Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 125 - A VBAC Success Story: The Power of Prep & Support

Donna shares her transformative journey from a first birth experience via C-section to achieving a VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Cesarean) with her second child. She describes her extensive preparations, the critical role of her doula, and the stark differences between her two birth experiences. From facing prodromal labor to making informed choices like hiring a supportive healthcare team and deciding on an epidural, Donna relives the emotional and physical steps that led to her ultimately pulling her own baby onto her chest. Her story highlights the importance of preparation, support, and empowerment in achieving the birth you envision, which has been a theme in many of our stories, if you’ve been listening here for a while.

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Episode Topics:

  • First birth story and prenatal journey

  • Challenges and learnings from the first birth

  • Prenatal preparation for VBAC

  • Resources for VBAC support (books, podcasts)

  • Role and selection of doulas for VBAC

  • Laboring at home and signs of labor

  • Hospital experience and interventions

  • Epidural and pain management

  • Pushing stage and delivery

  • Postpartum experience in the hospital

  • Postpartum recovery and emotions

  • Reflections on being a mother of two

  • Support systems and empowerment during birth

  • Advice for expectant mothers/parents

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Today I have with me Donna and Donna is not a former client of mine, but she's a client of a dear friend of mine and former member of my doula collective, Chana. So I'm so excited to have you here, Donna, because most of my work with teaching birth classes is usually with first timers.

So, given that's the case, I don't usually have as much of a pool of folks who want to share a VBAC, or who have a VBAC story. And so that's what Donna's going to share with us today. Welcome Donna, would you like to just introduce yourself a little bit? 

Donna: Of course. My name is Donna. I'm a mom of two.

My oldest is two years old. My youngest is about seven weeks old. They're almost exactly a year apart. I live on Long Island in New York, in Nassau County, and I'm very passionate about talking about my VBAC because I honestly can't believe I even achieved it. So, I'm very excited to share my journey with you all today.

Lisa: Thank you so much. I cannot wait to hear all of these details. So why don't you just start by sharing anything about your prenatal journeys as well as your first birth story, and then eventually we'll go into the VBAC second birth story. Go right ahead. 

Donna: Okay.

Prenatally, I feel like for my first birth, I was just ecstatic to be pregnant, and, I feel like I didn't prepare that much, I just was in like, oh, I'm feeling great, things are going good, thankfully, most of, my pregnancy was there wasn't too many concerns.

The only thing that we noticed on a scan one time was something called PRUV, which is where the baby's umbilical, like something is attached to the right side versus normally the left side, it was just something that they needed to keep closer monitor on not necessarily that there's anything wrong with baby or myself.

So I had a lot more scans in my first pregnancy, which was both, which is honestly a good thing. I was excited to see baby every time. and see that she's doing well and everything went good. I feel like I, because things, like I felt great physically that I didn't, take much initiative to really look about, look into what birth really should look like.

What do I need to be concerned about? I feel like I just was like, oh, this is gonna be great. Women give birth all the time. I have nothing to worry about. I don't really need to prepare that much. I trust my doctors. We're just gonna go for it. And the second time around prenatally, I was very different in the sense of prep.

So, it was another healthy pregnancy, thank God. But I was prepping like crazy, basically doing all the things, listening to all the podcasts, and reading a book. The book that I specifically read was Baby Got VBAC. The podcast I listened to was the VBAC Link podcast, Pop That Mama podcast, this podcast, my doula Chana is the one who introduced me to Lisa's podcast, which is wonderful.

But so I honestly didn't even know much about VBACs at all, or that they were even possible after a first C-section. I was like, prenatally this time around, I want to really do my research and look into it and make sure this is exactly what I want to do.

So I really dived in and learned all I could about VBACs and how to prepare for them. So both births were very different as far as prenatal and prep. I really went into the weeds with the second, second time around because I wanted to achieve my VBAC. So that's basically what I'll say, prep wise, is that it was very different. 

Lisa: And how did doulas come on your radar? And why did you choose to hire a doula the second time around? 

Donna: So, in my research for VBACs, basically one of the number one things I kept seeing is that if you want to achieve your VBAC, you should hire a doula.

So I was like, okay, I want my best chance at this, and I feel like I really need the support, and I love my husband to death, but I'm not sure he would know exactly how to help in that scenario. I think I wanted an expert to guide both of us in this. So I said, I think that's the first step. 

And honestly, finding my doula, Chana Diamond, changed the trajectory of my journey for sure because I don't think I would even be in this position right now if it wasn't for her. Because after our first session speaking together, she basically was very honest and, very forward and said, if you wanna achieve this VBAC, the hospital that I was planning to go to, the doctors that I was seeing at that time, she's like, I'm sure they're great doctors, but if you wanna achieve this, that hospital is notorious for not being super supportive with VBACs and the culture is a little bit different.

So I have other recommendations if you want them of different doctors and hospitals. So I took those recommendations and at first I was scared and I was nervous. I was like, Oh no, am I doing the right thing that I just met this woman and now she's telling me I need to change my doctor and all this and I'm so glad I did because later on, with research and time, just recognized that my initial doctor wasn't really VBAC supportive. Mostly VBAC friendly people say that they are supportive of VBACs, but then they start to say, if you don't go by 39 weeks, we want to induce you or schedule a C-section.

And that's exactly what my doctor said. They're like, Oh yeah, you definitely try for a VBAC. But if you don't go by 39 weeks, we're going to schedule the C-section. And I thought, okay, this must be normal protocol, like they just want to be extra safe. But then later on in my prenatal journey, I, through research and speaking with other moms, I recognized, wait, this is actually a red flag, and this is not the norm.

Chana really helped me out there and really changed the whole pace of everything. And the doctor that I ended up going to was Dr. Bachman and Dr. Bentley, which are absolutely fabulous and highly recommend them. They're very VBAC supportive. And both of them are just honestly super calm.

