Today we’re honored to have on the show one of our esteemed local midwives, Elaine Keller-Duemig. She shares her baby’s birth story at the hospital where she works with one of the midwives at her practice, which is Central Park Midwifery. This is a story of a shorter-than-average first-time labor in which she gets to the hospital in the nick of time. Elaine shares how, experientially, the unpredictability of how labor can go felt kind of surprising. It’s amazing how, no matter your level of expertise, birth will always feel mysterious and unknowable and we can’t get into our heads too much. Elaine will also share about how she became a midwife and a bit about the midwifery model of care.
Episode Topics:
Easy pregnancy with the exception of testing positive for GBS
Staying active in pregnancy
Choosing her own midwifery practice & hospital where she works as her care provider
Early labor contractions start & she goes to the beach, downplaying them to everyone
Getting stuck in traffic on way home from beach and sharing with husband she’s truly in labor
Getting into her head as a midwife (more than she would recommend) thinking baby’s not in a good position
Watching Parks & Rec to distract themselves
Giving midwife and doula a heads up about being in early labor
Strategizing to give herself antibiotics for GBS or have a midwife friend come over to assist with it
Things start to escalate
8:45pm - husband texts doula Maya to come
Bloody show soon thereafter
Elaine does her own awkward cervical check
Spending lots of time laboring in the bathroom
Her midwife colleague (and chosen care provider), Jo, lives nearby so she calls her to come check her
More bloody show and doula arrives
Jo arrives and thinks she’s around 8cm but it’s hard to be sure since the bag of waters is bulging
All 4 of them transferring in a cramped, too-small Lyft with midwife in the floorboard
Realizing she didn’t pack her glasses and she wanted to go back home but no one let her
Water breaks in car -- tip to wear Depends disposable underwear so things stay neat
Pushing soon after arrival and meeting baby
Midwife holds up baby to replicate a pic of Elaine’s birth
Identifying the baby’s biological sex
Importance of planning for postpartum
Early breastfeeding challenges
Tongue tie/lip tie (Tanya diagnosed)
Attending La Leche League meeting
How Elaine became a midwife, describing her educational journey
Elaine’s final tips:
Don’t rule out midwifery care over financial concerns as it can often be worked out somehow
Inquire early with midwifery practices as they’re small and book up early
Get a doula
Take childbirth education classes
Resources:
Jo Zasloff, hospital midwife at Mt. Sinai West in Manhattan - Nettle Wellness (based in Brooklyn)
Tanya Wills, midwife - Small Things Grow (home birth, GYN care, lactation support)
La Leche League International (find local free breastfeeding support groups)
Simone Toomer, postpartum doula
Sponsor links:
Birth Matters NYC Childbirth Education Classes (Astoria, Queens)
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters Show. Today I'm so excited to have one of my favorite midwives with me who is here in New York City, Elaine Keller-Duemig. Welcome, Elaine. So glad to have you here.
[00:00:11] Elaine: Thanks Lisa. It's exciting to be here.
[00:00:15] Lisa: I think you might be the first person who's going to share their birth story, who I've aired on the podcast, who hasn't been a student. So that's a new thing.
[00:00:25] Elaine: Right. I mean, I've had plenty of clients who are your students. Maybe I could just be with you and share my story. You know, pretend that I took your classes.
[00:00:36] Lisa: Absolutely. In fact, I just interviewed just a few days ago, one of your clients and she praised you of course nonstop as all of my students do.
[00:00:44] Elaine: Oh my gosh. That's so nice. I mean, it's really great. It's a really cool thing to share these birth stories and for New Yorkers and, to hear the stories told, from the client's perspective for us to listen to the podcast and like hear about ourselves. It's so wild. It's weird. But also awesome. So. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:03] Lisa: Absolutely. And hopefully we'll have time later on to talk about how maybe how you got into this work and the whole midwifery model of care. But first let's talk about your birth and your pregnancy. Would you maybe like to give us any background on how your pregnancy went or the ways that you prepared for this metamorphosis into parenthood and labor and birth and all of that, as well as like, how did your clinical knowledge and your background as a midwife and your expertise as a midwife play in to the choices that you made in your personal journey?
[00:01:37] Elaine: Sure. I mean, getting pregnant was not such a big thing for me. Thank goodness. You know, as just a couple of cycles and I was certainly, I guess the midwife part of me, like knew what to look out for and I'm just like monitoring my cycle. There's this great book called "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." A lot of people use it and there's an app too, which is like amazing.
[00:01:57] Lisa: I actually just recommended it in class last night, when we were going over postpartum wellness. It's so good. Yeah.
[00:02:02] Elaine: It's a really good book for cycle monitoring and the app is really nice and you don't have to like, try to write things down on paper and charts, which is like, kind of the old school way of doing it. Like it charts it for you.
[00:02:13] Lisa: My mom always did the paper charts. I remember them like right next to her bed years ago.
[00:02:18] Elaine: Yeah. That's intense to me, but, I'm not like a paper person. But anyway, I got pregnant, so that played a role because there was at least one point when I like decided to check my hormone levels, at work. Right. Like, so draw my blood, like sneakily. I actually have taught my husband how to draw blood for me so that I could do these secret blood draws. Which is so ridiculous. And at one point I was like, "Oh my gosh, this hormone is too low. There's no way I'm ever gonna get pregnant." Like, ridiculous. So it's not good to know everything all the time. But my pregnancy was very, quote easy, I guess. The worst thing that happened to me was that I had Group B strep, which is totally not a big deal, but you know, like in the moment you're like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I have this Group B strep. And like, I don't want to get these antibiotics" -- I don't care about getting the antibiotics, actually. It was about getting to the hospital in time to get them. And so of course, the midwife of me, was like trying to figure out how I would get someone to come home to my house to put in an IV and start the antibiotics, like--again, advantages or whatever, and not even advantages, just things that other people don't have that I had because I was a midwife in a private practice.
[00:03:33]But pregnancy was super smooth. And I was like super active. I always exercised like five or six days a week anyway. And nothing changed. I didn't feel sick. I thought I would. The only thing I didn't -- I didn't want to eat fish, so like I didn't eat fish my entire pregnancy. Like it was gross. Not like that I was worried about it, but it was just like, that was my aversion.
[00:03:56] I knew what to expect and it was nice to be able to relate, you know, as a midwife and now pregnant person going through these things. And it was also sort of weird. I didn't tell people I was pregnant. I just sort of waited until they figured it out, which meant that that was a little awkward sometimes, but fine.
