying to fast forward through this moment?" I was like, "You're only going to be this little once." And I'm like, I'm only like, it's so short lived and being on the other side of it after the three months and now she's four months and how, how much they changed and how much they learned in that short amount of time, looking back, I'm like, it's really a blip. It feels so hard in the moment. But really being in the moment with them is amazing and I feel like the hardest was just—it's funny. In the middle of the night would be the hardest obviously because you want to sleep and you're constantly waking up and you're breastfeeding or supplementing or whatever you're doing. No matter what, you're still up, doing the cycle with them. But the funniest thing would be like once like once the sun came out I was fine. Like it just felt like a new day began and then she would give me like a newborn-like smile in her sleep and I'm like, this is like...
Rick:
60:48
Yeah, I mean talking about it now, it's probably helpful maybe for anyone who is going to go on that journey in the beginning—it's, it's hard. It can be totally hard, but it's also beautiful and rewarding. But I think simple things that make that first two to three weeks easier with home life stuff is having, you know, half-prepared meals or things that are really easy. You know, sometimes it's frozen mac and cheese, like you know before you get to the house and you have that baby—because once you get to the house and you have that baby with you for the first time, you're going to feel frantic. You're going to be overwhelmed, you're emotional, you haven't processed, you know what, you just went through.It's a lot. So whatever you can do that's just everyday things that are maybe a little preplanned or a little pre-setup. So in the morning, you know someone's got the baby, you know the coffee's already in the coffee machine, you just hit the button. Like little silly things make the biggest difference when you're tired and there's a lot going on. So it's—think about your daily routine now before you have child. Write it down or something. And how can I make these 10 things easier that I do every day? Because when I have a baby, they're not going to be easy anymore.
Lisa:
62:16
It's crazy, isn't it, how the smallest thing suddenly seems so hard.
Mariko:
62:21
It's interesting too because I think our relationship changed a lot where we have been living together and we've been married, we've been together for a while, but I think you get so much more mindful of each other once a baby comes into the picture because you realize how much you need from each other. And being aware of that too I think is so important because there was mornings where let's say I'm downstairs and the baby woke up and he happens to still, you know, he's the one upstairs and being with the baby, and I was going to just get a break for a second, but your mind's full. I'd be coming upstairs with two cups of coffee instead of just thinking about myself. You're leaving the room and before you leave you're like, "Hey, I'm going downstairs for a second" or "I need to go out" or something, whatever it is. And it's like, "Do you need anything?" Like you're that much more mindful of each other and you're, I think that was super helpful. Like Rick thinking about things that I needed that I wasn't even thinking about yet, where he'd be like, "She's sleeping, go in the shower. You should, you should go in the shower right now, while you have the moment." Or I'd go downstairs and need food. He's like, "I have her." Like it, it, you become like so much—I dunno, your relationship changes in kind of like an awesome way too, because you're just sort of, it's like you're raising a child together and at the same time you're falling in love with the baby and you're falling in love with each other all over again, and then falling in love with watching your partner become a parent and become a dad or a mom. And it's like this overwhelming like experience. And I think, you know, there was moments that it was hard and we were stressed out or—but being like in the moment and being like appreciative of each other is huge. I think that really helped us a lot. It really did.
Rick:
64:09
Yeah, because even in the beginning, you know, there was a few nights where it does, could totally get to you, you know, and she's crying and crying and crying and crying and you're tired and exhausted. And there was definitely a few nights where I just felt so frustrated where you just want to put like, you know, sound isolation headphones on, and you can't. And I think in those moments that support structure and all that and where it's like, alright, you know, you see I'm getting a little stress levels rising and your stress level's not as high as mine, so I'm going to go for a walk or I'm going to go outside for five minutes and breathe some air, and then we'll switch when your stress level gets high. So it's a big deal. I think those little things, giving, helping each other have a break when you need it to kind of recharge or just breathe.
Mariko:
65:01
Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was eye-opening. I mean, and it was, there was a lot of funny moments too when I was, you know, I was, I wasn't pumping, I couldn't wrap my head around pumping for whatever reason. I think I was just overwhelmed. So I was like, "I can't even look at that machine. I don't even what it does." Just exclusively breastfeeding. And she was cluster feeding a lot, trying to get my milk supply up and, and Rick's like, "Holy cow, you've been upstairs all day long. Like you haven't eaten. Like this isn't like, what can I do?" He's like, "I feel helpless" and Dah, Dah, Dah. But there it was just a funny moment where I was like, "I'm starving and she's, you know, I'm breastfeeding her" and he came upstairs with a bowl of salad. I'm breastfeeding her and he's feeding me salad. We're looking at each other and I'm like, "Is this our life right now? Is this really happening?"