And I feel like I have anxiety and I get nervous. And they're just very chill. They're like, oh, you want to do a VBAC? Okay. Let's look at all the facts. Let's talk about this. And they're just, they make you feel comfortable and that they believe in you and that they care.

And it's just like a, I don't know, somebody that's a friend versus a doctor who is an authority figure and you're nervous to talk around or they're speaking all these terms you don't understand, and are actually not that supportive, but they're not like this at all.

They're just wonderful. They were really wonderful throughout the whole journey. 

Lisa: Yeah, I like that differentiation between someone calling themselves VBAC-friendly versus truly supportive. VBAC supportive. There's a big difference. And the VBAC friendly thing can sometimes end up feeling for people I've worked with as like a bait and switch. It's not that they mean it that way.

They don't mean to do it that way, but at the slightest concern, they'll be very much quicker to do a probably unnecessary c-section in many cases. Some cases may be necessary, but in many cases not. And that's a prime example of the evidence practice gap whereby we know if we look at the statistics and the research and everything surrounding VBAC, the risks are exaggerated in terms of most providers and their quickness to do another c-section.

Yeah, so I love that you switched, and I've always heard wonderful things about that practice in terms of just really being patient with the process, including in a VBAC scenario. And I love also that you brought up the VBAC link because I just had one of the co-founders on my podcast recently sharing her really amazing VBA2C story.

And so I love that it was a helpful resource for you. I had not heard of the, you said Mama Got VBAC, was that the name of the book? 

Donna: The book was Baby Got VBAC. 

Lisa: Oh, Baby Got VBAC. Okay. 

Donna: Yeah, so it's basically a podcast in book form because it's all different stories of different women's VBAC journeys.

So it was basically the book version of a lot of the podcasts that were listened to that were about VBAC. So it was wonderful. Very informative. 

Lisa: That's so cool. I will list all of these things in the show notes, of course, and I'm gonna check that out myself, since I wasn't familiar with that. So thanks for sharing those things. 

Donna: Of course. 

Lisa: Do you want to share anything about your first birth to help us all understand, the second journey a little bit more. 

Donna: Sure, of course. 

With my first birth, like I said, I didn't do much research. I was just in happy baby land. I was excited to be pregnant. And, so how it happened was basically my water broke, like in the movies. Most people say, oh, your water's not going to break like the movies. It's not, birth's not really like that. Mine was this first, the first time around. I was sitting on the couch with my husband in the evening, early evening, around like 6pm and I was like, I felt a little crampy.

I'm like, oh, maybe I have to go to the bathroom. And I, as soon as I stood up, like a gush of water, came out, my husband thought I was pranking him. He's like stop, you're pranking me. Where's the water bottle? And I'm like, no, actually this is happening. And I was giggling. I was like, Oh my God, like I'm in labor.

And I was so excited. At this point I only felt crampy. I felt like I just got my period type of cramps. so I called my doctor right away and I said, hey, I think my water broke. And they were like, okay, pack your things. You don't have to rush, but pack your things and come to the hospital as soon as you can.

We're going to induce you. We're going to give you pitocin because you're at risk for infection since you're not having really strong contractions yet. And I was like, okay, I'll come as soon as I can. At this time my doctor was actually in the city so I was giving birth in the city and I lived on Long Island so I also wanted to make sure that there wasn't traffic and I can get there on time so we pretty much left right away.

And everything started quick. I got the epidural right away before I even really felt pain. They started the Pitocin right away, and after about 48 hours I was stuck at six centimeters and not really making much progression. The baby's heart rate wasn't really tolerating the Pitocin.

So every time they turned it up, the baby wasn't liking that. And then they basically just said you're not progressing. Let's do a C-section. So I also, at this time, I'm a first-time mom. I never had a baby. I never really even experienced the having birth part because everything was just rushed and medicated.

So I was like, okay, this must be my only chance. And I do want to note actually too, in the hospital, like, since I got the epidural right away, and my nurses really weren't that helpful, I just was laying in the bed, like I didn't move at all.

Like I was just laid there, did nothing. So the second time around, I realized how bad that was, but I went and had my c-section. I had a healthy beautiful baby girl, everything went well c section wise and I was very emotional postpartum. I don't know if that was because of the c-section or because I'm a first-time mom and the big change or both of those things, but it was just a very, different experience than what I had the second time around. 

Lisa: I'm sorry that you struggled, first-time postpartum. I hear you, and that's really tough. And it's complicated, too, right? There's all these hormones that are changing and volatile and everything. However we give birth, but then also there's this birth not going according to how you maybe thought it would go. Lots of things going on. Other factors as well, for sure. 

Donna: Totally. And as I did my research, for my VBAC and my second birth, I actually, while doing the research, it was almost like a healing process because I was recognizing all the things that hurt me or that I was emotional about the first birth that I didn't realize I was until I did research. I thought, you know what, wow, yeah, I didn't get to hold my baby right away, that kind of didn't feel great, and, she, they took her and gave her, a bath, I didn't see her for an hour the first time around, that, that kind of was crappy, and I was, like, putting together all these pieces that, that definitely, I think, contributed to me feeling a little bit more emotional the first time around. I don't know, it definitely was healing.

Even if I didn't achieve this VBAC, I feel like the process of preparing really healed me. It made me, it informed me. I feel like I learned so, so much about birth and about how it can be, and now all the resources and how much power we do have. And that I didn't know anything in the first birth.

I'm like, whatever the doctor says is what, what goes, I don't have any, And the second time around, Oh my God, no, I can make any choice I want. And, it was really empowering. I felt super empowered having this knowledge, but also equally frustrated that so many women don't. And I think that's why I'm actually so excited to be sharing my story today is because I want other women to know you have so much power and you have choices to make and you don't need to just go with the flow with whatever your doctor says.

If your gut's telling you something's not right, then go with that. And I can't recommend a doula enough because I feel like not only do you have that power yourself, but they're your cheerleader, and they back you up with that power. They're like, yeah, you do have that power.

