In this episode, Kat & Tom share their positive, empowering story of their 2nd son’s rather efficient birth at home with midwife Cara Muhlhahn (who just happens to both have been my midwife for my 2nd baby and also is the main midwife featured in the documentary THE BUSINESS OF BEING BORN). Other birth support team members were their doula and a friend who just happens to also be a doula. This birth followed their much more challenging first birth in a hospital environment, which largely informed their decision to give birth at home the second time around. Do keep in mind that this is a 2nd birth, and 2nd births (as mentioned in Episode 3) tend to go more quickly and unpredictably than the vast majority of 1st births.
Resources in this episode:
The Business of Being Born* (documentary)
Leigh Cohen, a friend & Alden Moore, their doula.
Kellymom.com info on the safety of alcohol consumption while breastfeeding
NY State Paid Family Leave - info for employees
The Root Therapy NYC - Kat’s practice
*Disclosure: Amazon links on this page are affiliate links; Lisa will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Transcript
Lisa:
0:00
You're listening to the Birth Matters Podcast, episode seven
Kat:
0:04
Being able to—within an hour of giving birth—take a standing shower and actually feel clean, like that was such a huge self-care element for me to then be like, "Okay, like now I can have my hot toddy. Now I can hold my baby that was just born 45 minutes ago, but like I just need this for my closure of this experience."
Lisa:
0:34
Hey there, and welcome to The Birth Matters Show. I'm your host, Lisa Greaves Taylor, founder of Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education and Labor Support. This show is here to lessen your overwhelm on the journey into parenthood by equipping and encouraging you with current best evidence info and soulful interviews with parents and birth pros. Please keep in mind the information on the show is not intended as medical advice or to diagnose or treat any medical conditions. On today's episode, Kat and Tom share their positive, empowering story of their second son's rather efficient birth at home with midwife, Cara Muhlhahn. Other birth support team members were their doula and a friend who just happens to also be a doula.
Lisa:
1:27
This birth followed their much more challenging first birth in a hospital environment, which largely informed their decision to give birth at home the second time around. Do keep in mind that this is a second birth and second births, as I think I mentioned when I told my daughter's birth story in episode three, tend to go more quickly and unpredictably than the vast majority of first births. Before we jump into the story, I want to let you know that this episode is brought to you by Birth Matters NYC's Childbirth Education Classes. If you live in the New York City area, the best way to build your confidence and prep for an amazing birth and entry into parenthood and to connect with other expectant parents to build your very important support system is to attend group childbirth education classes. You'll spend quality time with your labor support partner in our comfy Astoria living room classroom as you prepare for not only birth but also for your best possible postpartum recovery and wellness as well as early parenting with classes on breastfeeding and newborn care techniques. Classes often book up about one to two months in advance. So be sure to grab your spot on the early side. For more information and to sign up, visit birthmattersnyc.com. Okay. Without further ado, let's jump in.
Lisa:
2:43
Hey you guys, welcome. Thank you so much for agreeing to share some of your birth journey experiences with us today. Why don't you introduce yourselves and say where you are in your parenting journey and then you can launch right into your birth story. One or both.
Kat:
2:57
I'm Kat.
Tom:
2:57
And I'm Tom.
Kat:
2:58
And together we are Tom-Kat, and we have two kiddos, Ryan, who's almost three and Henry who just turned one. And together they are Hen-Ryan or Henry-an, depending on who we like more on any given day. So we talked about talking about Henry since it's kind of his, his first birthday has just happened. And so it's kind of nice to celebrate that anniversary and kind of ritualize it by a retelling of the narrative of his tale. And a lot of his tale was developed because of Ryan's tale as well. But because of Ryan's tale, perhaps just some foreshadowing for later, for another session, we were blessed enough to be able to plan for a homebirth. And so that was what we were planning to do in our apartment, in Astoria, and we wanted it to be something special and something memorable as as many do. So we set about to kind of figure out what that would look like for us. I had an interest in birthing in a pool, so that was something that we had set up in a few days in advance and didn't really, I wasn't like set on anything, but that was a piece that we wanted to have had a wonderful midwife, Cara Muhlhahn, who is fabulous. She's like a CBGBs-like-forever person from the Lower East Side. And...
Lisa:
4:21
Totally. And, and just as an aside, she was my midwife from my second birth as well.
Kat:
4:26
Yeah, I think that's actually how we connected with her, at least one of the, one of the weaves that led to her, her being in our tale.
Lisa:
4:36
And in case it's of interest to listeners, she is the main midwife who is featured in the film Business of Being Born.
Kat:
4:45
Yeah, so she would come sometimes to prenatal visits wearing like, you know, this beautiful jacket that had this like orange fur, you know, a top, and was always very vociferous and very warm. And so that was kind of how the journey sort of began, getting her in place, knowing that we had a doula that we had worked with for Ryan's birth that we wanted to use again, who, her name is Alden, she's fantastic, from New York City Doula Collective. So that was our initial birth team. And Cara came to my home for all of my prenatal visits, which is like rare, I know.
Lisa:
5:25
Golden! One of my favorite things about about homebirth.
Kat:
5:28
Oh my gosh. So nice. Particularly because, you know, throughout my pregnancy I had like a, you know, I had one year old, so you know, it was 18 months, you know, and I'm like getting more and more pregnant and you know, when am I going to have time to go to somebody's office in order to do this or trek my kid with me down to the Lower East Side to go to her office. Like that was not happening. So it was really nice that for those prenatal visits she was coming to the home, you know, she was familiarizing herself with our space. Ryan was getting familiar with her in our space, which is his space and feels safe for him. She was really good about like including him and, and I had gotten a fun idea leading into it from my friend Leigh, who is also a doula and runs the Astoria doula collective, to get him, get Ryan like a little medical kit so that he could participate and feel included, which Cara was like really receptive to.