Lisa:
65:57
Wild, right? But I love that you guys were, have been selfless toward one another and really, like you said, mindful and intentional with balancing that load and complementing and helping each other. Because I think that's when couples get into trouble in this time in their life, if they're not able to get outside of themselves and not able to—or not trying to—be intentional with lifting each other up and helping each other. So that's such good wisdom. I'm so grateful that you shared that.
Rick:
66:26
That's huge. I mean, we're also both big meditators, so maybe pre-baby it may be a good idea to meditate with your partner. Yeah, just close your eyes, be together, breathe. And that's it. You don't have to know a crazy technique, you don't need to take, you know, a year long meditation course, just count, breathe and just be in that silence together because you're going to need those tools and it's the nice free simple tool that anybody in the world can do. So I think, you know, learning a little bit about or watching some youtube videos, whatever you gotta do to, to figure that out. It's worth exploring because it helps and brings you together too in a different way. So it's really nice thing to—road to go down.
Mariko:
67:17
And then I guess another thing that I kind of want to add too is, I had an idea, I mean that I had a lot of experience with my niece and nephew. It's completely different when you have your own child, but I had this idea like we were going to come home with a baby and like my routine, somehow our routines were going to stay the same, I think. I think I thought that, I think I thought I was still going to be able to cook dinner and, and the baby was going to sleep like, you know, four hours at a time. She wasn't one of those babies. I know some newborns do. She never was and she still isn't, but, I kinda just had this idea that things were going to be a certain way. And then I had ideas that I was going to be working out, you know, once I got the clearance from the doctor, just different expectations I had for myself. And then also different expectations I put on myself becoming a mother. And I was like, "I'm going to be this way and that way." And then I was kinda thinking about how I was parented, and all of this like sort of noise. Where I remember one day I kind of woke up with a baby and I'm like, "I'm still me, but I'm a mom and that's okay." Like I, I kinda like just got rid of all these ideas and things I read and how I'm supposed to be a different person or I'm going to change. And kind of was like, this is, this is the now and it's okay. Like I don't have to fit into this mold. I don't have to fit into this perfect thing. You're not going to figure everything out overnight. You're not going to be cooking dinners every—and if you do God bless you! I sort of, I kinda, that was a little bit of a shock to me I think, because I thought I was just gonna—we're going to take care of this baby, no problem. And I was still going to be like cycling through my days as I did before. But I had to let that go really quick, and kind of honor the space that I was in and, and really nurture yourself as you're nurturing the baby, because your body just went through so much. And I, I think like being in New York too, like you're so used to being like, go, go, go, fast pace, you bounce back, you're doing this, you're doing that. And you see a lot of that like on TV, like where people have a baby and then they're out. And, even people I follow on Instagram or whatever, they're out the next day and I'm like, I can't even walk down the block.
Lisa:
69:34
Yeah, you're sore!
Mariko:
69:34
But letting, letting that go and being super gentle with yourself. And knowing that during—like sorta like your landscape and the rhythm of your day has changed, but you'll get back to that place that you were at, just different now. It's gonna be—because now I'm back to work. Yeah. I'm back to work now. There are some days that I'm, I cook dinner. There are some days that I don't. Rick's mom, my mother-in-law, has been amazing where she's brought so many like meals over and cooked things and then that's been a really big help. But yeah, it's just sort of being gentle with yourself and not kind of putting pressure on yourself and really enjoying the time. Because it goes, it's going quick and this is only, I'm only four months in and I'm like, "Oh, like, where's my tiny baby?" Like she grew four inches already. Like it's, it's crazy and they change so much. And those moments that I was holding her constantly all day long, and I'm like, "Why won't she sleep in her bassinet? She just wants to sleep on me." I'm like longing for that now. Because now she like wants to be on, on her belly. She wants to be playing, she wants to be held upright and I'm like, "Why won't you nuzzle in my neck anymore?" Enjoy it. I get it now. I got so much advice from you know, moms that I work with and friends of mine that were just like, "Just stay in the bubble, stay in the bubble and enjoy it because it's not, you're not going to get it back."
