Birth Matters Podcast, Ep 104 - An Endurance Athlete's Desire for an Unmedicated Birth (Part 2)

In part 2 of this 2-episode birth story, Jessica shares the rest of her unmedicated birth story with midwives in an NYC hospital. She details the contrast of her very positive birth experience to the postpartum care experience, discusses some initial breastfeeding challenges in which an IBCLC provides stellar support and addresses a lip tie & tongue tie her son had. She also shares how important a postpartum virtual support group the our doula collective offered was for her as a new parent and the essential community of support she discovered there.

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Episode Topics:

  • Starts pushing on her right side

  • Directed pushing starts, long count of 10 - thought she wouldn’t need it but just wanted to meet baby and it actually did feel better for her

  • Could only bear down for a count of 3, not 10

  • She could hear the cries of new babies and a song the hospital plays every time a baby is born; this was grounding for her

  • Vocalizing during pushing, doula encouraging her to keep it low, but eventually Jessica went higher with her tone

  • The ring of fire caused her to tense up and feel fearful, doula supports even more; it’s the most painful part for her

  • Midwife invites her to feel baby’s head, but she changed her mind and didn’t want to

  • Another contraction comes and Jessica senses this is the time for baby to be born

  • Head is born, energy in room changes

  • Then last push and baby is born – incredible feeling - carnal, animal sensation

  • Baby comes to chest - feels surreal, Don & Jaime both crying

  • She was surprised she didn’t cry, felt more relief

  • Couldn’t see very well, didn’t have glasses on and had been very inward

  • Didn’t realize for a while that baby was born en caul (with membrane intact)

  • 2nd degree tear, repair not fun but doula helped support her through it

  • Eye ointment was done accidentally, which she didn’t really want

  • Postpartum experience not nearly as positive - difficult to get food, painkiller, all the disruptions

  • Getting weighed and being told the number even when she turned her back to the scale, didn’t feel necessary

  • Finding their voice to advocate for their needs, midwives affirming that they should advocate

  • Had a hard time breastfeeding getting started - requested lactation consultant support

  • Seeking an IBCLC’s support and Kara from City Lactation - gave very specific instructions to triple feed because baby was losing too much weight

  • Triple feeding was really hard, tons of work but starts to work

  • Got lip & tongue tie diagnosed by Dr. Fettina (sp) at Gramercy Kids Smiles in Manhattan

  • Tried chiropractic, not really for them

  • Having wonderful support from Annie & Kara, even 8 months out re: weaning

  • Joining BeHeld postpartum group hosted by East River Doulas

  • Achiever mindset (Gallup strengths assessment) - really challenging personality trait into parenthood, continues to be challenging

Interview Transcript

Jessica: And so they did one more check and I was 10 centimeters.

Yeah, it was great news, but she was like, do you feel the urge to push? And I said, yeah, but I didn't really, I just was feeling a lot of pressure. And I mean, the pain, it was pain, right? Like I've been intentional in talking about it as intensity, but at a certain point, intensity was just, was downright pain.

And I was having increasing pain in my lower back and that was where the most intense pain was happening, which surprised me. So I just was like, well, I'm 10 centimeters, so a little lie here won't hurt and I just wanna get cleared to start pushing. because maybe if I start pushing this baby will come out sooner.

I wasn't doubting myself, but I was ready to get a break from everything. So. 

Lisa: And you said you were still, you were lying on the bed at this point? 

Jessica: Yeah. Still on my side. So we tried pushing and basically they were like, yeah, you can start pushing. I started pushing on my right side and, This is the point where the experience that I had diverged a little bit from what I would've ideally preferred in that like someone was holding my leg and someone was counting to 10, which I almost laughed at the first time they did it because I was like, 10, I can barely make it to three.

You have to be kidding, right? Like 10, they were sort of like, hold your breath. And there was a little bit of that, like coached purple pushing, which was not what I had wanted. And in the moment, I was getting increasingly eager to have the process be over. 