Kat:
6:22
So it was kind of, I mean Tom didn't get that piece of the story cause he was at work whenever we'd be having these appointments, but that was kind of a, a good intro, and he kind of—a warmth that was, that was initially there. I had had some, you know, traumatic elements of my hospital experience with Ryan. And so I had some specific things that I wanted to advocate for myself with, and most providers, including the midwife covering for Cara when she was on a vacation, you know, definitely would not have let me get away with some of the things that Cara let me get away with. And Cara herself had said, you know, she would not have let me get away with some of the things she let me get away with if I had not, you know, known myself so well. But also if I had not already had a successful live birth. So because I was super-low-risk and you know, was pretty active in my pregnancy, I was able to avoid the gestational diabetes testing entirely.
Lisa:
7:13
Nice.
Kat:
7:17
So when it was coming close, I remember there was one night we were waiting for Tom to come home from work and I was feeling it. I was like, "This is it. Like this is happening tonight." And so I like—recording a video of like Ryan coming out of the bath. And I was like, "Are you ready for a baby brother?" And he was like, "Yeah!" And I was like, "Oh my God, we gotta get this on tape." So I start recording and I'm like, "Are you ready for a baby brother?" He's like, "No." I was like, "Oh no," but good news. He knew something I didn't because it was absolutely not. It was definitely like Braxton Hicks. It was like not a thing. So like I felt so silly because I was like, "I should know these things. I've had a baby like I should, like I know what's up," but I did not know what was up.
Tom:
7:58
I feel like each one of those made it more and more acceptable and he kind of found his way to start to grow towards it. Really started it. It was, you know, each one of those interactions, he kind of, our first son was starting to just come to that realization. Like there's, there's—not that it wasn't—there's no possibility of going back, but it's just that he started to accept it and really understand. So I think it was good. Those, the more interventions that we had at home, those kind of comfortable interactions, all of those added up...
Lisa:
8:32
Warming up to it.
Tom:
8:34
Yeah.
Lisa:
8:36
That makes a lot of sense.
Kat:
8:39
Yeah. Yeah. And so, and so that kind of goes to part of like what the plan was, right? Like we always like want to have a plan and I said that to one of my providers with Ryan and she was like, "It's preferences, you know, like plans, plans go awry, but preferences, you know, give you kind of something to start from." And so, you know, some of my preferences for Henry's birth were, you know, to kind of, you know, start in early labor by having like, you know, this like womb women's circle thing around me and like maybe some drumming. I think the plan was we were going to have a drummer be present for the birth and like kind of help with like pain management, which would've been really, really cool. And the gentleman's name was Caleb and Leigh had set me up with him and I, I very much think it would've been a really awesome element. It's one that did not end up happening. Second births tend to go very quickly and mine certainly did.
Kat:
9:33
But so I had this whole idea of it like, you know, starting with, you know, being surrounded by this like wonderful healing and celebratory, you know, feminine power energy. And then like everyone kind of leaving once we got to the active part and like me jumping in the pool and Cara being there and Alden being there and Tom being there and Ryan being there and Ryan being in the pool with me and like I had this, you know, I had all these wonderful preferences and it didn't happen. But then looking back on it, it kinda did happen. And so what ended up happening was on the day of his due date, him in 3% of babies, he, he decided it was time. And so the whole day I think I was in labor starting at like probably 9:30 in the morning, but it's just like very, very early, nothing much. And because I'd had that whole week leading up where I'd had a couple of times I was like, you know, "This isn't real. This isn't real. I'm sick of this. This is ridiculous." A friend of mine was having a barbecue on her rooftop and I was like, "We're going to the barbecue and ignoring everything. Like we're just going, like....These stupid things, they're totally gonna resolve the moment that I'm around other people and I'm excited and not focused on them." And so we went and then of course, you know, Leigh is watching me, you know, while I'm there and she's like, I'm like getting down really carefully. Like "Ooh," and like breathing as I'm doing. So like all trying to get down and play with the kids and doing it. But like every movement was like so specific and so careful and she is like, "Um, so have you been in touch with your doula? Like, have you contacted Cara? You know, maybe you might want to do that. "And consequently, because this is the way life happens. I had been in a very, very slight parked-car car accident where a truck had backed into me while I was waiting for Tom and Ryan to come out of swim class. So the car was messed up and so the car had been in the shop and the car was ready. So I was like, "We are picking up this car before this baby comes." So I was like, you know, "These stupid Braxton Hicks, like, they get me every time, I'm not falling for their tricks again. I'm going home. But Tom, you're going to get that car. They close at 6, we've got to leave the party now. It's 5:30. Go." So, so he went to get the car. I walked home again the whole time like, "Ooh," like, "I'm just going to stop at this light, because—woo—like these Braxton Hicks, they're really getting me.
Lisa:
12:00
Now, Tom? Tom, what are you thinking right now?
Tom:
12:03
I definitely thought something was up and it was definitely happening. I rushed over there as fast as I could and I got out of there, but I also kind of knew that Kat like specifically was, it was like her one request that she was so adamant on it. So I was like, "I'm doing this."
Lisa:
12:19
You've got to do it. "Yes, Dear."
Tom:
12:24
And get home as quick as possible.
Kat:
12:24
Go get car. Life doesn't stop moving just because I'm having a baby. As I was leaving, Leigh gave me one piece of advice that I have since given to every one of my clients who is expecting, which is so helpful, which was to get in the bath, and that for whatever reason,—I do not know the science behind it—that if you get in a bath and it's Braxton Hicks, then they will resolve. But if you get in the bath and it's real labor pains, they will intensify, and so that was my goal. My goal was to get in the bath just to like let these Braxton Hicks get out of the way. Because I was done with them for the night and I wanted to enjoy my time. So I took that advice and also took her other advice about getting in contact. So I just let Alden know like, "Hey, like, just letting you know I'm experiencing some contractions. It's pretty sure it's Braxton Hicks, but I'll be in touch, if not." She was like, "Great, sounds good. Keep me posted. Should I be in the area?" And I was like, "No, I think it's Braxton Hicks. We're good." And so I go home and again, like you know, Ryan's playing, he's wanting me to play with him and I'm like, "Ooh, Buddy." Like, "I don't know if I can really focus with you on that toy." Like, "Mommy's in a little bit of pain. These stupid Braxton Hicks." And so then by the time Tom came home, that's when I think I drew the bath and got in and Tom started being like, "Well, maybe we should call Cara and maybe we should, you know, do these things." And by now, what time do you think it was Tom, at that point when you came home?