[00:04:15]But overall, it was good. I worked, I did all the normal stuff. And I of course decided to go to my own practice. My co-partner at the time Jo Zasloff was my midwife. Of course at the time also Chloe Lubell, who has now moved on from Central Park Midwifery also, she was my midwife as well. So I, you know, I was also a patient at my own practice. But I obviously wasn't my own midwife much to my dismay, because I definitely have this personality of controlling things and trying to midwife myself, which is silly and stupid. And I tend to feel bad for Chloe and Jo for having to deal with me in those parts of things. Like, "But what about X?" Like, I was like that difficult person.
[00:05:04] Lisa: The nice thing is like, you had the advantage of having that relationship already, so they probably already knew what your personality--I mean, they did already know what your personality was like -- Do you think that was a surprise to them or was it easier because you all knew each other?
[00:05:18] Elaine: Well, right. So it probably was easier for them to understand that that's just my personality. Right. And Elaine is always like this. And of course. So that was fine. and of course, knowing them on a personal level, that was helpful too. Really only helpful. It didn't impede on anything in a negative way.
[00:05:40] Lisa: I think it's so cool that you gave birth with your practice. And it makes me think about-- I've had so many different doctors and nurses in my birth classes. There doesn't seem to be any common theme. Some people choose to give birth where they work--at the hospital where they work--and some people don't, and it's very personal reasons, you know, but I think because you are a midwife and your practice is -- it's all midwives, maybe you can correct me if this is a wrong assumption, but it just feels more like a logical connection to give birth with them because it feels more like a family, at least from a consumer perspective, from a patient perspective who, you know, I've come to you guys for GYN care and working with midwives and knowing midwives in general, just knowing you get such a personal touch, that it just feels more like a deeper connection.
[00:06:32] So that, to me, that seems like a very logical decision for you to have given birth with your practice, where others, you know, in a more clinical environment where it's not quite as much of that deep personal connection, at least much of the time the choices are going to be much different.
[00:06:48] Elaine: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I also -- the midwives Jo and Chloe are amazing. But I really love and respect the hospital and the nurses and the doctors, had they been needing to be involved. And I knew that, and I knew that they would take care of me. I've been there for a long time, since -- as a midwife since 2014. But even before, I was a nurse there for like about nine months, 2010 to 11. When I graduated from midwifery school, I had worked there as a nurse for a little while, and so some of those nurses of course are still there.
[00:07:27] And so I knew that they would take care of me in a way that would be special, right. It would be nice to share those moments with them. And I didn't get any kind of VIP treatment or anything. Like I mentioned about B-strep and I had to stay longer because I didn't get adequate dosing and I like didn't get any extras.
[00:07:50] Like, this was when the birthing center was still open and I delivered in the birthing center, but I got transferred out of the birthing center to a regular room, which I had to pay for. So I, like everyone else, had to pay for the private room. And so I think, you know, it wasn't like about special VIP treatment or anything. It was just about sharing those moments with someone so special to you. And, and really the nurse who I was with -- I couldn't have been happier. I know her personally, too, and it was just really nice having her there. And it's like something we still laugh about when we talk about it.
[00:08:28] Lisa: Nice. I love that. Well, why don't you go ahead and start sharing your birth story?
[00:08:34] Elaine: Sure. So my birth story was a bit interesting. I mean really I could, it couldn't have gone better. It was just funny in the moment. It was a Thursday. It was, I was 39 weeks and one day, and I had like woken up for some really light Braxton Hicks and maybe some other signs.
[00:08:54] And I chose to ignore them and like really ignore them. Like be in denial, definitely downplayed to my husband, downplayed so much. I had plans to go to the beach with my sister-in-law and my niece that day. And I really wanted to do it. My baby was born in August of 2018. So it was like super hot summer being pregnant. Terrible. You know, I had had my last birth the day before, which --my midwives took me out of work, off call, like around 37 weeks. So I hadn't been doing births, but this was a scheduled Cesarean, actually, and I chose to be the midwife to go there, which was cool.
[00:09:33] So like the day before I went into labor, I had done this last birth and left the hospital actually kind of feeling sad, like, "Oh, the next time I'm going to be here is like, when I'm in labor," which was like the next day. So I wanted to go to the beach so bad. I also needed to get the car washed. So I had told my husband that I was feeling a little bit of stuff, but it was no big deal, and like, I'm just going to go. Okay. And so I went, I got the car washed and then I went and met them and we went to the beach. It was fine. And I was paying attention in the car and I was totally contracting every 10 minutes for like probably the whole day. But really super mild. And I just pretended that it wasn't happening. It didn't bother me. Of course on my way home, I got stuck in traffic because I left too late and I was coming from Long Beach to Brooklyn and just terrible, terrible traffic.
[00:10:26] Things started picking up in the car and I'm driving and I'm telling my husband that this is happening. He's like, "But it's not painful, right?" I'm like, "Well, it is a little painful." He's like, "Wait, what?" Like, and there's nothing he could do. Like we don't have a second car. It didn't make sense for him to come to figure out where I was. So we just, I just drove. I don't recommend doing that. I do recommend -- as a midwife -- ignoring your early labor. As a midwife, I would probably tell my clients, "Oh, take it easy and rest and ignore it, but like try to sleep and stay hydrated." And I definitely didn't do any of those things, except for ignoring it. I think that ignoring it like that and doing something totally to distract yourself is exactly what you should be doing. Maybe it's not a good idea to drive though. So I ended up coming home after, like...
[00:11:17] Lisa: Especially that far of a distance.
[00:11:19] Elaine: Yeah. I think it took me like two hours, or something ridiculous. I left like at 3:45 and I didn't get home until like 5:30, so it was pretty terrible. Then I don't know, my husband had made -- it's so silly. This is my fault, right? He's like, "Oh, I'll make dinner." And like, we had like sausages and corn, like weird food to be eating when you're like potentially going into labor. Right? Like, heavy, weird food. So probably wouldn't eat that again, but it was fine.
[00:11:51] Then I was in the shower, it started to get, you know, stronger. And my husband likes started to be like, "Oh my God, this is real!" And so, we started like preparing our house, like we have like a guest area. So he was like, "Oh, well, I'll have this ready for the doula if she wants to come.
[00:12:06] Because she lived -- our doula, Maya Kite, who's lovely, and I've known her for many, many years -- she lives really far away like Washington Heights or Inwood, like far up in Manhattan. And we live in Bed Stuy. So we had talked about calling her and having her come and hang out and stay if things seems like there would be like a lull. So he goes and prepares this.