Like they reinforce it. And I feel like it's super helpful if you can get one and afford one. But basically, that's what triggered me into further doing things to prep. I made a playlist on Spotify because I actually was going to play it during birth.

But it ended up just being my birth prep playlist, and it was all inspiring songs I would listen to every time I was in the car, and it would make me feel really good. I started listening to hypnobirthing type of stuff, specifically Pop That Mumma by Poppy, she has a hypnobirthing course that you can purchase, which I did.

So I was listening to that in the car and doing breathing. And I thought I was going to use all of these things during my birth the second time around, but it ended up being, I just wanted the opposite, no touching me, no sound. I just wanted to calm and quiet and to just go with it.

So that's funny how that ended up just being how I prepared, mentally, beforehand, but I still think it was very valuable because it kept me in a good headspace. 

Lisa: Exactly. Yeah. The neurological, the mind body, benefits prenatally of all of that stuff can't be underestimated. So I love that. You acknowledge that it still was valuable even if you didn't use it in labor itself.

Donna: 100%. And I wanted to say to all the women out there that I've, I recognize that it's seriously just as much mental, giving birth, if not more than physical. I honestly think it's more. Your body needs to feel comfortable and safe to give birth.

I feel like it goes back to, I don't know, cavewomen days. your body is, if it feels unsafe, like the baby's not going to come out. I truly believe that's a factor. And I actually think that's why I stalled at six the first time. It's not that my body couldn't do it.

It's that I didn't feel safe. It was scary. I was told I'm going to have a C-section if I don't progress. And when you don't feel like you're in a good environment, like that could definitely mess up your headspace. 

Lisa: Sure, for sure. Yeah. And I might have missed you sharing this, but how did VBAC come on your radar to begin with?

I know you shared that with me privately, but would you like to elaborate on that? 

Donna: Of course. So I believe I found it on social media. Cause after I had my first, I followed a bunch of either moms and birth-related, lactation-related, accounts.

And it came up, and that's when I learned that's even a thing because nobody talks about it. I didn't know about it at all before seeing it on social media. So thank God for the other moms out there that share this information for sure. 

Lisa: Absolutely. And at what point in your pregnancy do you remember around how many weeks you were when you hired Chana?

Donna: Oh gosh, I don't remember exactly, but I know it was very, very early on because I only had one appointment with my previous doctor before I ended up switching. 

Lisa: That was what I was wondering about it also, at what point you switched, yeah. 

Donna: Yeah, so it was pretty much right away, and I feel like, I was really nervous to switch, and I almost was thinking, Oh my God, after I got off the phone with Chana, I'm like, did I hire the right doula?

I don't know. She's making me feel nervous. I have to switch my doctors. And then I, after thinking about it more, I said, you know what, Donna, I might be scared, but she's telling me what I need, not what I want to hear. And I ended up, I told Chana at the end that's what makes her so special is that she cares and she wants to be honest with you.

She's not just saying it from information to make me feel good. She wants to look out for you and give you the best advice. So I'm so glad I ended up taking it because, like I said, I don't think I'd be where I am today because that original doctor I learned just wasn't very VBAC supportive.

Lisa: Yeah, it's our job as doulas to listen to our clients and hear what they're hoping for. And in your case, what are you hoping to be different from last time? And how can we best position ourselves to achieve that goal? And sometimes, that guidance, like you're saying, can be a little anxiety producing if it does mean switching providers.

But it sounds like it was so worth the work and the stress of exploring those options and switching because it did help you achieve what you were hoping for, which was a VBAC. 

Donna: Definitely. Exactly. And that's exactly how she stated it. She's like, you can, you know, I'm happy to work with you with this doctor and this hospital, whatever, but I'm just telling you, if you want, your best chance at it, I do recommend these.

So yeah, you're right. No pressure. It was listening, giving that, that good advice and that, that's what we hire you guys for is, you're the professionals. And I told myself that too, like Donna, you might be scared, but this is, she does this all the time. This is what I'm hiring her for.

So I really leaned into that. And before going into my brief story, I do want to note even more prep that I did just for those out there that are trying to have a VBAC. I was doing yoga. I was using the yoga ball to do circles at home.

I feel like movement is for any birth, whether you want a VBAC or just a normal natural birth, like I, and when I say natural, not like nonmedical, but just any type of birth, movement is a beautiful thing. Yes, it is a beautiful thing for sure. and I went to a chiropractor, which I never went to before.

I was very nervous about it. I don't like being cracked and anything like that. And when I went, I experienced it. And they were like, oh no, like we're not going to do that, especially not, you being pregnant and it was so gentle and I really felt, I don't know what the heck they do, but I feel a difference afterwards.

So I highly recommend that if anybody's looking into it. 

Lisa: I'm guessing it was someone who specializes in Webster technique, is that what you found? 

Donna: Yes, exactly. Webster. And I would recommend only going to somebody prenatally that has certification in Webster technique. And I did look that up.

And yeah. And that was wonderful. So yes, movement. And, and do your research, even if you're not trying for a VBAC. I think it's good for women to look at evidence based approaches, which is super important in this, not just by what other people say or what your mom says or what your mother in law says or your friend says, look at evidence based stuff before making choices.

And I did a lot of that and I learned so much. And honestly, I feel like I loved educating others around me that I care about who don't know and you were like breaking the bad cycles of educating others and in changing things. 

Lisa: And that is so beautiful because that's changing lives forever, right?

Because we're protecting our mental, not only physical health, but also mental health. So importantly, we know the Surgeon General, I said this, I think on the last one I recorded too, because it bears repetition, Surgeon General in the U. S. recently issued an alert saying there's a crisis of maternal mental health here. And a lot of it begins in the traumatic experiences that too many people have in giving birth because of some of the many challenges we have in our maternal health care system. And so I love that you're planting seeds among those around you in your spaces to help protect all of that and help families thrive ultimately.

Donna: Thank you. Yeah, like, when I was reading, listening to all these stories of other women, it was so empowering, it honestly, makes me tear up thinking about it. We are so powerful and we all have the tools, and the opportunities to do this and to give birth. It's what we were made for.