Tom:
13:44
It was probably 6:15, 6:30. But at that point, I also started to—I think you were a bit in denial on, kind of like, it was happening. You kept kind of pressuring it was the Hicks. And I think at that point I started to count between breaths and I'm starting to notice there was definitely rhythm that kept progressing and I kind of remember, I vaguely remember kind of counting it up and just thinking that the numbers didn't sound right. It was, it just sounded too far advanced in some sense. So I was, I was kind of skeptical of whether I was doing it right, what was necessarily going on. So I know there was, there was definitely confusion in my, my mind when that was happening.
Kat:
14:28
And this may be a good point to point out, like I don't think we ever got the concept of like tracking contractions and like the time of like, you know, five one, one, four, one, one, whatever. We never got that. And it may be in part because both of my sons were sunny side up,. So that was a part.
Lisa:
14:51
Are you, when you say that, do you mean kind of like that the frequency was erratic? Because that's often a sign of a posterior baby.
Kat:
14:59
I mean...I was in it....
Lisa:
15:02
Yeah, that might be more of a question for Tom.
Tom:
15:04
I actually, I, I think, Kat, partly is—you have a pretty good control of your breathing techniques. I mean you've been practicing in a lot of different, you know, yoga and other kind of studio breathing exercises that you've done over the years. And I think you kind of had better control or you, you were changing what was I guess in some sense— because every time you tried any of the techniques of counting or figuring out the, the breaths or sounds and kind of—also a little bit of your, your own pain management that at least I've kind of learned is, is through sound, is through breathing. You, you were using those, those to, you know, I, I think lessen the pain or lessen the focus on it. And I—that (and I know this) for the first birth really threw anybody off trying to, to count or to try to figure out, you know, beyond, you know, really understanding when, when kind of pain hit or not. So I, it was always hard to nail down and there'd always be some where you're just like, "No idea," and it messes up a timing or anything. And I tried tracking it, we tried tracking it in both, but every time it was kind of all over the place, it could be, you know, this stage or that stage. Just hard to—hard to hit.
Kat:
16:30
Yeah. So I got in the bath and Tom and Ryan are there and the bath is not fun and the contractions are not fun and they are getting more intense. So like fun trick. Totally works. Yay, Leigh. Thank you for that. And thankfully Leigh's also my neighbor. So, and she, as a friend, had agreed to be present, so she was like, you know, my one-woman like woman circle. And so I, you know, felt really good that like she would be there, which also made me a little bit more blasé about contacting my legitimate providers, which maybe shouldn't have been the case, but also she was still at the barbecue. So like not right across the street the way that she usually is. And I did not want Ryan around. I was like, like "Get you away from me. Like I can't deal with you."
Tom:
17:13
He actually wanted to take a bath with you.
Kat:
17:15
I initially wanted him to get in the bath with me. But like then the pain, so, like, no. So I think he was like splashing and creating little bubbles for me. Like a little jet pool, which was kind of sweet until it got to be too much and then it was time for him to go to bed. And we had a really fabulous babysitter who had been with Ryan since he was three months old who I had asked to be a part of it, who is also—another Astoria shout-out—the leader of Tiny Tunes, Nikki, who is wonderful and she has been a rock of an everywoman for us since we first met her when Ryan was three months old. And so she was kind of his baby doula, which I, which I love, but we ended up not needing her to come because, as Cara says happens a lot of the times with her second-baby births, it happened at night after bedtime. And so he was asleep. And so when things started getting a little bit intense— and Tom, correct me if this is not like the next stage of things—but we did call Leigh back from the barbecue just to kind of put Ryan down to bed and like do the bedtime routine with him so that Tom can focus on me. And so, you know, I'm out of the bath now because—no more bath. Couldn't stand that anymore. And I'm, you know, on my birthing ball in the living room and I'm like carrying my birthing ball to the bed and I'm like, you know, all over the apartment and all over the places, you know, trying to escape the pain in one room, it's going to be better in the next room. It's not, it's not. Sometimes it was a little bit easier but most of the time it just sucked. And Tom was doing things, I assume he was doing things, important things, in the background. Tom, what's up? What were you doing?
Tom:
18:57
Well, I was calling everybody in. I think at that point I started everybody calling in and I remember that the conversations with Cara was, she was like, asking me all the questions just to kind of verify that it was at the right stage and it was almost a little bit of—she was kind of shocked. She's like, "Wait, wait." But from what I was telling her and from what I was counting it was definitely time, and she was kind of shocked that we hadn't called them earlier. At this one point I put, put you on speaker phone, Kat, and she was listening and she's like, "I don't need to hear anymore. I'm already in the car."
Lisa:
19:33
That sounds similar to our birth with her. She's like, "Why didn't you call me sooner? I told you to call at the first contraction." But like you're saying, Kat, like you think, "Oh, it's not—like, we've got plenty of time, if it's even the real thing. Anyway, sorry Tom, go ahead.
Tom:
19:49
Yeah,
Kat:
19:50
I was thinking of you every moment that I was laboring on my toilet. I was like, I don't want to have this happen. Like not, this child is not being born on the toilet bowl. It's really very comfortable to labor on the toilet.
Lisa:
20:05
Yes. Magical place.
Tom:
20:08
It did feel a little chaotic, you know, for that little bit of time because you were definitely pacing around, Kat, between the house in different spots, just trying to find something that was comfortable and, you know, at the same point I was just in contact with, you know, everyone to make sure that they were coming in and you know, was trying to make the decisions of like, it's based on what I was getting, you know, looked like it was a couple hours away, an hour away or so. I was just waiting from there, waiting with you.