Lisa: Sure. 

Jessica: I was willing to go there, but I found it absolutely hilarious 1, 2, 3... 

Lisa: I know, slow right? 

Jessica: Yeah. And I was like that's all I have. What else do you want me to do? Like four through 10, and they, I keep saying they, cause I had my glasses off and I mostly had my eyes closed.

I needed to be very closed in and so I don't know who was talking to me honestly, but whoever they were, suggested that maybe I try rolling on my back cuz I didn't have enough force on my side. Okay. So again, that was not part of the plan. But I was like, I'll do anything at this point.

Even though it hadn't been such a long process, because at that point it was probably 9:30 at night, so 15 hours into labor and I knew that it was unlikely, statistically, that the baby was coming so quickly. But I had that second cervical check and was told, you're at 10 centimeters. Yay. Do you wanna try and do this? And I took that as license to, just really in a way, replicate all of those scenes that you see in TV and the movies.

Taking Control and Switching Positions

Jessica: And I think some of the things that I had thought I had prepared for did go out the window at that point in terms of, it's not you who expels the baby, it's your uterus. Just let your body do the process. Like I was like, I'm taking control of this and I'm gonna, I will get this baby out.

And the discomfort that I was in pushed me into that place mentally. And I thought, I got this far so I can do this. So I was encouraged to roll onto my back because being on my side with the peanut ball just was not...they were trying to count me through some pushing, timed with the contractions and, I could hear them murmuring she's not strong enough.

She doesn't have enough strength in this position.

Lisa: Huh. Thanks.

Jessica: Yeah. But I did--

Lisa: Did it feel that way to you?

Jessica: It did feel that way to me because the peanut ball was in an uncomfortable position and it wasn't, it was probably not the right size peanut ball. So I was having to work to hold it in place and didn't have a lot of extra energy at that point to give to the process.

Lisa: That makes sense.

Jessica: When I rolled on my back, I did feel like I had a new set of muscles or just more of an ability to bear down. So I felt the force, more strongly at that point. And so they're counting me through 10. And I could get through pushing very hard through maybe three counts. And then after that, I felt bewildered and in my mind I was looking around, how do you expect me to make it to 10? There's no way. Like I can't, I'm giving so much effort. This is a joke, right? This is a joke, guys.

Like of course I couldn't express any of that, but there were these two moments that happened during that, probably 40 minute process from when I went onto my back and really started that act active and coached pushing, which was that I could hear the cries of new babies on the floor, twice. And at Metropolitan Hospital, they play a little song on the labor and delivery floor over the loudspeaker every time a baby is born. A little like twinkly, like lullaby type song. So that was such a grounding moment for me, because I felt pretty confident that my baby might be the next one. And, it was just really sweet to hear those new baby cries, just through the walls.

Lisa: I love that you noticed that. That's really cool.

Jessica: It encouraged me. Yeah. I'm leaving out the part where I heard some screaming also.

Lisa: Sure.

Vocalizing and Final Pushes

Jessica: There was the screaming and then the cry. I, yeah, speaking of screaming, I myself was screaming at the end. I had been focused so hard and had a wonderful nurse there who just kept telling me to go low.

And my doula kept telling me like, keep it low, go lower, like in terms of my voice and these guttural sounds that I was making and using to get through. But at a certain point, when I started to feel the crowning happening, I found these very high notes in my register and was just, I was just all out screaming and during that sort of penultimate push when I felt the crowning start to happen, that was a really scary moment for me. It just, the sensation of burning and stretching and it caused so much fear because it was a very different type of pain than what I had experienced during the whole 16 hours leading up to it.

And even though I knew to expect it, that was the one moment of doubt where I definitely, I backed away. Like physically, I actually felt myself close up. And I felt Jamie actually come inward a little bit again. And talk about the mind body connection because the fear of can I do this? 