Like, how come we don't know this and I just want any moms out there, like first time moms or VBAC planning moms, that you can do this. You can definitely do this. 

Lisa: I love it. And if you, after the podcast, when I email you afterwards, if you'd like to share with us any of the yoga studio or Webster chiropractor, any of those things, you're welcome to send those to me for those out on Long Island in Nassau County. And I'm happy to include those in the show notes. 

Donna: 100%. I would love to share those resources with you guys. 

Lisa: Great, thank you. Alright, anything else on prenatal prep before you share all the details about your VBAC? 

Donna: No, I think I covered it all. 

Lisa: Great, wonderful. you can start wherever you want to.

Donna: Okay. 

So I didn't mention this for my first birth, but actually, my water broke when I was 39 weeks. So the whole time I was thinking, Oh my gosh, my second pregnancy, I'm totally going to go 39 weeks or earlier because it's my second pregnancy and you hear that happens.

So I was literally telling everyone at work, Oh, like I won't be here. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go into labor. And it's so funny that you say these things and then the universe is ha, that's so funny. That's not actually how this is gonna go. It was like, oh, it's embarrassing at work.

I'm like, yeah, I'm still here. So around, I want to say, 39 and a half weeks still, I was still pregnant. So I was like, wow, okay, I've never, this is my first time being pregnant this long because I wasn't pregnant this long the first time around. So I was starting to feel a little anxious and wanting things to move, to progress.

And, but as I was in my research, I also learned that baby’s gonna come when they wanna come. And you just, you trust that, and it doesn't mean that you have less likely a chance to achieve a VBAC or anything like that. So I wasn't worried about that. But I was just saying, it's just for baby to get here, so around that time, 39 and a half weeks, I actually started having prodromal labor, which is something I didn't know anything about until it happened.

It didn't happen the first time around, and for those that don't know it's basically it's, it feels like contractions, but they're very mild. They're very inconsistent. You may have like once in the morning and then not again until the next day. So that's what I was going through for a few days.

And it was like torture because I'm like, Oh my gosh, is this what's happened? Am I going to give birth soon? Or what? And then I, after two days and it's still happening, I was like, okay, I was just ignoring it at this point. And that's what my doula Chana was telling me to do as well.

Ignore it until it becomes really painful or consistent, and then we can pay attention to it. So that was interesting. And I was trying to reframe it in my mind, okay. Donna, this is practice. Instead of getting frustrated about it, I was like, my body is giving me the opportunity to practice for labor. How beautiful is that? 

I never really felt contractions the first time around. Now I get to have a little mild version to prep for the real thing. So I actually ended up being grateful for prodromal labor, after I experienced the real thing. So about, around 40 plus 2, so 40 weeks and 2 days, in the middle of the night, around 1:44 AM, I remember exact time I looked at the clock, I felt crampy, and I thought it was just, another prodromal contraction, but then I felt a little trickle down there, and then a little gush down there, and I was like, oh no, this is my water breaking, and I was getting, I got excited, my husband was asleep, my, toddler, her crib's in our room. She was asleep and I just was thinking to myself, wow, this is happening right now. Like we've been waiting and it's finally the day. So I quietly got up and went to the bathroom and as I did that a little bit more fluid came out and I knew from the first time that, okay, this is definitely my water breaking.

It just wasn't like the huge gush it was the first time. So basically, I left the room, went into the living room and I sat on my yoga ball and I was doing circles and I put on a movie to distract myself. I went and got some food, because I'm like, I don't know how long this is gonna be, so I gotta, I should fuel myself, I should drink water.

I want to mention that's another really key thing, because I'm horrible at hydrating and drinking water. I really think that makes a difference during labor and prep, so I feel like your body needs hydration to fuel. So ladies, definitely fuel up.

And if you're bad at that, like coconut water is what I got and body armor, it was like life saving because I didn't have to like chug a bunch of water. so that was helpful. So I was doing that. I told Chana what was going on, so she was like, okay, this is awesome, she recommended some things to do, like Spinning Babies, Miles circuit, so I was doing all of those.

Lisa: And you did not call your doctor yet?

Donna: I did not.  

Lisa: Big difference, right? 

Donna: Yes. 

Lisa: Between the first and the second? 

Donna: I actually think that is the huge difference in both of these. I'm so glad that you mentioned that. So this time around, because I was informed, I knew already that if I called my doctor, the first thing they were going to say is, okay, come into the hospital for us to check you.

And then once you're at the hospital, you're on a timer. They're worried about infection, they're worried about these things. These things and it's just not as comfortable as at home or anything. And when doing my research, I've learned that infection really isn't at a great risk until about after 24 hours.

So I knew I had a bunch of time and just to be extra safe and extra conservative, I said, okay, I'm going to give myself 12 hours because that means I still have another extra 12 before it's really a risk. My water broke at 1:44 a. m. I actually didn't end up leaving for the hospital until 1 p. m. in the afternoon. So that was right around 12 hours. and I told Chana that I was ready to go. And right before I was ready to go, I called my doctor and I said, Hey, so my water broke last night. And they were like, they said exactly what I thought they were going to say. They're like, okay, great.Come into the hospital. Let's check you. 

So at this point, right before I left at the hospital, I was really feeling the pain. And I was like, okay, this is, again, new. I never felt this before. This is really crazy. And my contractions were never like, I don't know what they say, like that certain, few minutes apart.

They were still a little bit sporadic, but definitely more painful and consistent. And I was, I was struggling with them for sure. But I was using a comb, which was actually like, it's such an awesome tool that I didn't realize was going to be that beneficial, it's basically get any like hair comb and squeeze it in your hand and the basically like making a little bit painful and you're in your hand is like it takes away from the pain of a contraction.

But it actually does work. And it was helping me. So every time that happened, I was squeezing that comb. The car ride was not fun at all. I was, like, in the backseat, holding on for dear life, and any time a contraction came, it was just, it was not fun. So I'm so glad that I left when I did.