Kat:
20:39
I think partly one of the, at least one of those calls was happening in the bedroom and this was like right after I had gotten out of the bath and I, I, the whole time, like in all of my birth planning meetings had been like terrified of the mess of homebirth and I like wanted to like basically cover our entire apartment in like chux just so that like [any mess would be fine?] And Alden's busy being like, "Let's explore that a little bit more. Why are you so afraid of the mess? Like, we've got that for you." And Cara's busy being like, "I'm a professional, I have got this. I deal with much more, you know, anxiety-ridden clients than you, there will be no mess." And I'm like, "I don't trust either of you. I was there for my first birth." And so something about in that moment, I was like, "It's time to put on one of those Depends. And truly, like within three minutes of me putting on my first pair, my water broke.
Lisa:
21:34
That was actually why I went to the toilet, because I thought my water was about to break, and it did.
Kat:
21:39
I mean I didn't know that that was what was happening, but I like was like intuitive like stuff happening and there would be a mess so like, "Let's just be preparative." So that was, you know, kind of fun fact to very much listen to those intuitions.
Lisa:
21:53
Yeah.
Kat:
21:54
And so, and we—oh yeah, there had been an issue with our birthing tub. We'd set it up four days in advance.and through that process had figured out that there was a very small hole in it.
Lisa:
22:04
Oh No.
Kat:
22:05
So Cara was bringing a second birthing tub with her as a backup. And so, you know, while I'm going between my stations, like she and Tom are like setting up the second birth tub, getting it ready so I can have my like watering birth. I never stepped foot in the tub.
Lisa:
22:22
Just like me.
Tom:
22:27
We worked on getting it set up. But.
Lisa:
22:29
Yeah, you were prepared just in case you had time to get the water in the tub.
Tom:
22:33
I think it was as soon as it was ready, we mentioned it to Kat and she's like, "No! I'm not, like, not moving." You were at that point.
Lisa:
22:39
Oh, so you did get it filled?
:
22:41
Oh yeah, yeah. She was in the next room.
Lisa:
22:43
We didn't get that far.
Tom:
22:44
She had already started to get pretty comfortable. You were in the bedroom and just at that point didn't want to leave. And I'm like, "Okay, well. Whatever. Moving on"
Kat:
22:54
And so I labored in like a variety of different positions, you know, on the bed, beside the bed, and you know, yadda yadda. And, you know, at this point I have, you know, my three, my three witches and Tom and like everyone is there, kind of taking on different roles and being active and doing their things. And you know, it was also really graceful because Leigh is a doula, but she was also a friend and so she was there as a friend, and knew that Alden was there as my doula and she just did such a great job of flexing to that. And so she would do a lot of like the preparation elements in the other room, you know, bringing the bowls, kind of being like the birth assist—just kind of being in the background as needed and letting Alden kind of be the hands-on person who's like massaging me. I will totally have more babies just so I can get more people massaging me and like just have more excuses to get massages, because that's why people have kids. Right? Yeah. So that was, it was really nice that they, they didn't, none of them knew each other going into it, but they developed this wonderful partnership and kind of beautiful dance, as they all kind of like verbally and nonverbally communicated with each other to kind of adapt their roles and that I had providers who were flexible enough to be willing and able to do that.
Lisa:
24:10
I am getting chills right now because the way you're describing this is like utopia. It is all too rare.
Kat:
24:18
Yes.
:
24:18
In terms of what I hear in these birth stories.
Kat:
24:21
Totally. Yeah. And that's, that's the big takeaway for Leigh too, right? Like, like in, you know, being in that doula role, you see a lot of births and a lot of births are not happy and a lot of births are not perfect and a lot of births, you know, can sometimes be traumatic. Things happen that need to happen that you weren't planning for and you really hoped against and then things happen that maybe didn't need to happen, but you know, it, it was just a crappy situation. And so, you know, I'm very sensitive to that. And that's why I don't share my story as often, but, and also probably why I was in part excited to do this with you because I did have an opportunity to share what truly was, you , an ideal, ideal birth experience. And so, you know, that we got, we're getting closer and closer and lo and behold, I find myself leaning on our hope chest at the foot of the bed that I got with my mom from a woman in Danbury, Connecticut who had bought it at an estate sale once, hoping to restore it, but her kids were young when she did that.
Kat:
25:21
And so like fast forward like, you know, 30, 40 years and they're downsizing in order to move to Florida and this thing has never been restored. And we drive up, me and my mom and my like nine-month-old Ryan at the time to go get this thing and bring it back so that we can restore it someday. And it is of course completely not restored because that is the position that I was in when Henry was born and leading into, you know, those last few minutes, I just remember, I remember Cara kind of saying, "I'm just going to like, I'm just going to help you out a little bit." And she's definitely, you know, using two fingers to hold back my cervix. And she's like, "Do you—are you feeling like you want to push? You do what you need to do. Like I'm here, like I'm just going to respond to you. You do what you need to do." And she's like, "It's gonna feel a little uncomfortable but like, I'm just going to help you out a little". And she's like, "How are you doing? Like, you still want to push?" And I was like, "Yup, Yup. Wanna push." And I was very acutely aware because this happened with Ryan as well, where they were telling me like, "Don't push, don't push, don't push." And I was like, "My whole body wants to push. My kid is coming out the wrong way," which I knew with Henry and I didn't know with Ryan. So, so I was just so relieved to not have to not push. I was just so relieved that somebody said like, "You do what you need to do." And what I learned in hindsight was that Cara was only able to do that because I was her only person that she was working with. You know, that would never have happened in a hospital where she could commit to having two fingers holding back my cervix for me, if we were in a hospital setting. And that, you know, I mean it, it made a world of difference for me truly. You know, because technically from what Cara identified as labor, which is always not fair when the hospital's like "You were in labor for 15 hours," it's like "No, that's when I arrived here and you took me and admitted me like I've got a whole day at least before that." Even in this, the second child that goes so fast and you know, to me, I was in labor since 9:30 in the morning, but to Cara, I was in labor since 6:30 at night. And so Henry ended up being born at 9:14 at night. So it was like super short, super quick. Ryan went down at like 8:00 PM, you know, like that's when all the action happened between 8 and 9:15. I mean, Tom, talk about when Sarah arrived and Alden arrived and all that.
Tom:
27:45
Yeah, Cara got there at eight o'clock. I think Alden got there at like 8:15. It just all was really, really quick right after that. I mean, I think Ryan went down to bed at around eight o'clock, so it really helped to—it was really great to have help putting him to bed. I know that probably didn't even phase you, but he was very awake and very curious.