[00:12:29] And I am like kind of walking around and then I'm feeling all this pain in my back and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, the baby's in a bad position." And this is the immediate like midwife being like, "Oh, I need to go get my peanut ball and I need to try to change the baby's position," which is so silly. Don't worry about that, anybody. Okay? Like, sure. The peanut ball is great, but, you know, your contractions can happen wherever. People feel them in their legs. People feel them in their backs, in their hips. And it wasn't something I should have thought that much about, but I did.
[00:13:05] And then we were watching a show. We were trying to watch Parks and Rec. I think we got through like an episode and I was like, "I can't lay here anymore." And at some point, right before then I had called Jo and I spoke to her for like two minutes. Really, it was so short. I was like, "I don't know. I might be in early labor."
[00:13:22] Like clearly, I was in early labor. Like, let's see, the contractions are happening all day and then they get stronger. Like, whatever, Elaine, it's fine. So I, I spoke to her and like, she's just very calm and like "Okay. That's fine. That's great. Like, go rest." And then my husband Fred texted Maya saying, "Maybe this is starting," and this is like 7:15 PM, okay, and like doesn't say anything else. And then I text my friend and I'm like trying to see if she could come over and put in this IV for me, because you know, I'm trying to give myself antibiotics at my house.
[00:14:00] And none of my friends were available. I have nurse friends, midwife friends, this is summer.
[00:14:05] So actually summer is a terrible time to have birth workers. A lot of the doulas aren't available, because they're vacationing and all these things. So all of my friends were gone. Like, "Okay. I guess I'm not doing that." And like, Jo could easily have done that too, but I was trying not to bug her because she was gonna, you know, potentially be stuck laboring with me for however long. So, that was kind of funny.
[00:14:30] And then at like 8, 8:15 Fred texted Maya to tell her I was getting a little irritable. And that was me saying as a midwife, "Tell them I'm starting to get irritable." And then he texted her at 8:28 -- I have this timeline. It's so silly, but -- saying, " Elaine says she's being a wimp." So, here's the thing. The contractions went from like kind of uncomfortable to like, kind of unbearable very quickly and changed from like 10 minutes and chill, like to like seven minutes and five minutes and much more painful.
[00:15:07] And I'm thinking, "Well, I'm in early labor. I can't believe this is so uncomfortable. Why am I feeling like this? This is crazy." And so things picked up like rapidly, like, and at 8:45, my husband texts Maya to come. But she's going to just hang out, you know, in our guest space. And then five minutes later, I said, "Text them and tell them I have blood." Because now I have bloody show or something. And I'm again, just kind of like telling my husband, just kind of what to say. And at this point, everything has picked up in the last hour so quickly that now he is kind of...not nervous, but just like, "What is happening? Like, this is not what I read in the books."
[00:15:47] Like you read in "The Birth Partner" that you're just going to have this giantly long early labor, and you're going to sleep and bake cookies. None of those things happened. And I was so uncomfortable when we called Jo around like 8:45 or 8:50, I was like, "She's going to want to talk to me. Put me on speaker!" So he like put me on speaker and I apparently sounded very much in labor.
[00:16:10] And when I say that that's being nice to myself. I mean, I was definitely -- everybody copes in a different way. And I think that before I had my own baby, as a midwife, I thought like, you know, what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to breathe low and you're supposed to deep breathe and yoga breathe. And I was screaming. I was just screaming. Like high-pitched screams. So like the whole time I'm like, "I'm not coping well." But that was silly, because it was just what I apparently needed to do. Like it, it doesn't mean that it was wrong at all. And so the midwife part of me definitely got into my head in a negative way at that point. And also because I was thinking, "I'm still in early labor and I'm screaming already? Like, this is crazy."
[00:16:55] Lisa: And I want to ask you a question. When you have these very specific times in your timeline, was Fred recording this or were you?
[00:17:06] Elaine: After the fact, like probably a week or two after she was born, we went back to our phones, basically, and like looked at timestamps. Right?
[00:17:18] Lisa: That makes sense.
[00:17:18] Elaine: We looked at the timestamps for the calls and the texts. And then we wrote them down.
[00:17:22] Lisa: When I have a doula client, after the fact, I try to piece together some things to help them piece together the timeline. And that's exactly what I do is go into texts. Okay. That makes more sense. Because I was thinking surely you weren't in that thinking head at that point to like be writing down "at 8:18..."
[00:17:38] Elaine: No, definitely not. But it's, you know, I mean, with technology it's so easy to go back. Right. I mean, we also had like a contraction timer app that I think we timed like two contractions ever. But you know, like there just wasn't time to be timing anything either, you know? So like nine o'clock now, Jo is on the phone and, I'm like screaming and being like, "I'm being a wimp. Like this is crazy." And so she's like, "You don't have to do this, but if you want to try to examine yourself, you could try to do that." I'm like, "Okay. So I can totally do that." Because I am actually screaming during contractions, but completely normal in between. And so that's another thing. I was like, "I'm normal in between. I'm not supposed to be that. I'm supposed to be like not talking. And, and I am acting normal," and you know, a lot of people are told like -- and myself, and I've told so many people -- "Oh, like, wait until they start, you know, the person in labor starts like not talking." No, I never stopped talking ever. Never. So I tried to check myself and it's hard. It's actually really hard to do that.
[00:18:46] Lisa: I would think so, with your belly bump there, it just seems awkward.
[00:18:50] Elaine: Yeah, I like, I laid on the bathroom floor, so we have this big bathroom with this weird, crazy bathtub and this bathroom is actually quite large, it has a standup shower and then it has this giant jacuzzi tub and like has a lot of space. So we just spent the whole time, basically when I got active, in the bathroom, until we left the house, like we didn't, I didn't labor like anywhere else. And we tried to get me in this giant bathtub at one point, which was comical because I asked Fred to, to spray my back with the sprayer in the bathtub, but that water was cold, so that was a whole thing where I was like -- because the water in the bathtub was hot but it takes a second to get warm.
[00:19:32] And so he sprays me with this, like, freezing cold water. That didn't really go over well. It was fine. We actually, the bathtub didn't last very long. So I checked myself and I tell Fred, "I think I'm four centimeters and my membranes are bulging. My water bag is bulging." And that's all I could really feel.
[00:19:52] And it was hard to know, three to four, three to -- something like that. Okay. So he tells her that, and then like 20 minutes later, I'm just like, "I think she needs to come over so she can tell me---" because she lives close to me. So that was another awesome thing is that Jo lives about a mile from me. I mean, so fast to get here.
[00:20:12] And that was helpful. We had talked about that even, you know, and I said, "Maybe she just needs to come over and check me and tell me to like -- she needs to like whip me into shape somehow and tell me I need to just keep doing this."