If it's gonna require even more than that, then I don't know if I can do that. That was the sort of the one moment where I questioned my ability. But it had to happen, right? There was no other way. And, so that was probably the most painful moment of the entire experience was that penultimate push. The midwife was very kind. She said, do you wanna reach down and feel your baby's head? Because I had indicated in triage that I was interested in that. And I said, no, I don't wanna do that. I was too scared. I thought I might feel something that would be traumatizing and I was concerned about tearing and, so I just in the moment just said, no.

And so she said, okay, it's okay, That's fine. And–

Lisa: I think it can be really unpredictable, in ways, right? What we think we might want, then often it changes and that's okay. We just have to roll with it, right?

Jessica: Yeah, yeah. The next contraction came and I think, I don't remember if someone said out loud or if I just knew that this could be the one, and so I just gave it everything that I had and there was heat and the ring of fire and burning and pressure and pain but then the whole atmosphere in the room changed all of a sudden because the head was out, and I'm not sure I could tell physically that's what had happened.

But they were like, just one more. And we'll get the shoulders out and then that's it. Your baby's here. And that last push to birth his body was such an incredible feeling. I felt everything, I felt these limbs coming out of me. And it just felt like this warm and wet and carnal and very animal sensation, very slippery.

Meeting Her Baby

Jessica: And, then there he was, and then they just put him on my chest. And, it was just a totally surreal moment. Don was crying, Jamie was crying, and it was just such a beautiful moment. And, I thought I would cry, I'm a pretty emotional person but I didn't cry at all.

I was just in so much relief that the labor was over, or at least, most of it. And I still didn't have my glasses on. I had my eyes closed for almost all of the last few hours. It just helped me concentrate and focus. So I still, I couldn't see very easily. And I think I might have also been a little slow to just open my eyes and like come to this new thing that's happening.

Baby Born En Caul

Jessica: But I heard them talking about he was born in the membrane, and I was like, what? And by the time I think I saw, really saw him and maybe put my glasses on, someone must have handed me my glasses, he was no longer in the membrane. But we do have a picture of the midwife, like holding up the membrane, and they were like, well, we guess your water didn't break earlier.

Kind of makes sense, but like the ball you were bouncing on was wet, so we weren't really sure. So anyway, your water never broke, but he was born en caul. So I thought that was cool and special. And that explained why when Don was watching those last few pushes and Jamie's head was starting to crown, I guess he didn't recognize what he was seeing because he was seeing the sac intact over his head.

And he was like, that doesn't look like a baby's head. What is being born here, exactly. So he shared that with me later.

Lisa: Yeah, and sometimes it can be membranes and baby's head is right up against it, or sometimes there can be some forewaters, some fluid there, which can make it even squishier than the baby's head is. Yeah. How interesting.

Jessica: He said it looked bluish and he was like, I'm pretty sure that whatever our baby's head looks like, it's not blue. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was cool. And I don't know, is it true that it's a symbol of good luck or something like that?

Lisa: Yeah. It's thought to be a very auspicious sign in some cultures, and the Dalai Lama has to be born en caul to become the Dalai Lama. Did you ever, I just wanted to ask if they ever suggested artificially doing a low, artificial rupture of the membranes or, because they thought it had ruptured, didn't, or, I was just curious about that.

Jessica: Yeah. It was never suggested. I didn't get the feeling based on the very deep respect I felt for my birth plan in that hospital that such a thing would've even been suggested, to me personally. Based on though, just the types of, I would say dialogue, but it wasn't really dialogue that we had in triage when I presented myself and handed the paper over.

But I think they got the idea that something like that would probably not interest me. So it never came up and they never made a big deal about whether my water had broken or not. They just were speculating that it had, and I didn't know what that would feel like.

And I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong, that it can be very different, right? For some people it's a gush, for some people it's a trickle.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: I knew I didn't have a big gush moment, but I didn't think that meant anything necessarily.

Lisa: Yeah, I love that. And I just wanted to ask that and point that out a little bit because it is so common with most of our hospital OBs anyway, to just say, I'm just gonna break your water, especially in the pushing stage. And especially, if things are going slowly and you had a fairly efficient labor, right?