Kat:
28:13
And very concerned, I remember you saying.
Tom:
28:15
Yeah, he was really, really concerned. He's like, "What's wrong? What's wrong?" And he wanted to be with you. And at the same time, I'm, we're making the decision like we don't want him to stay up. We don't know how long it's gonna go and it's just going to kind of maybe add some stress. So we're trying to put him down for bed. Trying not to major be involved with you, Kat. We're really trying to keep him away so you didn't really get a sense of that. I mean he was kind of bummed to see you in pain. So it was, it was a little rough like that kind of moved on and you know, trying not to keep you involved with that. And that was the other thing. I tried not to make sure that you were a party to, you know what I mean, the logistical things that were going on in the background. Because I just knew you needed, you were focusing, I wouldn't make any decisions or want to make decisions, but it—I mean once it happened and once Cara was starting to set things up. She put down a little blanket for you and you were kind of in your position that you kind of found at the foot of the bed over the hope chest. You know, she, she was kind of making signals to me and you know, kind of letting me know like it's, "This is now," you know, like, "It's happening right now." And she was not telling you that. And I do remember that she was kinda just saying, "You do you, whatever you feel, whatever you feel." And now I think at some point you're like, "Can I push it out?" And she was like, "Yeah, yeah." And you were—I just remember this. You like couldn't believe that that it was that far along, that it was already happening.
Tom:
29:47
And you would ask like, and she's like, "I'm seeing a head," and you know we were all seeing a head, and you just didn't believe it. I think you kept expecting it to last several more hours or to not be as progressed, because when you first hit that stage or at least that feeling of, you know, wanting to push and everything at the hospital, there was still another seven hours, the first birth, after that. Whereas when you wanted to push at this point, it was only 20 minutes before Henry was born. So I just remember you were really shocked and kind of understand—like that it had progressed that far along and that we weren't necessarily, or at least Cara, I think Cara definitely knew that it was happening in the next 30 minutes, 20 minutes, 10 minutes. Like she kind of really had a good sense of that.
Kat:
30:30
She was calmly rushed the moment that she walked through our door,. She was like, "Are you sure you want us to set up this tub? Like, eh, I don't know. Do we have time for that?" Yeah. Yeah.
Tom:
30:40
There were a couple of moments when, whenever...
Kat:
30:42
As soon as she walked through the door, she was like, "This baby's being born in an hour," or maybe she told us that afterwards when we were drinking hot toddies on the couch at 9:30 PM an hour after everyone had arrived.
Lisa:
30:55
I love it.
Tom:
30:57
It was super fast.
Lisa:
31:00
When did your son get to meet his little brother? Was that the next morning, I assume?
Tom:
31:04
Yeah, it was the next morning when he woke up. I mean, after, I mean just immediately after the birth, you know. I can kind of set the stage a little bit. I was there, we all helped catch Henry when he came out, you know, immediately gave him right back to you, Kat, and you were able to hold him. And it, surprisingly, was not as—there wasn't a lot of mess or anything like that. It was just, you know, a little bit of blood on Henry, but, you guys hugged and....
Kat:
31:36
Cara was like Mary Poppins, and it's like, she like, she like so under control with everything. Everyone felt calmed by her energy, like truly, like I think she has done a lot of births totally solo. So she was like not knowing what to do with—so everyone just like was aware, like, "Cara's in control, and we're here to support. And through the process, and again, like I know these things because I had the, the, I had the ability to process afterwards with Cara a little bit, but definitely a lot more so with both Alden and Leigh. And they were both like, just in awe of her like competence. And I don't remember which one of them it was, but they're like, "You know, she delivered your baby with her eyes closed. The whole thing was just like with her eyes closed." Literally. And so, you know, it's just that, that level of like, just assurance in like the comfort that that provides to you as a mom to like just like know, like, like everyone around you has like totally got this and...
Lisa:
32:34
And trusts you and your instincts, too.
Kat:
32:36
Yes, totally. That circle warmth around me and literal warmth. Alden had a fan and some like, essential oils that she was, you know, blowing for me, which was such a godsend because Cara would not let us have the AC on. And this is like the end of June.
Lisa:
32:56
What!? I'd be like, "I'm turning that on."
Kat:
32:56
We wanted it to be womblike. Yeah. So, but again, you know, I'm glad that it was, it was awful for like the final labor parts, but you know what, what happened in both cases, after, after the kids were born, I kind of had alone time with both the kids.because I was like trying to do the breastfeeding thing. Tom, like, was tired for some reason. I really don't know why, but I had not accepted any medication and didn't really get why somebody would take the Advil or the Tylenol or whatever was like offered afterwards. And in hindsight, I very much am aware that that was for like the aftershocks, which were awful in both cases, but felt more awful at home because I was at home. And so like it was hot and Henry's asleep and Tom's asleep. Ryan's asleep in the next room and I like, you know, cannot move, cannot get comfortable. I ended up on the couch, you know, sort of sleeping, but then I'd be like hot and then I'd have chills and like the aftershocks were just so intense and I was like feeling the urge to go use the bathroom. So then like going to the bathroom and like, like some blood would come out, and then like, go back and like still try and keep everything neat and clean and like, you know, readjust myself on my chux and then, you know, get up and do the—I mean it was, I was excited in that initial night at home to actually take advantage of the, of the spoken-of five or six hours on the first night that you get with a newborn newborn baby that you don't get in the hospital, because they're like, "Come and feed every two hours." And I did not get it because I did not take my Tylenol, and so I just had, you know, waves of shock that were rippling through me all night long. And I think that was also a weird thing of the actual birth. Right. So like, Henry's out, he's on my chest, we're having this awe moment. It was beautiful. Alden documented the whole thing. But like, he's still like, like there's, I was like, how do I hold this child? Like this umbilical cord is still attached to something inside me. Like this feels uncomfortable. I was like more than happy to be like "Let's get this placenta out," and so I got up on the bed. I've still got Henry who's like doing his little like crawl to get to the boob and do his thing and Cara's like, "Do you want me to do it now? Like we can wait." I'm like, "Nope, nope. Out Out it goes. Like this thing, it's attached. It's like a cord attached to me." Like earbuds are nice when they're wireless now. They did not always use to be like that. You'd be doing your running and then your like earbuds are getting in the way of you going and like doing your power hour. Like that's how it felt. I was like "This cord needs to not be inside me anymore," and that was probably like the least comfortable part of my birth was like knowing that there was like something attached to me that like I needed to be so careful with. Yeah. Weird things that you fixate on. For everyone, it's something different. For me, this birth, it was the umbilical cord.