[00:20:24] So she's like, "Okay, I'll come over." And then I start having more bloody show. Oh. And then the doula arrives because apparently at some point she just made the decision to come. Because she was so far away. I didn't even know she was coming. She just showed up. And that was funny too, because I was in the bathroom. And I was in between contractions when she walked in and she was like, "I'm just gonna observe the two of you for a second before I like get involved just to see like what you're doing," which -- what we're doing was chaos. Like nothing. We were not doing anything like you're supposed to do. So I have a contraction then like a minute later and she's just on me because I'm screaming and I'm so active.
[00:21:06] So we're waiting for Joe to come and I just find a spot in my dining room and I lay on the floor and I'm like, "I'm just gonna die. I just want to die right here." And like, I lay there and then a contraction comes and I have to like get up and move around or something. And then a few minutes later, Jo comes, she's like, "Let's get you, you know, let's go check you and see," and I go to my couch and I'm like, "Make sure we get a chuck!" -- like this underpad, right? I mean, really Elaine? Like, yeah, we're going to protect the couch from whatever could be coming out.
[00:21:41] But like, this is how with it I was as I was like thinking of these things. So. She examines me. I don't even remember what she said. Maybe it was eight. I thought maybe later she told me I was even more. Like, when your water bag is bulging, too, sometimes it's hard as a midwife to like, even tell how far you are. I don't know. I was far. Especially because it was only like an hour after I sort of checked myself. Right. You know? And so then we called for, you know, Fred said -- Oh, I don't know what happened between them, but they called a Lyft. So as we're getting everything ready, I'm like, "Fred, make sure you feed the cats."
[00:22:23] And like, "We need more Gatorade!" And I like go and walk to the fridge and get more Gatorade. I don't know, whatever. And then when we get outside our car is there waiting for us and it's a sedan. Fred forgot in the heat of the moment
[00:22:40] Lisa: For four of you. Were you all gonna get in that car?
[00:22:43] Elaine: Yes.
[00:22:44] Lisa: Oh, no.
[00:22:46] Elaine: Fred in all the chaos forgot to order like an XL. So here we are. Me laboring. Maya doula, Jo midwife, and Fred husband, plus all of our stuff, which -- I insisted on bringing the peanut ball. I don't know why. Because I think we have one in our locker, even. Like, whatever. All of our stuff. And we're supposed to get in like a Toyota Corolla or something like, so Fred sits in the front seat with the driver. I sit behind the driver's seat, but I'm not sitting. I'm like on my hands and knees looking out the window.
[00:23:27] Maya is next to me in the middle seat. Again, kind of leaning over me like not sitting, sitting, and poor Jo is behind Fred, who has pushed his seat all the way to the front so that she can crouch down in a little bit more space. It was terrible. It was, it was. It's a funny moment. It was like, for me, it wasn't so terrible, but for them -- and poor Jo, I just -- good thing she's small. She's like a petite person.
[00:23:55] Lisa: I'm trying to visualize this. You said you're on hands and knees. So you're taking two spots of the three in the back?
[00:24:00] Elaine: No, I'm kind of just in one. One and a half.
[00:24:02] Lisa: I was thinking maybe Jo was like entirely in the floorboard.
[00:24:06] Elaine: Oh, entirely in the floorboard. Yeah. Yes. Not in her seat. No, she was on the floor, like behind the passenger seat. And also, we live in Bed Stuy and the hospital is 59th and 10th. So that was fun. Also, we live very landlocked, like, and not near any of those highways, so it's tons of stop and go. And we're driving, we're driving like up Broadway in Brooklyn, like stopping all the time. It was...anyway. I don't remember...
[00:24:33] Lisa: A special kind of torture.
[00:24:36] Elaine: Special. Yes. I remember two things about the car ride. One, I remember passing Woodhull Hospital and being like, "Okay, well maybe we should just go here." And then two, I remember getting into Manhattan and driving across town and looking at every single avenue being like, "Okay, we're, we're at third. Okay. We're at Lex. Okay." Like, and waiting till we get to 10th, you know, I mean, torture
[00:25:02] Lisa: I remember that crosstown journey as well to the same hospital with my first, in my first labor in active labor. And that was, yeah, torture.
[00:25:11] Elaine: I mean, I don't think the car was any worse than anything else. I mean, labor was just like -- it was all pretty fast and furious. Right. It didn't matter where I was like, whatever that it was just the length of it. And just looking at the streets, going, "Okay, we have this much." And then we're like, I don't know, on 8th and 57th. And I'm like, "Water broke!" Like that's -- my water broke.
[00:25:34] And then I started bearing down. Like Fred told me later, he thought I was gonna, like maybe have the baby in the car. I knew I wasn't going to have the baby in the car because I was really set on getting my antibiotics and getting to the hospital. So I was like, "Okay, I'm pushing a little, but I'm not going to, like, have the baby."
[00:25:50] Lisa: So wait, had you had antibiotics?
[00:25:52] Elaine: No, no, no, no. Nobody could come over.
[00:25:53] Lisa: I thought maybe you self-administered.
[00:25:57] Elaine: No, no, no. Jo was only at home -- at my house -- for like 10 minutes. I could not physically put in my own IV. I had to have somebody else do that. I could have self-administered, but I didn't have anybody who could have put it in.
[00:26:10] And at that point, Jo got there. Of course, she could have put it in, but it was just like, no, let's just leave. Oh, I had forgotten. Sorry. There is one part of the story right after we got in our, in the car. We were a block away, not even, and I was like, I forgot my glasses. We have to go back. I'm wearing contacts because I had gone to the beach that day, but also I like wanted to have contacts in for labor or whatever, and I was like, "We have to go back. Somebody has to get out, we have to go." And they all were like "No." And I was really annoyed because after the fact we ended up having to send Maya back to Brooklyn and then back to Manhattan in a car to get them.
[00:26:47] We could have just stopped. We had plenty of time. That was like the, the midwife of me being like, "Ugh, should have gotten the glasses." And also, my stupidity for not packing an extra pair, like it should have just been in the bag And the reason it wasn't is that I actually had like a pile of stuff that was meant for home. It was like the home labor stuff. And one of the things in there was the glasses case that was supposed to just transfer from one spot to the next. But because we didn't go into the labor stuff, I didn't get that, but I remembered and I was really upset and I was like, this was a very -- like a waste of time, after the fact.
[00:27:28] Lisa: Listen to the laboring woman!