So that could be another reason. But also I just love that you were very thoughtful about your choice of birth location and provider so that you had such respectful care who really honored your preferences and your wishes. So hooray. Yeah, those en caul births are very rare in most hospitals because of what I just detailed.

Jessica: I see.

Lisa: I love hearing that. That's really cool. I don't think I knew that part of your birth story yet. So a fun surprise.

Golden Hour

Jessica: Yeah. It was great. And I do remember, when I first held him, again, I didn't really have my glasses on yet, but I felt the umbilical cord wrapped around his left leg and it was just cool to get to feel what that felt like. And he stayed with me for the golden hour and the midwives, or nurses at that point, did hook up Pitocin drip, which I was fine with.

Just to prevent hemorrhage, they helped me deliver the placenta, which they then showed me upon request. So I got to just take a peek 'cause I thought that was really cool. And I did wind up having a second degree tear, so they got to work, stitching that back up, which was not my favorite part of the experience, suffice to say, but, Jaime, my doula, stayed with me the whole time and, just talking to her actually helped me get through that, experience of just having to lay there still, and I still had Jamie on me. And we're just sort of having our moment and, they took Jamie over to the other side of the room, I think after the golden hour.

And, they did a, like a second Apgar score, which I recently was going through some of the paperwork and saw that he got a nine on both of his Apgar tests, which, cool. Good job, kiddo.

Lisa: As close to perfect as you usually will get.

Jessica: Yeah, so that–

Lisa: 10's a perfect score, but almost no baby gets a 10.

Jessica: Yeah, I didn't know at the time either of his scores, but I figured if there was an issue, they would let me know.

Second Degree Tear

Lisa: Can I ask you a quick question on the tearing? At what point, if you remembered, at what point did they tell you what degree tear you had? Or did you just see it in your record later or.

Jessica: No, they told me while I was still in the delivery room, like while they're taking a look and analyzing and figuring out how are we gonna try to help with the stitches. There was some debate back and forth and that was what they landed on. So they just discussed it openly in front of me.

Lisa: Oh, great. I think that's great because you deserve to know, have the specifics about the state of your pelvic floor, especially if you were to go seek out pelvic PT, if anyone was to, it's helpful to just have some knowledge. Because it's your body and so many people aren't told that, so I really am grateful to hear that again, another great sign of a good respectful care provider is telling you that information. Either some people aren't really hearing it in the moment, so either in the moment or at least at some point. Yeah.

Slight Miscommunication

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that. There was one mix up in terms of communication where I had requested that Jamie not get that, is it like an antibiotic eye ointment?

Lisa: Yep. Erythromycin. 

Jessica: Yeah, I had requested that we skip that but it would be fine for him to get the Vitamin K and Hepatitis B shots.

And, for some reason they did, I know that they heard me when I made that request, and I think it just was forgotten, honestly. So they put that gel on his eyes.

Lisa: The goop.

Jessica: Yeah, very goopy. So they apologized when I was like, oh, I didn't really want that. And we tried to wipe some of it off.

And it was fine. I get that things happen. One thing I wanted to share was,so it was probably 11:30 or close to midnight around the time that the process of evaluating and stitching my tear was done and Jamie had his sort of evaluation and shots and the footprint or whatever they were doing over on the other side of the room.

Postpartum Experience in Hospital

Jessica: It was approaching, the middle of the night and it was a Sunday and I had eaten during my labor, but not a lot. I had an applesauce packet or two, and I had some oatmeal in the morning, but not anything like a meal. So that was a bummer.

And I would say that was the first indication that my postpartum experience in the hospital was going to be very different than my labor and delivery experience. Yeah. And since going through that, I've learned that a lot of people have a Jekyll and Hyde type of situation in the hospital.

And actually from my conversations with other women, sometimes the great part is the postpartum care part. And sometimes, and for me it was the opposite.