Tom:
35:50
Afterwards, it was really nice to be at home to be, you know, in a place that is just, you could sit down, you could rearrange and just make sure Henry had a place, you know, it was just really comfortable to all to just be there, not have to think about anything else when you have to go home and do anything like that.
Lisa:
36:13
No constantly beeping machines. Not the constant people coming in and out or potentially a roommate and another baby roommate.
Tom:
36:21
Yeah, just with the first birth, I mean it was like, constantly every couple of hours people coming into the room, you know, whether they needed to do something or not, checking up and it's just, especially for you, Kat, was an exhausting thing to just be interrupted in the middle of sleep.
Kat:
36:39
Right. One nurse likes to take the blood pressure of all of her assigned patients at the beginning of her shift. The next one likes to do it at the end of her shift. So like you end up getting your blood pressure taken twice in the same hour and waking you up to do that, when you just had it done, you know, just because that's like the nurse's style, and they're not really reading the chart. You know, frustrating things like that that just happened because it's a large system and it's someone's job and they're here, you know, x number of days a week, and, you know, all those things. And for me, you know, the, there was a bit of a unique thing, that of course, you know, there's my cleanliness stuff in general, but, but also, you know, cleanliness was an issue in my birth because of a couple of weird circumstances that had happened with the hospital that I birthed at. And so being able to, while in shock, you know, within an hour of giving birth, take a standing shower and actually feel clean, like that was such a huge, like self-care element for me to then be like, "Okay, like now I can have my hot toddy. Now I can hold my baby that was just born 45 minutes ago. But like, I just need, I need this for my closure of this experience. And so like, you know, I had Alden, who was like standing there like, you know, kind of like braced to catch me if I needed to fall, you know, no nurse, no system, you know, liability wise would have been letting me take a shower at that time, you know? And that was something that even I was like, you know, like they were like, "No, no, no, like just be cool." And I was like, "Nope, I'm getting in that shower." And because I had the fabulous birth team that I did and I did give birth at home, I had the flexibility to do that.
Lisa:
38:17
Lovely. Do you remember what the followup was? How soon did Cara come back and what did all of that look like and how soon did you go to the pediatrician? Because that's a little bit different when you don't give birth in the hospital.
Kat:
38:28
Totally. And this is the fun fact. I am O positive and Tom is not. So that means that both of my kiddos have been at risk for jaundice and so both of them had jaundice initially. So dealing with that in a homebirth environment, clearly it was like a relatively mild form of jaundice, but we did have baby well checks and Cara was great, you know, she was able to do the initial infant examinations and care for us. So she did, you know, the, the one-hour, three-hour, kind of got a sense that they were sort of going down, you know, got a sense that, you know, latching had already happened, knew that Ryan had also had this happen and that we'd had a bit more of a traumatic experience with monitoring and the discharge around that. And so she came back—did she come back the next day, babe? She came back the next day...
Tom:
39:16
Yeah, the afternoon. Next day.
Kat:
39:18
She came back the next day and then we already were connected with Glendale Pediatrics and Dr. Nick, who's absolutely phenomenal. I had done a lot of research, I had met with a few different pediatricians and I ended up with him because he had that same flexibility in his style, you know, like when he needs to be directive, he's going to be directive. Just like when Cara needs to be like, two fingers and eyes closed, like she's going to do that. But she, you know, for the things that are a little bit less important, as long as they kind of, they have that sense of who you are and because they have a sense of who you are as a person and as a mom and as a, you know, everything, they have a little bit more give with that. And so that's why we went with him. So we went and in his office, you know, did the blood work for the bilirubin, had the test back. And so that's how we were kind of able to monitor. We also are blessed to have some large windows that get like a lot of direct sunlight. So like having the bassinet during the day and like just in a diaper, you know, giving birth in the summer allows you to kind of do that a little bit more. And so we kind of had some of those pieces, but had we not had those things, Cara was like, "Never fear. I have my own bilirubin light that I will come and like loan to you and set up for you."
Lisa:
40:25
I didn't know that. That's great.
Kat:
40:27
Yeah. So there were a lot of, a lot of resources that we had access to that allowed us to really just focus on being there. So I think it was as soon as—actually it was while they were—I did some weird kooky things with my second birth because I could and people were willing to do them for me for free. So like the placenta art and like the like placenta smoothie. I tried those things. I am neither a huge proponent of them or a huge deterrent of them. That is again, something that I tend to not talk to people about. But while those things were happening in our kitchen— it's fun to use those bowls now—while those things were happening in our kitchen, we were busy calling family and letting them know that Henry had arrived. And so, you know, it was just really nice to be able to kind of have control of the whole process and to be able to invite them to come and not have to do anything or not to deal with the transition, the discharge, any of those kinds of pieces, to be able to focus on creating our space, creating the space for Ryan and then inviting other people into that space and then letting them go. And so, you know, I was up and walking. I know different cultures have different things, but for me, you know, exercise is like the thing that keeps me sane, literally, and so being able to like be out walking and you know, kind of rolling with the punches in those initial days was so helpful. To that I will also add, because this has come up on a couple of Momally posts and it's something that I feel strongly about with the two kids, especially when they're closer in age, is that, you know, like the adrenaline is like so present in those first few days, like, you can do all kinds of things—like and send your father-in-law and your husband to pick up mirrors off Preloved—that you cannot do after that first week. You know, I'm like, "Oh, sorry, I couldn't make it Friday night. I was literally having a baby. But like we can come Sunday morning, with my two day old," you know, like, but that mirror is still not hung. But yeah, so we, we kind of were rolling with it. But again, once that adrenaline wore off, you know, we're looking at this bomb that has occurred because we have a 22-month old and we have a, you know, four day old and kind of the overwhelmingness set in.