[00:27:31] Elaine: No, but I also understand. As a midwife, I would have been like, "No, no." Especially if I was more dilated-- I don't know, you know. So the water broke, and, I just said "Water broke!" And then I'm wearing one of those like adult diapers. By the way, after that, I became the major advocate for Depends or adult diapers. I think every person should wear them when they are in labor, particularly in the car, because I will tell you from personal experience that they actually hold a lot. And let's just leave it at that.
[00:27:57] Lisa: Good to know.
[00:27:59] Elaine: So please always buy Depends and wear them in the car, if nothing else. Even if your water isn't broken, your water can break and it will hold it. And you will not have the cab cleaning fee because I did not. So we arrive at the hospital and we pull up into the circle and we all get out. Cause you know, everybody's been cramped. And then Jo starts walking very quickly, and I'm following pretty quickly. And then Maya's following me and then poor Fred gets stuck with all of our stuff. Nobody grabs anything. He's trying to manage all of the things. And I think he either didn't hear her or whatever, he wasn't even sure, like, are we even going to the birthing center? This was back, you know, when the birthing center was open, you didn't know exactly if you would have a room or if you would be eligible or what not, or where you would go first, if you would go to triage. So he didn't even know what floor we were going to. So he did catch us in the elevator, before we went up. So that was nice.
[00:28:59] At one point I said to Jo, before we even got in the elevator, I was like, "Should we check the color of the amniotic fluid? She's like, "No, it's fine. We'll look at it when we get there, you know?" So we got into the room, we met our nurse, Lisa. Lisa Cirigliano is actually a midwife now. But she was one of the birthing center nurses and she is now a midwife who works at the hospital with Dr. Bradley and Dr. Nabizadeh, and she's amazing, so -- great practice. I went into the bathroom and Jo was like, "No, Elaine, I think we should like check you. You're like pushing." And I was like, "No, I must go to the bathroom." Whatever. I knew I wasn't having the baby in the bathroom. I knew that, but I guess other people didn't know that. I might not have told them, but like I was confident there was no baby coming into the bathroom. So, I went to the bathroom, Lisa helped me.
[00:29:50] And then we got into the bed and Jo was like, "Oh, you're fully dilated. You can push whenever." And I was like, "I need my antibiotics." She's like, "But you're fully dilated." And Lisa was saying the same thing and I was like, "Nope." This is too much. I shouldn't have been midwifing so much, but the thing is is that even if you're fully dilated -- and we have had clients like this before -- you can sometimes push for two hours or even three hours. And I knew that.
[00:30:21] And so I wanted to at least get one dose of the antibiotic, just to say like that I got it, and then get a little bit of that treatment. And actually, as a midwife, there have been times -- like earlier on; now I always try to get it for people -- but where somebody was fully, and then she pushed for two hours and I'm like, "Oh, you could have gotten a dose. Not, you're not going to get both doses, but you could get a dose and that would help." So I was adamant and I was like, "I'm not pushing. Lisa, here's my arm. Put in my IV." I was pretty bossy at that point. Pretty midwife-y. It was a thing I felt strongly about.
[00:30:57] I had done a lot of processing of being group-B strep positive and what that would mean. I didn't care about being positive. I didn't want to go be stuck in the hospital for extra time for not getting adequate treatment. Because I wanted treatment. I find treatment is really important, but you know, you're supposed to get two doses, four hours apart.
[00:31:17] And if you didn't get that, you're not really -- the pediatricians won't let you go home early. And I knew that, and I didn't want to be in the hospital. And so I thought, "Well, I'll get one and maybe I'll be able to negotiate with them." So I got the antibiotic and then I start pushing and it was really fine.
[00:31:35] I think pushing was great. I don't remember anything terrible. I pushed for about an hour. I said to the nurse, " Lisa, what time is it?" She said, "It's 11:54." And I was like, "Ugh!" And like Jo looked at her kind of like "What?" Lisa was like, "She wants to deliver before midnight because she doesn't want to have to stay the extra night," which was totally what was in my head. Because if you deliver before midnight, then technically then that's day one and you could go home, like, so this was Thursday, right? So if I had delivered Thursday by technical hospital rules, I would have gone home Saturday, but because I delivered at -- no joke, 12:10 -- 12:10 AM, so close -- technically, my stay was supposed to be till Sunday. And I was mad, but fine. Whatever. I pushed, It was fine. I didn't experience anything strange or like, to be honest, even the ring of fire, like, didn't seem to bother me. At one point, I was like, "I feel burning. Is the head coming?" Like, and I asked Maya. And that's that.
[00:32:47] I mean, we had our baby and she was cool and great and cute and small. So first off we didn't know we were having a girl. And we both, we both wanted a girl. We didn't know what we were having. So I was so excited about that. That was amazing. And then the second question I had, or comment was: why is she so small? Like, where's the rest of her? She was so small. She was only six pounds, eight ounces. I expected an eight-plus pound baby. Everybody thought that. I have like a short torso. I like looked bigger. Who knows? Even one of the nurses who I love very much, but out of love had told Lisa, "Oh, I saw Elaine yesterday," you know, the day that I was there for that Cesarean, "She looks like baby's a little big. Hopefully she does well." And like, not out of anything other than love, like, and she didn't say it to me, remember, like, so it was fine. But yeah, everybody thought that. And I was like, "Oh yeah, six pounds, eight ounces." So that was great. And that was it.
[00:33:52] Lisa: Can you tell me, did you feel the urge to push?
[00:33:55] Elaine: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I was pushing in the cab. But also I, like a lot of people, actually, had to be ready to push. And I've seen that before, where you've got like sort of spontaneous bearing down, and you might be grunting or pushing a little, but, because of the antibiotic thing, like I just would not actually do it until that was done. And then I did it.
[00:34:19] Lisa: That seems so challenging, to have that urge to push -- because, at least for me, it was like, there was no way I couldn't push. But maybe, maybe it was because I psychologically was ready to do that, perhaps.
[00:34:31] Elaine: Right. Yeah. Like, I mean, the urge must've been there, because of the like spontaneous bearing down, but... yeah. And then I stayed in the hospital, like I said, and I was in the birthing center for a little while. And then I got moved to a private room, which I paid for. And it's fine. You get a discount if you're an employee, but you still pay for it. So no special treatment. That's fine. I didn't want special treatment. And I negotiated to go home Saturday afternoon, like, which technically would be a normal stay. So, hospital stay was fine. Postpartum of course was fine. I think the nurses were like, "Oh, Elaine, she, like, knows stuff."