And then, once I got to the hospital, Oh, actually, I'm sorry, I want to backtrack a little bit before I really get into what happened at the hospital. You know, during the prodromal labor, when wanting to speed things along, I actually ended up scheduling an induction massage.

And what she was doing, I forget the oil that she used, but I'll make sure to share it with you guys after. But she was doing all these things, and I was told that, if this works, you're gonna go into labor, within 24 to 48 hours. And that actually is exactly what happened.

I saw her, and then I saw you. I saw my chiropractor and like literally 24 hours later is when my water broke. I don't know if it was just meant to be, but I like to think that it definitely helped. If anything, it helped calm me and put me in a good mental health space.

Lisa: Which can't be underestimated, right? 

Donna: Cannot be underestimated. So I think with all that, like I was keeping all of those relaxation thoughts in my mind while going through this pain and I just kept telling myself, Donna you've been prepping for this, you know this whole time and it's finally, you know the day, this is finally happening like in between contractions I kept trying to like, you know tell myself all these positive things and I want to share how important that is to like having these affirmations laid out beforehand, whether you write them down, whether you text them to yourself, or share them with your doula, or have your doula share them with you, but like having, positive affirmations definitely helps when you're, in pain, to remind yourself like why you're doing this.

So I actually, I also ended up making, beaded bracelets that had my, my daughter's name on it, my, my future daughter's name, my second daughter's name on it, and then I had you got this, warrior, and like all these, all of these things to, to remind myself that, I can do this. And I swear I really, held on to that.

And even though I didn't end up using hypnobirthing in birth or listening to my birth Spotify list, I actually, I, it's like all those things because I was doing it so consistently was, like, ingrained in my mind. And, I remember one podcast I listened to from Pop That Mama podcast, was saying how, really tune in, don't be shy, like, when you're having this, the pain, release any sound, be, like, animalistic, whatever feels normal, natural, go for it.

And I swear, I really tuned into that because my husband was like, I've never heard any sound like that before in my life. And anytime I had a contraction, like, when they first wheeled me into the hospital, I had one with When they were checking me in, they took my ID, and then I had one, and I was just like, like, right before I was even checked in, and I didn't care who was looking at me or who was watching, and it honestly, I feel like it really helped me, get through, they say that, there's a connection between your, sound or mouth and, I don't know if it's your vagina or something down there, but, it relaxes, yeah, so it's so funny, and I really.

Believe that there's, there's truth to that. So basically that's what I was doing to get through the contractions. And, I ended up being, it ended up being around 2:00 PM when they checked me, I gotta the hospital around 1:30 PM they checked me around 2:00 PM a cervical check, and I was four centimeters dilated, which, was very exciting for me because the first time.

I went in and I was only one centimeter. So this was like, Oh, my gosh. Yeah, like I definitely progressed at home. And I also recognize that, how dilated you are really means nothing as far as how far along you are in the labor process, you can go from four to 10 in a short amount of time, or can take much longer.

So I tried not to focus on the number too much. But it was exciting to see that it was more than the first time around. So at this point, my doula came and met me at the hospital and she set up all the things and set up a nice, beautiful little mood with candles and everything.

And I knew right away, I wanted to try out laboring in the shower. Cause that, that wasn't an option the first time around. And I like the idea of like warm water kind of distracting me from the pain. I learned that you can use a wireless monitor. Again, nothing I knew about beforehand.

I know a lot of hospitals are still like maybe newer to this as well. So that might not always be an option, but I checked beforehand and, Realized that this was an option here. So I requested that right away once they put the wireless monitor on me I went into the shower with my doula and It was very nice in the beginning, but I think just hospital showers like the temperature wasn't really staying warm It was like staying warm and then I'd get cool and then I would have to make it hotter So it went it didn't end up being exactly what I envisioned in the shower, but I loved that I had the Option to try that out then when it wasn't working, I went back to the bed and then I,was basically trying to move around as much as I could.

Just because I didn't get that chance the first time around, and I realized every time I moved, like a contraction would come on. Like it would be super strong. It's like the baby, loved the movement. I don't know, but it was really like my body was. Yeah, my body was loving the movement.

Lisa: Yeah, and the downward pressure of the baby's head on the cervix that sends a signal to create the contraction. 

Donna: Totally. And yeah, you feel, you read about that. Totally. You read about that. But then when you're feeling it in real time, you're like, yeah, there that's what's happening. at one point I was I was starting to get, a little tired of moving around and I was in bed and I wasn't moving much and, my husband, said to me, which I'm so surprised he, he said this, but he's this is not what you planned for or wanted,you want to move around, you want to, I want to do things.

And I said, because I was in so much pain at this point and I was tired from the contractions, but I was like, Oh my God, you're right. this, I needed to, remember that this isn't, remind that all the things that I learned about prenatally and I said, okay, so I got up again and I started doing, my squats and trying different positions and it ended up like finding a position like that, that really felt good after each contraction.

And I was like, Oh my God, I would have never known that if I just stayed in the bed. So I'm so glad that he spoke up and said that between his encouragement and my doulas, it really, ended up being like a, a team effort, beautiful thing. So after about, I want to say, Until 8 p. m. I was laboring without an epidural.

I knew this time around I wanted to push it off as much as possible, just because I wanted to, first of all, experience what labor really felt like, and, and give my body a chance to progress without any type of intervention. I wasn't opposed to it. but I was like, I wanted to wait as long as possible.

So around 8 p. m. they checked me and they said that I was eight centimeters dilated. And I was like, oh my goodness, eight centimeters. We were like, I was so excited. I had butterflies in my stomach. I was like, this is crazy. And then they were like, my doctor came in and they were like, I really think we should do some Pitocin just to make your contractions a little bit stronger and more consistent.

And then the nurse was also telling me how Epidural is an option and it could really relax me. And they've seen after, cause I was so exhausted at this point, I've been up since 1:44 the previous night. So I was exhausted. And, I really felt like I was losing momentum and like the strength to really go on.