Lisa: Yeah. Why should we have to pick and choose? It's frustrating. Yeah. I wish I had a local birthplace I felt like I could wholeheartedly recommend on both fronts in both of those units.

Jessica: Yeah, so like we ordered food from Gracie's Diner on Second Avenue, which was like an old staple of mine, cause I used to live in the neighborhood, and I was delighted to get the, I don't know if they still call it the Hungry Man breakfast, but that's what I call it in my mind, where it's four scrambled eggs--

Lisa: Huge. Yeah.

Jessica: Four pieces of toast and sausage and bacon and ham. Ham. Why ham? I don't know. But there's ham.

Lisa: Why not?

Jessica: Hashbrowns and hot sauce. and I used to order that meal after I would go out and do like an 18 or 20 mile training run for the marathon. So it was sort of like, oh, this is like a full circle experience.

Lisa: Oh.

Jessica: And maybe the hospital also should've had a hot meal, ready for both me and Don also because he also was not eating and needed nourishment. And, so that was, the beginning of what was a difficult postpartum experience in the hospital, where we just felt that the respect that we had been given up to that point basically just dissolved almost entirely. It was really difficult for me to get a Tylenol. It was difficult for me to get any rest. Just so many wake-ups in the middle of the night. It felt like the night shift nurses needed to just come in so many times just so they could check a box to show that they're working as much as the daytime nurses or something.

And one nurse even came in the middle of the night and did something that was really awful for me. She made me walk down the hall and get on a scale and weigh me. And I had been declining during all my prenatal visits. I had been getting on the scale, but I would turn around so that I couldn't see the number.

I just felt really sensitive about it and didn't really want to know for my own mental health, and my provider understood that by turning around, that's a sign she doesn't wanna know. So she would just write it down and then that's it. This woman, I stepped on the scale and I turned around so I couldn't see the number, and then she said it out loud to me, and I was just so fragile at that point. The hormones that I was experiencing, just had me very emotional to begin with. And I don't even know to this day why she weighed me. No one else I've ever talked to has gone through that experience like 24 hours after giving birth.

I don't think it's medically necessary or indicative of anything.

Lisa: No.

Finding Their Voices

Jessica: So I just went back in my room and sobbed and Don stepped up and started telling the nurses like, no, you can't come in right now. And we just started to find our voice a little bit more, the way that we had, in labor and delivery where we were very clear, we do want this, we don't want that.

We sort of, I think, forgot that that was our right to be able to control who came in and out of our room to an extent. Or at least question why they were doing certain things, and request that they come back later if it wasn't a good time for us. And we also had a couple of the midwives stop by and just check and see how we were doing.

And we shared with them that we weren't having the best time with those postpartum nurses. And similarly, they encouraged us to just say it like it is and ask people to leave if we didn't want them to come in at a certain point. It was nice to get that understanding from those midwives who understood that maybe there wasn't a parity between the two experiences that we had in the hospital.

Breastfeeding Beginnings and Lack of Support

Jessica: We had a hard time getting breastfeeding started. so we requested to see the lactation consultant in the hospital. I think in your class you had encouraged us to request that early and often, and even if it's going well, just have them come. You never know. They might be able to just help make things more comfortable or if there is a problem with the latch, they can really intervene early and getting breastfeeding going early is so important, right? In terms of establishing supply and also feeding the baby who needs nourishment. That also was a bit disappointing. The lactation consultant came into our room, basically read to us from a pamphlet and didn't wanna do anything where I got Jamie in my arms and didn't wanna get her hands dirty, so to speak, with us and like help with position and like checking his latch and all this stuff. It was very like, here's this pamphlet, I'm gonna read it to you and we're all, we're done here.

Good luck honey.

Lisa: Oh, you've gotta be kidding. I'm so sorry. Do you know if that was an IBCLC or not?

Jessica: I don't know. I think we tried to ask and something in me made me think that she was not an IBCLC.