[00:35:09] So I didn't get like a lot of extra help, which was honestly fine. And I experienced that room too. So as like, you know, being able to personally talk about that with my clients is cool. Like all the spots, right? Like the birthing center and also the postpartum. So I could talk about that. And, and then I went home.
[00:35:34] Lisa: Can we back up to just the moments that you met baby? What was that like? Did baby come straight to your chest?
[00:35:40] Elaine: So when I was born, my mom has this picture that my dad took in the eighties of like this doctor holding me up and you even see like the clamp holding the umbilical cord in the picture, and he's all very surgical, you know, like wearing full garb. And she was in a delivery room, which is like an operating room. I was a vaginal birth, but like they deliver, they used to wheel people into a delivery room, right? So, like, this very sterile kind of room. So there's this picture of me being held up. And so I was really adamant and I had talked to Joe about this beforehand, that I wanted the same picture for my kid.
[00:36:19] So when the baby came out, Jo had to quickly like, hold her up and pose, which is not a midwife-y thing to do. Right. Because midwives, we would just normally pick up the baby and guide the baby to the parent's chest. But because of this, I wanted this picture and I was like, in that moment, even like reminding people, probably because, you know, me. So there's this quick picture and then the baby -- yes, she came to me and then I immediately kind of picked her up and like held her like, you know, in a way that really only like, a medical provider who's used to handling babies would hold the baby, kind of like upright, looking at her to see that she was a girl, and say that of course, and then to say how small she was.
[00:37:07] And that was great. And then I held her for however long, a long time I'm sure. And you know, it was, it was wonderful to just have that experience and have her near me and my husband and, you know, everything was really chill and calm. And so that was super nice. And just like meeting her was so exciting. Especially, you know, again, like we didn't know what we were having. We didn't know what we were gonna name -- actually didn't know what we were going to name a girl for sure. So that was cool.
[00:37:37] Lisa: Did you kind of want to meet her first before you picked a name?
[00:37:41] Elaine: We had like two contenders. Yes. And one of them was like for a long time had we had thought this was going to be the name. And then all of a sudden in the pregnancy, I found the other name, which is [name removed for privacy]. And all of a sudden that became kind of a top choice, but... so, yeah, we kind of had to see her before we fully figured it out.
[00:38:01] Lisa: Hmm. So, anything else you wanted to note about initial postpartum before we talk about midwifery and your practice?
[00:38:10] Elaine: Postpartum is so important. And to be honest, it's probably more important to prepare for than the birth. The birth is a really short thing. And the birth is totally important and, I totally understand why everybody does all the prep that they do, but a lot of times people don't prepare as much for postpartum and it can be quite a shock.
[00:38:35] So postpartum for me was difficult at times. We had some breastfeeding stuff where -- I think she was pretty old, maybe even a month. The stubborn midwife of me was like not asking for a lot of help. And so breastfeeding was like happening and it was happening fine, but it was also super painful. And so a bunch of things went on and it took a while for me to reach out to anybody.
[00:39:05] And I finally reached out to a friend, lactation consultant midwife guru of a person, Tanya Wills, to come from Manhattan to me. I felt guilty. Like she's coming from the Upper West Side and whatever. Anyway, she came over and like, we noted that the baby had like tongue or lip tie, particularly a lip tie. And then I ended up getting it clipped, which -- I actually have a family friend who's an oral surgeon who did it. So that was cool. And fine and totally fine. And I would actually recommend that to people. My clients have these, they find out their baby has a tongue or a lip tie. Like, in my case, it really, really helped it just, like, something was holding back her small mouth.
[00:39:51] But also, she was in a really weird position when she came out and I tried to ask Lisa and the nurse and Jo, the midwife, about the position. And like no one could really describe it to me and we didn't take any video or any pictures really. But supposedly she came out in like a very weird -- we would call that asynclitic -- very crooked kind of way.
[00:40:12] And actually her nose was smooshed for like a month. Like really smooshed weirdly. So maybe she could have used some bodywork or something, too, in the beginning, like, you know, like osteopath or some kind of...
[00:40:26] Lisa: Craniosacral?
[00:40:27] Elaine: Yeah. Right. Craniosacral or chiropractic, like something. But anyway, we didn't do that. But postpartum is no joke. And after my own experience, I definitely focus a lot more on, on prepping for that and reaching out soon if you have problems or struggles.
[00:40:49] Lisa: Yeah. I feel like when people are expecting a baby, our own postpartum wellness is one of the things that really is the first to get neglected. And that's why in my birth classes, I spend a good chunk of time -- and I think that a lot of expectant parents probably in the moment are thinking, "Why is she spending so much time on postpartum wellness. Did I really need this?" And then they'll get it on the other side of birth. They'll get that -- my emphasis on, "You need support. Have names of, you know, postpartum doulas and lactation consultants and all of these different practitioners who could really, really support your wellness, you and your baby's wellness in that journey." But yeah, it's finding that balance in our different roles in this birth world of giving them what they want, but really also giving them what they need and don't know that they need yet, right?
[00:41:37] Elaine: Right, right. And like, so in our last, like the last four weeks-- or more, depending -- of appointments, I focus a lot on that. Like I'm like, "Okay, so you did all your birth prep and your labor prep, like, let's talk about what you're doing for postpartum or what, what you're going to think about for contraception. Like things like that, that will be kind of not on your mind when you first have a baby. And even before I had a kid, I actually -- and I followed my own advice. I used to advise people to find out like when their local La Leche League meeting was, or any newborn or parents support groups, and put those things on the calendar so that they didn't have to find those when they had a baby who was with them and taking a lot of their time.
[00:42:19] Lisa: I love that idea of putting it on the calendar. Ooh, I love that. I'm going to borrow that tip.
[00:42:24] Elaine: Yeah, so I had actually looked like for the local La Leche League meeting and like put it on the calendar. Which are usually like a month -- every month or every two weeks. So I knew when they would be, and I had searched that out. So that was cool because I didn't have to like try to Google that later.
[00:42:41] And I did actually go to a meeting, probably when she was like a month old. I was definitely still struggling with breastfeeding when I went to the meeting and then I got better. And then I went to another meeting to be like, "Okay, I got better." You know, because the La Leche League meetings are really peer support. There's people who are there who are, you know, guiding and leading -- like, moderating. But you're really helping each other.
[00:43:04] So I was like, "Okay, I had all these struggles, so now I'm going to go back and like tell people about that." So that was cool. And actually one of those leaders, in my neighborhood, is Simone Toomer. And she's really amazing. And I really like her and I've tried to like work with her since and like recommend her and stuff.
[00:43:25] Lisa: Yeah, when she was actively attending births, she was on my list of recommended doulas. She's great.