Lisa:
71:05
Thank you so much you guys. This has been such a wonderful chat. I've loved all your insights that you've given. They're fantastic. I'm especially keen on the whole music therapy thing. That just delights me. All right, well, thank you again. Appreciate it very much.
Mariko:
71:22
Thank you.
Lisa:
71:22
I hope to see you soon. Bye.
Mariko:
71:24
Bye.
Lisa:
71:25
So, there you have Mariko's and Rick's birth story. I wanted to briefly elaborate on three things. The birthing ball, eating in labor, and monitoring. Mariko mentions a birthing ball. This is an exercise ball that can be hugely helpful in labor for various purposes including sitting on and rocking. I'll link to information with more reasons you may want to consider having an exercise ball for your labor. I do want to point out that if you're giving birth in a hospital, you should check and be sure not only that they have them, but ask if they have them for every single room. Often they don't, and then if they're occupied when you get there you won't be able to use one. It's something you should be able to bring with you and that you also may want for laboring at home. If you purchase one, you want to be sure it's large enough that your knees are not higher than your hips when you sit on it.
Lisa:
72:16
In general, I find that the majority of my students prefer the 75 centimeter size, especially for a specific partner supported squatting technique that we try out in class. I'll link to my Amazon list in the show notes where you can find a suggested ball and other recommended tools for labor and early parenting. Mariko also mentioned a law that was passed about eating in labor. I think what she meant was not that there's a law, but that there is strong evidence and recommendations to support the importance of being allowed to eat and drink in labor. The outdated reason that it's been prohibited is that back in the day there was a risk that if a person had to go under general anesthesia for a cesarean, they could aspirate the food or drink, meaning it could get into their lungs. You'll see that in this report that anesthesia has made so many advances over the years that this risk is almost nonexistent. And not just that. Also, the vast majority of cesareans don't even require a general, but rather use epidural or spinal injection for numbing instead. I wanted to say a few words about monitoring, since Mariko brought up the wireless Bluetooth monitoring that was used at Winthrop. Usually for a low risk labor intermittent monitoring is the best approach, with an eye toward minimizing unnecessary interventions. The definition of intermittent monitoring usually means around 20 minutes of monitoring of every hour, and at least 40 minutes off the monitor so that you're more free to move around. When just about any medications are introduced and with the idea that with any strong medication there comes risk, it will almost always be necessary and required by the hospital to use continuous monitoring, as was necessary for Mariko's labor. This wireless option helped her to maintain some freedom of movement. If you are low risk, I recommend advocating for yourself to have intermittent monitoring and then asking your birthplace if wireless monitoring is an option in the event that continuous monitoring becomes necessary. Or if you have risk factors that necessitate continuous monitoring, definitely find out if wireless is an option and advocate for use of that in your labor. If they say wireless units are available, ask if they're used much in reality. Here in New York, many hospitals say they have it, but when folks show up in labor, they're either not charged or there's no nurse on staff who's trained in how to use it. So it really just depends on your hospital. A number of doulas here in New York keep saying that wireless monitoring is a little like a unicorn. You hear they exist, but more often than not they're not being used.
Lisa:
75:09
Rick made a short YouTube video of some of the sound explorations they’ve done with their daughter, Emiko, for you to enjoy. He also shared a Spotify playlist he created for babies for me to share with you. It’s full of music that has helped soothe Emiko during sleep and relax times, and includes some of Rick’s work, but also music from all over the world. And, if you’re in NYC and are interested in attending a sound meditation led by Rick, please visit his website to see his upcoming events at pranasoundstudio.com. You can find links to all of these things in the show notes over on birthmattersshow.com. Before we go, have you reviewed the podcast yet? We'd be so grateful if you could post a review, as we want expectant parents to be able to more readily find us. Thanks so much. Here's what's up next week.
Speaker 4:
75:59
The nurse comes up to me and she's like, "You can hold on to me." She takes me by the arms, and she said, "Hold onto my shoulders." I'd never seen or met this woman before, but she had heard me in the shower and she said, "Okay, so now we'll harmonize together." So basically like the midwife said to me, "Why don't you sing the song you wrote for her?" Because they assumed I had written a song for her. And then I did. And then her head came down and stayed there. ---END---
Doula Bori with Emiko