Lisa: It sounds like not to me. Not all hospitals have IBCLCs. They should, and for listeners, if you haven't heard of an IBCLC, that's an international board certified lactation consultant, that's the top level of breastfeeding expert. And all hospitals should have that, but they don't always.

Jessica: Yeah, the way that it was positioned to us was that we were lucky to see anyone, so.

Lisa: No.

Jessica: Just be thankful that someone came to your room. Yeah. Actually the midwife who had been the primary person, who was there during my delivery came and she was able to help far more.

She gave us just 15 minutes, but she helped me try a couple of different positions with Jamie. And she just was really encouraging. 

Lisa: And that's what we need. That's so much of what we need.

Jessica: Yeah, that made a difference. Like I had taken. I believe it's called the Natural Breastfeeding course. Can you remind me the name of the person who teaches that?

Lisa: Yeah. I'll put it in the notes. It's a couple of people. I'm trying to look it up real quick to remind myself actually. Nancy Mohrbacher.

Jessica: Right. Nancy. Yes. Nancy Mohrbacher .

Lisa: There's another person as well, but Nancy's the main one. Yeah.

Lengthy Hospital Stay

Jessica: I had taken that class or it's really watching a series of videos, prior to giving birth. But it's one thing to watch some videos and it's a whole other thing to do it yourself for the first time. And I felt really committed to it. But I knew it wasn't going well by the time we were ready to be discharged from the hospital, which was about 72 hours after giving birth.

Not quite. It was about maybe two and a half days, close to three days. 

Lisa: Oh, that's longer than most, vaginal births. Interesting.

Jessica: Yeah, it was distressingly long. We could not wait to get outta there. Part of it was, Don had decided that he wanted Jamie to be circumcised and they said that they couldn't perform the circumcision, I think until 24 hours after birth and since he was born at night, that sort of forced it to take place on Tuesday.

And then my memory is a little fuzzy here, but maybe they couldn't get anyone to do it on Tuesday, so it had to be on Wednesday. First thing Wednesday morning, so it just felt like there were just all these delays and rules and we were begging to go home. And we were afraid, I don't know if this was true or not, but we were afraid that if we just left on our own, that we might encounter issues with our insurance. We talked about that possibility, but we were a little too afraid to execute on it, because just knowing the bill for something like that, we didn't wanna do anything that might stick us with a five figure bill.

Lisa: Yeah. Absolutely. That's good that you had that awareness 'cause a lot of people wouldn't realize that there might be ramifications with insurance. But I'm sorry that you were there longer than you wanted to be. That's really frustrating.

Jessica: Yeah. 

Lisa: When you're not receiving good support, of course. Especially in all the disruptions and stuff.

Seeking Breastfeeding Support

Jessica: Yeah. At the time of discharge, Jamie had lost about 9% of his body weight, and so I was pretty concerned. So they let us go and they, it's funny, they didn't say anything to us about formula supplementation. I was never encouraged to pump while I was in the hospital, even though I knew I was having some difficulty feeding him.

A pump was not offered to me. I didn't bring my own pump because I was told I wouldn't need one, that the hospital has lots of pumps. So I think that there were probably some missteps in those first few days, and maybe that is the fault of the lactation consultant or the nurses. And I certainly didn't feel like I was in the right frame of mind to be thinking expansively about, okay, I feel like this breastfeeding thing is not going quite as well as I would want. What do I need to do right now to make sure that I'm helping my milk come in, and just doing everything I could.

So luckily one of the best things I think I did for myself in those last few weeks of pregnancy was I had looked into lactation consultants that were in my neighborhood. I had called them and spoken to them on the phone and gotten a feel for how well we might work together and tried to figure out the insurance landscape, although it was very tricky. When I asked my insurance company, a big insurance provider, by the way, United Healthcare, please send me a list of the IBCLCs who are in network, within a, whatever, 5, 10, 15 mile radius. This is in Queens, New York. Like the world's most populous place, or not the world, but like in the United States– there were five. The list was five lactation consultants. One of them was in New Jersey and that was like, that was the universe of in-network providers.