Kat:
42:45
And I was lucky enough to have a wonderful church community who brought me meals and wonderful, you know, friends who brought me meals and that sustained us for like a week, maybe two. And then we started feeling really, really overwhelmed and could not put up with the mess that our tiny apartment was and could not put up with figuring out how to care for a newborn again, while still having to keep up with the pace of a toddler. And so we left, we escaped. I called my mother-in-law and I said, "We're coming!" And we went and to let her, she's great, she's a nurse and so she totally knows how to provide that physical support that you need. But we escaped for a week and she would provide care for the kids while like I got to do some self-care by cooking dinner for everyone. So that I still felt useful as a human and as an adult. But then, you know, also like Ryan could be kept busy playing, you know, with water in the yard for hours on end. While I could be like, you know, watching my kid sleep or like taking a shower or feeding, incessantly feeding.
Lisa:
43:50
So that was the three of you that went to your mom's house?
Kat:
43:52
The four of us.
Lisa:
43:53
It was all four of you. Oh, great. I wasn't sure if Tom had to stay behind to work or what.
Kat:
43:58
No, it was, it was the first year of paid family leave here in New York, so, go New York. And so he was lucky enough to take a full month off. So we had a full month together as a family, you know, before either of us went back to work. Because I also, you know, being in my own business I had to go back, you know, at a month too. So we were both kind of, you know, flexing our schedules a little bit using vacation days. Well he was using vacation days. When I don't work I don't get paid. So, so I was, you know, taking that time and then, you know, I do have the flexibility though, so to be able to like do some of my sessions virtually and the world always works. My office is in Flatiron and so there was that water main break that happened right there. So my office building was one of the ones that was closed for two weeks and it just so happened to happen at that one month mark. So I had like the perfect excuse, not that I needed one, but like for me I needed one and I was like my, my office is literally closed. What can I do? I can offer you virtual sessions or you can wait until the office re-opens. And so that gave me, you know, some clients chose to do virtual, some clients chose to wait. And so I ended up having like this nice six week pocket where I could kind of figure things out. But again, a whole 'nother wave of, of anxiety and feeling overwhelmed when like Tom is back at work at the one month mark and I am now alone with these two kids for two weeks.
Kat:
45:18
And it was intense and it was really hard and we were really lucky to have, you know, people who you know, our wonderful nanny and you know, friends who like could take Ryan for a play date so that I could go to mommy and baby yoga at The Giving Tree, which is now The Yoga Room, but it's still just as amazing. And so, you know, we had our village, we had our tribe that was supporting us through the whole process. And I think when I think back to the preferences that we had initially for Henry's birth, that barbecue was with all of the moms and all of our babies who are all the same age. And like that was my women's, you know, drum circle that I had imagined. And so looking back on it, I was really just so in awe of how many of the things I had envisioned came to pass. Not the way that I envisioned them, but the way that they needed to.
Lisa:
46:08
Tom, you have any thoughts on this journey into—from one baby to two babies?
Tom:
46:13
The, I mean first off it was just—kind of on the, on the wrap up, when Henry was, was born in the kind of subsequent weeks and months, for me it was really critical to, to have that time to be able to take the time from work to be able to really kind of experience some of the grueling times. Absolutely no sleep. I think, you know, Kat and I kind of both put our heads in from the first birth and into the second birth, we're both doing all of these things and not committing one person or the other person to specific childcare needs. And so I think other than breastfeeding but, which is pretty daunting and everything.
Kat:
46:56
But you were doing diapers, you were doing diapers.
Tom:
46:58
Yeah. But every, everything. And I think that, I think that was important to really kind of have that exposure, confidence. You know, there was nothing that I couldn't do and there was nothing that you couldn't do in terms of the child's care that we needed to provide. And I think to be able to have that time to be able to experience all of that and to have that confidence...you know, because as a guy you're, you're kind of scared in some sense. Not sure what to do. Is this right? Am I doing this? And to just be thrusted in and say, "You're doing it, you gotta do it, you gotta continue doing it." I think that kind of has helped just in the long term just for us to both have had those experiences to have those crazy poop-mageddons you know that happened, and you don't know what, how you even got there, what happened. So that has been a blessing to experience and it's something, it's always something that we've kind of been able to fall back on and just say, "You know what, we've always been through this together." It's been fortunate to have that at times.
Kat:
47:55
It is a priority. I mean, you know, one thing that I hear a lot and I know that is, is a fear of a lot of dads especially is like the consequences for your career in, in taking that leave even if it is available to you. And that was definitely something that was present for you, too, Tom. And you just said like, "This is more important," you know, and that the kind of the benefit of it being your second and like knowing what the cost is and something that I say to a lot of a lot of my clients who, you know, either are individuals or couples who are going through, you know, expectant and new parent-ship is that parenting to me is like a video game where if you don't level up when you achieve skills, you level up when the time runs out. So if you don't learn how to diaper a newborn baby who cannot move, cannot turn it over and like, you know, can't even figure out what these things that are attached to their arms are that are touching their face (which are their hands), if you don't learn how to do that, then you're not going to learn how to do it when your baby is rolling, then you're not going to learn how to do it when—you know, like it's, it's, it gets harder and harder and you have a specific amount of time to figure it out. And the connection of, of our partnership of being in all of those moments together strengthened us as a couple and also allowed us to level up together so that we both had those skills and I think that if we hadn't prioritized in that way, if one of us had felt like that we needed to prioritize something else, then I think, I think that would've been a lot harder for us as a couple and also as individuals feeling connected to our kiddos and feeling competent in our parenting skills.
Tom:
49:36
Agreed.
Lisa:
49:36
Well, we're running out of time here. I actually—Kat, I would love you, before we hop off this today, I would love for you to share about your, the work that you do. You've mentioned it a little bit, but just specifically I'd love to just give a shout out to your business and I'll be sure to include the link to your work, the work that you do in the show notes for other listeners. So go ahead.