And I'm like, I know like the hardest part is like the pushing and all that. So you know, from what I read and I was like, maybe I should just get the epidural to relax. So I said, maybe this is the time, even though I am at eight. So I said, okay, I'll do the epidural. 

The anesthesiologist came in, they put it in, and I was like, as soon as I felt pain relief, I was like, oh my god, yes, okay, I'm so glad I did this because I was not able to get any rest without it, it would end up being a beautiful thing for me, so anyone that, that's scared about it or wanted to do it natural, just know like it can be, a beautiful tool and that's exactly what it is.

It's just a tool in the toolbox, just like any of the other things, whether you choose to do it, use it or not. I'm very glad that I did. It relaxed me. I was actually, and I, It was able to get some sleep with it and because I had a doula, and I ended up having an amazing nurse at the time too, they both were like, let's get the peanut ball, let's make sure we move you around, even with the epidural.

So they changed positions every so often, which was like, again, nothing I experienced the first time around. I love that I was still able to move around even with the epidural. they were so encouraging and It was so lovely to have them support. And then I got the rest they needed.

So-- 

Lisa: I'm so glad you're pointing that out. Can I just interject real quick? just a lot of people assume that a doula only attends unmedicated births and it couldn't be further from the truth. We can, as you were just demonstrating very specifically, we have strategies to help labor to continue to progress in a healthy way as much as possible in any scenario, including in, if someone gets an epidural, which is really common, I love that. That's great. 

Donna: Yeah. And,it ended up being a godsend. I was like, oh my gosh, this is a wonderful thing. And, so after I was able to get some sleep, they came in and checked me again.

And because, I guess the first, when they first checked me at 8 PM, they, Because I don't know if I was tense or what exactly was the reasoning or maybe just the doctor messed up, but they checked again and I actually was only five centimeters, not eight. So at this point I was like, okay.

And, I could have easily, been distraught and very upset and whatever, but I said, you know what, I don't wanna get instead negative headspace yet., I definitely had some intrusive thoughts at this point, saying Donna, this is happening again, like you're not going to progress, like it's like the first and then I said, no, this is, and this is where Chana really saved me and came and told me and reassured me multiple times, Donna, this is not your first birth, this is not your first birth.

You already did so many things differently. You came in, not right away. you, You labored on your own for so long, like she was naming all these things I already did that was not like the first time. So I kept telling that to myself over and I said, okay, we're still in this, there's, there's no rush, that happened, okay, and I just, I let it go, I really wanted to stay in that positive mindset.

I did and I just kept resting and, about around midnight, they checked me again and I was plus two, ready to push. And I swear that I did not believe it because of this, because what, what just happened, like I got so excited about the eight and then it ended up not being, so I was like, almost, I was like, you know what?

I'm not even going to get too excited yet until this baby is like coming out. I think some of them. Either a nurse or a doctor was a little bit skeptical when they heard that was happening because they knew that I was trying for a VBAC because the nurse was like, she's plus two and shouted it out and everyone was like so excited and like the energy was just beautiful.

I actually ended up having Dr. Bentley on, She's the woman doctor in the practice, at the time, and all my nurses were women, and I just felt like it was such a beautiful, moment of all women, we're all excited, we're trying for this VBAC, and I feel like because I got the epidural, I was able to be present in that moment, towards the end, and relaxed, and not feeling any pain, and I'm so grateful for that, because I feel like if I was in pain, I wouldn't be able to remember it as clearly as I do.

And I was just like, I could not believe that this was happening to me in the most beautiful way. So we got into the position to push and the doctor was coaching me through things. The nurses were giving me some tips. Chana was giving me some tips. And, at one point I was like, I'm going to try a different position just because of things I've read on and I was like, I'm gonna give this a try.

So my doctor she's like, sure, let's do it. Let's give it a try for the next push. I moved around and tried different things. And again, when you find a doctor that's supportive, for a VBAC or just your regular birth,That's such a green flag,them, open to whatever you want to try, this is your birth, if it's not hurting you or baby,if the doctor's open to it, that's such a wonderful, beautiful thing, and she was like, let's do this.

I also brought, I read that,you're less likely to have a big tear if you rub olive oil down there right before baby's coming. So it's so funny, I ended up bringing like the spray olive oil bottle from Trader Joe's. And we were all having a laugh, we were all having a laugh.

The doctor's like I've never seen this before. She's but let's do it. And she's like, testing out the spray beforehand. And she was just like, it ended up being a hilarious thing. and she was down to give it a try, to lubricate me down there. and as I was pushing, when it was that time, she's like, I see the hair do you want to touch it?

And I was like, no, I don't want to touch it. And then everyone was like, Donna, just touch it. They were very encouraging to me in a very nice way. And I said, I touched it like, oh my God, it's so crazy. And then she sprayed the olive oil and we're all having a laugh.

And, basically I was pushing for about an hour, I would say. And then, I felt the baby coming out, towards the last push, and the doctor was like, she's coming. Do you want to pull her out? And I was hesitant for a second, but then I was like, okay.

And I literally reached down, and I helped pull out my baby and put her on my chest. And when I tell you, it was the most Beautiful, rewarding, insane experience. I can't even begin to describe how healing and amazing that was. Like, it felt so surreal that I was, I have been dreaming of achieving this and it actually was happening.

And I ended up pulling out my own baby, which I read in other people's birth stories, and I was like, wow, that would be a bonus thing if I could ever do that, but I didn't think it ever would happen, and it happened, and, again, because I had a beautiful doctor who even gave me the opportunity to do that, I feel like the support around you is so important, and I think that's vital to achieving a VBAC and I had my baby on me and I gave birth to her and while I was holding her, they actually ended up checking her, the pediatrician came because my water broke so long ago, they wanted to make sure everything was good.