Lisa: And that's more than most insurance plans have with the exception of Aetna. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. So I even called one of them, who was not in New Jersey, she was in Queens. And she said,you know specifically, what kind of insurance do you have? And I told her and she was like, yeah, they say that I'm in network, but none of my clients get reimbursed when they work with me. So I just wanna share that with you upfront.

So anyway, I had mentally set a few thousand dollars because a visit can be 250, 300 plus for just one visit. So just was like, I'm gonna, we'll figure it out, we'll figure that out later. and I made an appointment with a lactation consultant. It was Kara at City Lactation in Queens who turned out to be so wonderful.

Lisa: Yay.

Jessica: I made that appointment with her for the day after we got home from the hospital. I made it while I was still in the hospital because I just had this feeling like I needed real help and I wasn't getting it where I was.

Lisa: Everyone listen to Jessica. This is what I recommend in birth class. As soon as you give birth, schedule that appointment for day three to five because around the time your milk is coming in and or needs to transition, that's when we often start to need more support than maybe we might have needed earlier. 

So listen to Jessica. I'm glad you did that.

Formula and Triple Feeding

Jessica: Yeah, we went to Kara's office, and she weighed Jamie. And he was still losing weight. And, she gave us very clear instructions and it was not easy to take. I definitely cried after that appointment, but she said, you're gonna go to the store right now. You're gonna get formula we didn't have any in our house 'cause I was like, oh, we don't need it. I'm just gonna breastfeed. It might not be easy, but it'll work. And so that was wrong. She was like, you're gonna go to the store and get formula. you need the liquid kind because it's sterile and your baby is four days old, so you're not gonna mess around with powder, and this is also at the time of concerns in the formula market around recalls.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: It doesn't matter what kind, just go out and find anything that you can.

Lisa: Liquid is always recommended for a full-term baby, who's two weeks or less. Either that or donor milk, one of those. 

Jessica: And she got me on a triple feeding regime, which meant that I would try to latch Jamie and get him to nurse. I would pump, and then we would give him a little bit of formula on top of that and, we started using an app to just track everything that was happening so that we had a sense, because part of the process of working with her was any data we could share with her, she was very invested in knowing how things were going, literally hour by hour from one visit to the next. I think we saw her maybe 48 hours after that initial visit, and the intake form was just she was asking a vast amount of questions. Which, in any other circumstance might have felt like a lot, but even just being asked these very granular questions about how many times a day are you pumping?

How long are you pumping for? How many milliliters are you collecting? Or ounces. How long is the baby latching for? Just the whole universe. She just wanted to know the whole universe. I felt so seen and cared for and like I really had someone on my team. And, so it was a really difficult journey.

We did triple feeding probably for about five weeks. And so I couldn't really do anything except concentrate on that process for that entire time. And even like going out and taking Jamie for a walk, right? It was April. There were some nice spring days and the flowers were in bloom.

It was difficult because I was just constantly thinking about the next time that I needed to pump, and my pump only works when it's plugged into the wall. Just felt pretty, stuck and Jamie finally did start gaining weight. And we made our way out of it. Part of the process, that the guidance that Kara gave us was, suggesting not diagnosing, because my understanding is that IBCLCs are not qualified to diagnose oral ties. But.

Lisa: Right. They assess and refer. 

Lip and Tongue Tie Diagnosis

Jessica: Yeah, she referred us to someone, to have a true diagnosis. And so we went to Dr. Fatina at Gramercy Kids Smiles in Manhattan, and she took one look and was like, yep, I see a lip tie. I see a tongue tie. This is probably part of why you're having a difficult time with breastfeeding.

So we had those revisions done by her that same day, that came along with the sort of difficult process of, helping with the healing, which is a misnomer because when you have those sort of tissues cut with the laser, they naturally want to grow back and heal and you as the parent wanna prevent that from happening.