[00:43:31] Elaine: Yeah.
[00:43:32] Lisa: I'd love to hear about how you decided to become a midwife.
[00:43:37] Elaine: Right. I had thought for a pretty long time that I was going to be a doctor or something, you know. I think this is pretty common in midwifery. I grew up in Wisconsin. I hadn't really heard of midwives until I went into my undergrad. I went to University of Wisconsin in Madison. And I took this Women's Studies 1 03, which was like Women's Health class. And they talked about midwifery in this class, among lots of other things, of course. And I was like, "Oh, that sounds like more in line with what I had thought about."
[00:44:11] And so I like immediately decided that I was going to be a midwife instead. And so I got myself on a path to nursing. But I wasn't the best student. I was great in high school, but college was hard and I liked doing other activities. So I didn't have the best grades.
[00:44:31] Plus at the University of Wisconsin-Madison you had to, at least at the time had to apply separately to nursing school. Like you couldn't just like declare that as your major and do it. You had to apply. And so I couldn't get in. That was sad. And so then I was like, "Okay, I'm going to try again." And I couldn't get in because you're supposed to apply I think your junior year.
[00:44:53] And so then I was like, "Well, I already have all these Women's Studies classes." And I took all the prereqs for nursing. Because I knew that's what I wanted to do. So I was like, "I'm just going to major in Women's Studies and graduate. And apply to an accelerated nursing program afterwards at like a school that's not as difficult."
[00:45:14] And so that's exactly what I did. I also studied abroad my senior year just to like get that piece of things.
[00:45:22] Lisa: Where'd you go?
[00:45:23] Elaine: I went to Ireland. Galway, actually.
[00:45:26] Lisa: I love Ireland. We went there just a few years ago.
[00:45:30] Elaine: It's so great. And Western Ireland is really great and I had a really good experience and actually that's relevant because I don't think I would have left Wisconsin had I not left to go abroad. So after I went to Ireland, I was like, "Oh, world out here more than Wisconsin. Like I think I'm going to get out of this place." So I graduated, like I said, on time, in like four years, you know, just normal. And I moved home. Ugh. I said I would never do that. And then I went and moved in with my mom.
[00:46:02] I like my mom a lot. She's great. And actually it was a really nice time in our relationship. We had a really good time during those nine months. But anyway, so I lived there for a while. I got a job as a nursing assistant because I was like, "Well, I'm going to work the ladder. So like the first thing I'm going to do is get a nursing assistant job in postpartum," which is what I did.
[00:46:22] And then I applied to some nursing programs. Got into Quinnipiac, which is in Connecticut. Never went there. Didn't check it out. Just kind of applied to a bunch of places. I actually had like a long list of schools. I also applied to University of Rochester. And got in, but decided that was too much like Wisconsin. So I didn't go there. Because Rochester is not far from Canada. Wisconsin is not far from Canada. And I like did an interview. They were like telling me about how snowy it was, which, like -- Wisconsin is cold and snowy too. And I was like, "Yeah, no, I'd like to change this up." And I was like, "New York City -- I have a friend who's there from college. I'm going to live in Connecticut. It's not far." Never went to visit it, just accepted. Ended up going for the very first time to go to the orientation. So I went to Quinnipiac, which was a year, May to May. Very hard, but it was really important to me to become a nurse and work as a nurse before I became a midwife.
[00:47:19] So I got a nursing degree. I got a first job in Connecticut in Bridgeport as a labor and delivery nurse, but also postpartum. I learned how that all worked. I was really adamant, too, even in school, I needed to like be in labor and delivery. So I ended up getting my, like -- I don't remember what it was called -- "preceptorship" or something -- like where you, your last nursing rotation was something that you wanted. And I was very like, "I need to have labor and delivery." And then my first job, I was like, "I won't accept anything other than at least postpartum, but like labor and delivery, even though I'm a new grad," and I was persistent. I worked there. I loved it. I was so happy for that place.
[00:48:01] And the nurses were amazing and it was a small hospital. So I actually learned a lot because there were no residents. So like the nurses did a lot of triage and stuff, which only helped me later. I applied to Columbia and Yale. I lived less than a mile from Yale. I lived in New Haven and I got accepted to both and decided to go to Columbia.
[00:48:24] So I just left and came to New York and went to Columbia. And I also worked part time. Because I started my year part time. I had a lot of pre-reqs already. And so I was able to do like the non-midwifery stuff first and work full time. So I worked at St. Vincent's before it closed.
[00:48:45] Lisa: That was my first birth as a doula was like a week or two before it closed down at St. Vincent's.
[00:48:51] Elaine: It was such a good place to work. It was such a good place to be and learn. And I wasn't there even that long. And I still have ties to that place and the people who I worked with. And they ended up closing while I was in my midwifery year. I had switched to per diem. And so I was only working once in a while, but I just didn't look for another job.
[00:49:13] And then I graduated and got a travel position in labor and delivery at Mount Sinai West, which was Roosevelt at the time. So that's nine months that I worked there. And then got a job in New Jersey with a doctor. So I've only worked in private practice. A doctor and he like wanted to expand and have a midwife. And I was kind of the first one to do that. And it was cool. I was really glad he was really supportive and I had a lot of good experience there. And then -- I still lived in the city and I commuted to New Jersey and this practice sort of fell into my lap because Georgia Rose, the midwife who started this practice, she was looking to retire and she and I had known each other from -- she worked at St. Vincent's like a tiny bit, but really mostly from Roosevelt. And she had asked me like what I was thinking, and I ended up like taking over the practice.
[00:50:04] So that's how I got to Central Park Midwifery as it is. And of course, like I worked with Georgia for a year and then Jo. And Jo became my partner in 2015 and we had the practice together. And then I hired Chloe and, you know, so like it's been, it's been like a journey. And as far as midwifery, just in general, I, I just felt like that was what I needed to do. I don't know. There was like, no real magical thing.
[00:50:33] You know, like sometimes people are like, "Well, I watched my cat give birth." Or like, "I watched my sibling be born." Like, nothing like that happened. I actually never saw a birth until I was in nursing school. I have a half sister who is a little older than I, and had a baby when I was a sophomore in college. And she had actually said I could come to the birth, but then I was on spring break. So. But I just never, it just felt like the right thing. I was really into my Women's Studies classes. And I have a certificate in LGBT studies, which is like so different from 2005 to now. But that was kind of new at the time, but just like getting like into this realm of women's health or like pregnancy, gynecology, birth, contraception, all of these things were really -- just spoke to me and I have no other explanation. And, as far as private practice, I actually have absolutely no regrets. I am so happy. I've only worked in private practice. Like fine. I didn't get a lot of this city hospital experience, which -- I think those midwives are so smart and like get so much exposure.