Everything was good. She was healthy and beautiful. She came out six pounds, 14 ounces and, I got to like enjoy her on me I ended up did tearing, I got like a second degree tear, but I still to this day told the doctor if we didn't use the olive oil would have been a third or fourth degree tear, and she laughed at that, but I was able to relax and enjoy, my baby while she was sewing me up and stuff because of the epidural, like I really, I'm so glad that I ended up getting it at the end, and delivered my placenta and all that.

I didn't have to worry about being scared of any pain, but I did it at this point. And I kept telling my husband, I said, I did it. I could not believe it. And still to this day, I can't believe it. This is the first time I'm sharing my full birth story out loud and not just in my head, to someone else.

Lisa: Aw, I'm even more honored. 

Donna: Yeah, it feels really beautiful and I can't wait to share it with people around me and that my family and friends when I do get to see them and share my birth story and I'm so glad that I got to do it the first time here with you and, with all the women that are listening and looking for some hope, whether for a healthy normal birth or looking to achieve the VBAC.

I'm here to say it's possible. I did it. I didn't think I could, and I did it. 

Lisa: Amazing. Rockstar. Thank you. I love it. I love it. I love it. And I just want to point out, at least here in New York City area hospitals, it is not common at all for a provider to say, Hey, do you want to reach down and bring your baby to your chest?

I love that. That brings me so much joy. For those who want to, or might want to, you might not even know if you want to until you're in it. But yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's really common in birthing centers and home births. It's much more common in those birth settings, but not nearly as common in a hospital.

And so I'm a big fan of the fact that you had that experience because you were describing how beautiful that was, instinctive-- 

Donna: It was monumental. It was like the reward. Like it empowered me so much and it would heal me so much. so much to be able to do that. Like I pulled out my own freaking baby and yeah, I would have never thought to put that on my birth plan.

But hey ladies, maybe you might want to if your doctor's open to it. 

Lisa: I just on Sunday was teaching a class in which I was pointing that out. Just one of many things to consider. Do you want to talk with your provider, your doctor, your midwife about, Can I catch my baby? Can I be part of that?

Yeah, I think most of our hospitals, if they would be cool with that, it would be like with your doctor. Midwives, it's much more common, even in a hospital setting, much more common for them to be cool with that, but partially might just depend on the hospital policy and who's in the room and who's watching.

Donna: I'm so glad she let me do that. I ended up cutting the umbilical cord as well. they first asked my husband and he didn't want to do it the first time either.

I don't know if it freaks him out or what, or he doesn't want to mess anything up. But he was like, no, I'm okay. And then they were encouraging me to do it and I was like, okay, fine. I already pulled her out. let me cut the umbilical cord too. So it was such a, like it was my moment. Like I did this.

It was so rewarding and just amazing and a totally different experience than the first time around for sure. I was active in my birth and in the choices and it was not the case the first time around. I knew the power I had. I knew the choices I had.

And I really took advantage of that. And, like I said, having supportive people around you is so important. the doctors and even the nurses. And I ended up reading in a birth story too, that one woman had a nurse that was just like, wasn't pleasant and just was giving very negative vibes and she wasn't feeling it.

And then, she ended up learning later on that, that you can actually ask to have a different nurse, and I'm like, wow, I didn't know you can do that. So if anybody came in that wasn't having great vibes, I could just, I can ask, to maybe have somebody else, we're just not connecting or whatever.

So that's an option. I didn't know that. and if you don't feel comfortable, you can have your partner or your doula request that change for you. But again, thankfully, I didn't need to do that at any point. But, I knew I had that choice. And just knowing that was super empowering.

I'd wanted all the vibes to be good and positive around me. And it definitely paid off. 

Lisa: Yeah, I love it.anything you wanted to highlight in terms of the initial postpartum, like while you were there in the hospital, either time? 

Donna: Sure. I think I was still in, dream la la land for a while afterwards because I couldn't believe I achieved it.

I wanted to pinch myself. I couldn't believe that I did it. And right away, I speed texted myself my whole birth story to not forget any detail because I knew sometimes after postpartum you can forget things cause you're not like in that zone.

So I made sure to do that. which I highly suggest for anybody who wants to remember some little details in case they forget after. And I'm so glad I did. so I did that and I was just. resting. I had my toddler at home. so my husband stayed until the next morning. But then I was one night away from our baby.

I was like, she needs us. We've never been away from her ever, overnight. So I sent my husband home and I just stayed with the baby alone, which was, at moments it felt like So nice to be quiet and just with the baby alone and have my time with her but then I was also sad like missing my husband and my other baby at home so That was a little difficult, but I still felt so much different than I did the first time around as far as, sadness, I was feeling a lot lighter, happier, maybe because I just achieved my VBAC, but I was definitely in a better, headspace.

Physically, I thought I would be a little bit, feeling a little bit better having a vaginal birth, but actually, it felt crazy down there, I was walking like I needed a cane almost. Like a lot of, a lot felt a lot of things down in the vaginal region that I did not feel after having a C-section.

But still much better than having major surgery, so that was really nice. And after 24 hours in, postpartum in the hospital, I requested to go home a little early so I can get back to my family. And thankfully they granted that, so my husband and my daughter came, and, Picked me up like the next day and it was so nice for them for my babies to meet each other and that was a beautiful moment and, it was just totally different and I don't know, maybe because I had another kid at home and I knew I needed to be in a better headspace, but it just, and or that I was already a mom and it wasn't like as huge change as it was the first time around.

But again, I wasn't as emotional. I was still feeling all the postpartum hormones and normal things like that and normal little baby blues, but it wasn't nearly like it was the first time. And I knew I needed to be on like for my toddler. And it was a different experience in that sense.

But yeah, it was really wonderful. I'm still postpartum now. It's only seven weeks out. I actually still didn't have my six week checkup yet. I'm supposed to have it today because the doctor needed to reschedule last week. So it's so funny that I'm doing this podcast today and then today I'm going to meet the doctor that helped me achieve my VBAC.

So it's a beautiful day today. 