:
49:57
Yeah, I will do that, but I will also say that I'm a little bit on the fence about doing that. So just as kind of a foreshadowing or warning in case, you know, people do work with me or are interested in working with me but don't necessarily know it's going to be me—so, surprise!—that sometimes knowing things about people's personal journeys who are then in that role of teacher or therapist or you know, some element of that, right? Like our teacher doesn't exist outside of the school building and some people need that in their therapists too. So to kind of be aware that if, if having listened to this recording is something that has that intimacy or that causes some sort of, you know, reaction or response because you know, it was ideal and maybe people didn't have that ideal experience and that is something hard for them—that you know, that there are more than one therapist in my practice, that, you know, I am always, especially for my Astoria Mamas, because I'm a part of that community and we've referenced so many different support networks that have been important for my network and that I am, you know, big on, that supporting Astoria moms particularly is something that I have a huge passion for. So connecting to services is something that I will do even if people are not necessarily wanting to have therapy with me for whatever reason.
Kat:
51:11
But I am a mental health therapist. I do have groups for people who are experiencing mood disorders, anxiety, depression in general. And more specifically since having my kids, it's been a real passion of mine to get additional certification in, and training and working with, expectant and new parents and particularly and also helping with traumatic birth experiences because I did hear a lot of those in my new moms circles and using somatic therapies for that too. And so my, my company is called The Root Therapy NYC. We get to the root of the root and family is the root of the root. And the experience of mother-baby is the root of the root. I think Tom and I were actually listening to a podcast the other day and it gave me chills because they were trying to figure out what the unique word or what you could say that if you went far, far back, like if you and a cave man were in a bar, you know, what, what is something that you could talk about that you would each understand? And so they talked to all these different linguists and sociologists and you know, different, different people to kind of get a sense of what that might be. And it led them to a lot of different paths and a few different answers. But the one, the podcast led off with, and it was an NPR podcast was, I think it was the word mom, right? Mom and dad.
Tom:
52:31
Mom. It was mom.
Kat:
52:32
That gave me chills.
Lisa:
52:32
I just got chills, yeah. Oh, that's great. Thank you.
Kat:
52:39
Yeah. So if people are interested in that work, they can check it out at The Root Therapy NYC.
Lisa:
52:45
Wonderful. And you're on social media as well, so you can look her up there. All right, well, thank you so much, Kat and Tom, it's been wonderful to have you both here.
Kat:
52:54
Yay. Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm so glad you're doing this podcast.
Lisa:
52:58
All right, have a great day.
Tom:
53:00
Yes, you too. Thanks.
Lisa:
53:01
Bye.
Lisa:
53:03
So that was Kat and Tom's second birth story. I wanted to just comment on something Kat said regarding taking a bath in early labor. A warm bath can be a really good test to see if you're in labor, and does tend to cause Braxton Hicks contractions to fizzle out. However, in a first birth, it's usually recommended to stay out of the bath in early labor if you're not wanting to slow things down, because in the first hours of labor it can sometimes slow things down to an undesirable extent. The bathtub can be what we call nature's epidural in active labor when things get much more intense later on in labor and won't tend to slow things down. I suspect that when Kat said she'd been told the contractions would only get stronger if it really was labor, our mutual friend who gave her that advice was taking into account that it wasn't her first birth, and that we often don't even pay attention to labor until active labor when we've done it before. Meaning: in active labor, a bath doesn't tend to slow things down at all, as Kat said, but can be a very helpful pain coping tool. Just in case you wondered, "Why would Kat want a hot toddy when she gave birth in the summer?" my guess is that when we give birth we lose a lot of body heat, so it's a good idea to replenish some of the lost heat in the hours after birth. Or if you wondered, "Is drinking alcohol safe with breastfeeding?" as is a very popular question among expectant parents, the answer is that it's safe to drink up to one or two servings of alcohol per week, if you like, while you're breastfeeding. The ideal time to have a drink would be toward the end of a feed so that there's maximum time to metabolize it out before the next breastfeeding session. I'll link to an article on this topic in the show notes from my top recommended breastfeeding reference website, Kellymom, in case you're interested in learning more. Also, Kat mentioned about her baby's being at risk of bilirubin and jaundice. Our bodies have a product in the blood called bilirubin. Babies are born with immature livers—well, really they're born with just about everything being immature—and their livers sometimes have a bit of challenge processing through the bilirubin to then poop and pee it out, which is what needs to happen. So when a baby becomes jaundiced, the most notable visible symptom being yellowish skin, it means their bodies are having trouble getting rid of the bilirubin, which can become toxic to the liver if it builds up too much. Please note that jaundice is very common and doesn't usually require treatment as long as the baby's feeding well and creating plenty of wet and dirty diapers, but it's not nearly as common for babies to have to be admitted or re-admitted into the hospital for treatment. It's something that your pediatrician and or midwife in a homebirth will monitor closely in the days after birth. Another thing Kat brought up is New York State Paid Family Leave. New York is one of very few states in our country that offers some degree of paid family leave, not just for those who have given birth but also dads or partner parents. At the time of recording this episode, we're in the second year of a several year phase-in process so that the first couple of years don't have maximum benefits yet, but almost all parents who work for a company can take advantage of this state benefit. I'll link to more information on this in the show notes, too.
Lisa:
56:28
Okay. That's all for today. Before I play you a clip from next week's episode, I have a question for you. If you gave birth already, would you make different choices if you give birth again in the future? Chime in to the conversation by posting on social media and tagging me @birthmattersnyc. Let's listen in real quick on next week's episode.
Teaser for ep 8:
56:49
I think one of my favorite memories of that whole experience was we're in our private room, our doula leaves, we're in the room where it's dark, and she's in the little bassinet next to our bed, Rick is like sleeping on this pull out couch, and we're whispering to each other like we're in sleepaway camp, talking to each other about like the best parts of the whole night. We're like, "And then this!" and like, "We should really go to sleep because she's gonna wake up!" and like, "You know what was awesome?" and like, we felt like two little kids and then we'd like both look and we're like, "There's a baby over there!" like, "This is amazing!"