[00:51:49] But that just means that I had a lot of lower-risk exposure, too, because even though I worked with this doctor and I did a lot more -- I did, I did ultrasounds with him. I did assisting with cesarean births, and I did a couple of other things that I don't do anymore. I was really like this low-risk midwife, like always. And I think that that was helpful to me because that's what midwives are, right? Is like the experts in normal -- quote, normal -- or like physiologic birth. Right? And that's why obstetricians exist for more high-risk stuff. And in countries like the UK where midwives kind of run the show for low-risk birth, and then you only go to an OB if you need something really medical -- that just seems like the right model. I wish that we could adapt a similar model here. So it's been lovely to be able to provide that.
[00:52:45] Also private practice, really, you get to know people on such a different level. And, and that's how our practice is now, too. You know, we really get to know everybody and then the clients so well. We know them by first name, like, and they know that about us too, right? Like somebody calling the emergency line, being in labor, being like, "Hi, it's Mary." Like, "Oh yeah. Hey, Mary, what's up?" You know, like we know who that is. We don't have to be like, "Oh, and what's your due date? And tell me your history." Like we know this stuff and that's really important to us as a practice. And I think that's probably why people come to us a lot, too. It's just that personal relationship.
[00:53:22] Lisa: That actually answers part of what I was about to ask for someone who isn't too familiar with the midwifery model of care, what would be the key things that would be considerations that might draw them to the midwifery model of care? One of those you just described about that relationship and not feeling like a number, not feeling so rushed. Are there other things that come to mind?
[00:53:44] Elaine: Feeling more an active participant or -- not even participant, right? Like being more in charge of your own care. Like not just being told, "This is the test we're going to do today.," and like, not having a conversation about it. Or having longer appointments with, you know, a more holistic approach, like, talking about doulas, talking about chiropractors, and acupuncture and other kinds of bodywork that can help you have a good birth experience, or like getting your body ready.
[00:54:18] But a lot of people think "midwife" and they think "home birth." Right. Okay? Fine. But there's a lot more to midwifery than that. And obviously that's not what we do, like we're in the hospital. But also people think "midwife," they think like, "No epidural." Like, listen, you can have an epidural, this isn't my birth, it's your birth, and epidurals are great, sure, if that's what you want. So I think people need to also understand that "midwife" doesn't mean no medication. And we don't care how you like your birth to be as far as medication, we're just there to help you along the way. So anyone can benefit from having a midwife and having that like more personal relationship, and more actively being involved in their care.
[00:55:06] Lisa: I love that. Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Well, as we wrap things up a couple of things, is there anything you haven't gotten to share that you'd like to share? And then after that, I'd love for you to tell listeners how they can find you, if they would love a wonderful midwifery practice for their pregnancy and labor and birth, as well as GYN care, right?
[00:55:27] Elaine: Yes. Yes. Explore the options. You know, sometimes people worry about what it means, too, with costs, for example, like midwives, most midwives are really out of network with insurance, including us, but that doesn't mean that your insurance won't cover it. It doesn't mean you have to pay tons of money.
[00:55:46] I mean, some people, unfortunately things happen. I'm not a medical biller. Like I have one who's really great. He deals with that. But you know midwives are also, we're a small business. Right. But we're also like the owners, right? Like we can talk to people and try to figure out something that works for someone.
[00:56:05] So sometimes people get really hung up on that kind of stuff and they don't inquire, but I wish they would have. Right? I think we could have worked something out. So you can find us -- centralparkmidwifery.com. Also, you can find Jo. So Jo actually still is a hospital- based midwife. She works by herself and that's amazing. She's so lucky. There is like a lot of benefit. I worked alone for a little while and it is nice. You get to really know -- your clients know who's going to be there. Right. Like, my practice has three midwives, and it could be any one of the three of us, which is still a lot smaller than a doctor practice, right? Like a doctor practice could be like seven, and could be somebody you never even met. So Jo works alone and is amazing and has practice in Brooklyn called Nettle Wellness. And she's so great. And like I said, my nurse Lisa has become a midwife now and, and works in Manhattan with two doctors who are also really supportive. They're extra amazing. Like, physicians are great and OBs are great. And they are often needed for lots of different things, but there are certain physicians who are more into physiologic birth than others, let's say.
[00:57:16] Lisa: Absolutely. Yep. And I've gotten the same kind of feedback from my clients about that practice -- really positive -- as well as, of course, yours. I've already said that but it bears repetition.
[00:57:28] Elaine: Right. But I mean, even Mount Sinai West as a hospital in general has like really a good reputation for a low primary Cesarean rate, and support all around. So I love it there. I mean, we choose to practice there. Sometimes people don't think about that. Like we are voluntary, which means that we -- I mean, we don't have a lot of places in New York City that we can go, because as you might know there aren't lots of choices considering the size of New York City, but I wouldn't leave. Right? Like the birthing center closed. And I didn't want to go anywhere else. Like this is my place. And I feel very comfortable as a practitioner there too.
[00:58:08] So. Ways to find midwives. Always inquire, because like we said, you might be able to work something out. Try to inquire early because midwife practices tend to book up because they are so small. We don't take every person who inquires. We make sure everybody is a good fit and they, they feel that way about us. Right.
[00:58:28] And get a doula, because they're really important. You know, I, I couldn't have done it without mine. And childbirth education classes are so important, but also like focusing on the postpartum, too. And I know Lisa's classes at Birth Matters focused on postpartum stuff a lot, too, and lactation, but Lisa has always been on our referral list, for a long time.
[00:58:52] So those are, I think, really important. ,
[00:58:57] Lisa: Thank you for the shout out and thank you for all of the things you've shared.
[00:59:01] This has been so wonderful. What a treat to hear your birth story. Thank you very much. And I hope we can see you face to face at some point when it's safe, because we're recording this in -- what -- the end of July during the pandemic, This'll probably air in the fall, but, all right, well, thank you again, Elaine. It's been a pleasure.
[00:59:23] Elaine: Thanks so much, Lisa, for having me, even though I wasn't your student. Here, I am like imposing on the rule.
[00:59:29] Lisa: Oh, there's no rule. There's no rule. It's the beginning of many non- Birth Matters student birth stories. It's great.
[00:59:35] Elaine: Thanks, Lisa. Thank you so much.
[00:59:37] Lisa: Thank you, Elaine. Take care. Bye.
[00:59:39] Elaine: OK. Bye.