Lisa: Oh, I love it. and anything you wanted to highlight in terms of for you psychologically, emotionally, as you were pregnant and expecting your second or since the, any observations and growing your family and complicated feelings about having a second and anything along those lines, or ways that you prepared your toddler, if any, for becoming a sibling.

Donna: Totally, totally. Throughout my whole pregnancy, I kept, explaining to my toddler what's happening, like I'm having a baby, and as my belly grew, she was able to make that connection Say like, oh, mommy has baby in belly and everything, I kept telling, I bought books and everything to like, talk to her about a little sister's coming and doing all that prep, but I will say nothing prepares you for when they actually are here and nothing really prepares if you have a young toddler.

Because, even now, she's definitely struggling with it a little bit, because she can't fully communicate to me what's going on,or why she's, acting out, or having tantrums, or it can be just because she turned two, and these are just normal things that happen, but, yeah, but she's definitely, not totally herself, and I know she definitely wants our attention more, and that's really hard, and, So me and my husband actually navigate trying to navigate that right now and we're doing, all the things to help her make her feel loved and supported, as well, but it's definitely a challenge.

And I think going from zero to one, in my opinion, was a lot harder because you're a new mom. You don't know anything and you're learning everything for the first time. even with breastfeeding, like I chose breastfeeding for the first time around and now I'm breastfeeding as well and I already know how to do that so it's one less thing I have to learn about and so it feels a lot more relaxed in that sense of knowledge like you're already a mom but I think it's also you're learning how to be a mom of two so that's new 

Lisa: One thing I was just thinking about is when we had our second, our older one was, Not quite three, a little older than yours. But one thing we found helpful and I'm sure you probably already doing this, but like finding ways for the older sibling to help, even if it's small things,

We found that helped so much and helped them feel loved and included and confident, I can help with these things, 

Donna: Exactly. I talk to my newborn about my toddler and I'll say, oh,isn't Sienna so smart for doing that? Or isn't she 

Lisa: Yeah, oh, I love it.

Donna: Brave for trying that or even so we're constantly telling my toddler to, and my doula was telling me this too,you're constantly telling your toddler to wait one minute. And then to also do that to your newborn sometimes, oh, one, mommy will come in one minute and make sure your toddler is listening just to know she's not the only one being told to wait.

And I feel like that's definitely like a awesome, like little hack to make sure she feels like, okay, mommy's telling both of us that we need to wait sometimes. 

Lisa: I wish I had gotten that tip. Yeah, I don't know if I really did that, and I wish I had. 

Donna: They're always, the toddlers are always listening even when you think they're not, or they're listening mostly when you think they're not, which is 

Lisa: Right, so true.

Donna: Yeah, I do want to mention one thing briefly because I feel like, mom, some moms might benefit from hearing this because this is also something taboo that maybe We don't really talk about that much, but I will say that, I was worried, oh my gosh,am I going to love my second child, as much as I love my first child and I definitely love my second child just as much as my first.

Your heart definitely grows and expands, but I will say like in the beginning postpartum even a little now still I'm still like I'm you know, they're just like a little blob they just eat and they just go to sleep, So you don't really know their personality yet, or it can still be maybe in the postpartum hormonal bubble. But I feel like I don't really know her yet.

So sometimes my love feels different from my toddler because I know her, I know what she likes, I know her personality, I know these things, and you don't really know your newborn like that, so if it feels different or weird, just know that's normal and that I'm feeling that and that I, from reading and listening to other women's experiences, I've learned That changes and it gets different and better and, but just I want to normalize any feelings you feel postpartum, like they are normal and pretty much most of them are fleeting, and that it doesn't mean that you're a bad mom or there's anything wrong or that you don't love your newborn, because I know I love her, it just definitely feels a little bit different and that may happen with every kid that you have, but, but I am realizing that I'm experiencing it this time around having the second baby.

Lisa: I love that. That's great wisdom. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. So common. So common. To be like, am I going to love, like, how can I love? Yeah. It's so funny as much as I love my first baby, but yeah, and I just especially love that observation that when they're newborns, you just don't know their personality.

There's so much to grow and learn in your love for them. And it is always evolving. That's true with all relationships as we get to know each other and deepen that bond and deepen that relationship. So that's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that insight. 

Donna: Of course. And you're not spending as much time with them one on one maybe physically, but,you're tending to your toddler as well if you have, or other kids if you have them.

So it's different the second time around as well because of that. 

Lisa: Yeah, for sure. 

All right. Is there anything else that you haven't gotten to share that you were wanting to share? 

Another way to frame this would be if you were to write yourself a letter,your pre mother, pre parent self, are there any specific things you would really want to just emphasize? 

Donna: For sure. I would tell my previous self or any pregnant mamas out there that prep is vital.

I feel like it doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to have a vaginal birth or even the birth that you want, but I think mentally it really helps prepare you, it makes you feel informed and then no matter how things go in the end, you know that you did, all you could.

And I feel like that really can help. so learn as much as you can, evidence based, things not just other people's advice. I would definitely look at both things. listen to all the birth stories you can listen to, both positive and negative because, or not necessarily negative, but maybe not the way that the moms hoped their birth would come just to learn all the things.

I think prep's very important and movement is also extremely important, whether that's walking or yoga or whatever you feel comfortable with, doing, movement is so important as well. And keeping your body healthy, do something for your mind, whether it's something you love or you find relaxing during pregnancy, that also is helpful.

But then and affirmations totally. Know that you can do this. And that,you have so many tools in the toolbox. and that's why part of learning is learning about all those tools and what choices you have to make. Having a doula is amazing if you can afford it, if you have that opportunity.

I suggest a doula for every single person, new mom or not. I think you can always benefit from that and that we were made for this is what I want to tell everyone out there is that we were made for this and,have a select people around you that are going to be supportive and loving and,help you achieve the birth that you want or be there for you if things maybe don't go exactly how you want. 

Lisa: Well said. Thank you so much, Donna. It's been a pleasure and honor to have you here with us. 

It's been so nice to talk out loud about my birth story and to share everything with you guys. Thank you so much, Lisa.