What we had to do, like three to five times a day was to actually put on gloves and just stretch those tissues out. And that was horrible. It was truly horrible. Yeah. And Jamie would scream, and he was such a good baby. He really, he didn't cry or scream ever, except for when we did that and we hated doing something that hurt him, but, we thought maybe it would help overall, and I'll never really know if it did or not.

There was never a moment of dramatic change. Just things just slowly kept getting better. And the bigger and stronger he got, the better his latch was. And it felt like my milk supply took ages to transition, but that felt like that slowly happened too. Maybe by the end of the second week I felt I had a decent supply and started counting in ounces and not milliliters, which felt like a really big deal. And I remember the first time I froze a little extra breast milk. That was such a victorious day for me,the just extra three ounces went in the freezer and I was just so proud of myself.

Lisa: Yay.

Trying a Chiropractor

Jessica: One other thing that we did in the process of breastfeeding was, at Kara's suggestion, we tried working with a chiropractor and I actually had reached out to you, Lisa, cause I saw you had written a Google review of this chiropractor that she had recommended.

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Jessica: And we went for a few visits and we weren't convinced.

I think a lot of people trust and love chiropractic care and we just are not those people. So we, yeah, we decided to just stop with that. We didn't feel like it was really helping and just one more appointment that we had to get to and just,

Lisa: It's a lot.

City Lactation

Jessica: It was a lot. It was a lot. And, oh, I should have mentioned, we also saw Annie Frisbie at City Lactation.

So it was Kara Koehler and Annie Frisbie were both there for us. In fact, even now being eight months postpartum, I met with Cara virtually, about a month ago. Yeah. To discuss, just the process of weaning and what my options were, to take it slowly.

Yeah, and it was like seeing an old friend and, I'll just always be so grateful to the two of them for, being there around a very emotional and difficult topic, like my ability for my body to feed and take care of my baby, where it felt like I was failing and he was failing and we were a failure.

And, what bad things could come from that. It just, it felt so frightening and upsetting to feel unable to care for him in those very first days. And really, like their generosity and care and really love, it felt like they were giving us love by helping show us the way to try to get on track.

And they never once said, this just seems really hard. You should just quit. Or like, why don't you, just consider resorting to formula, there's nothing wrong with formula. And a lot of people make that choice, and I totally respect it. And I have just a newfound respect for anyone who goes on any sort of a breastfeeding journey.

Lisa: And they would support that. If that's what someone wanted, for sure.

Jessica: Of course, yeah. But they just, they let me lead and say, this is really what I want. And they were like, okay, here's what we're gonna do to make it happen the best way that we can. 

Lisa: That just makes my heart sing, hearing that about Annie and Kara. They have supported countless clients of mine, and I may have told you this, but for listeners, Annie is one of my dearest friends. Our daughters are best friends and are going to camp this summer together and vacation together, and she's been one of my dearest friends for like, oh gosh, like 20 years. And so it's such a delight and such a joy to have her, to know that I can trust my clients to her and to Kara who worked with her and for her. So I'm so glad that you had that supportive experience.

Be Held Postpartum Support Group

Jessica: Yeah. Absolutely. The other things I think maybe to share about our postpartum experience, probably through the various social media of the doulas and the doula collective and probably also your social media, I saw that there was a postpartum support group starting, and it was starting right around the time of my due date.

And so–

Lisa: You were part of the very first cohort, I think, right?

Jessica: Oh, was that the, we were the first ones?

Lisa: You were. It's a very special group. I feel like several people on this podcast were in that cohort. It's really cool.

Jessica: Yes. Yes. I've really enjoyed listening to their stories. So I think I emailed someone and said I might not have a baby at the time this group starts, am I still allowed into the club? And they were like, yeah, come on. And it's true. I attended the first meeting, still pregnant.

And then by the time of the second meeting, a week later, I had a baby. So the timing worked out really well. There were two of us in the group of maybe 14 or 15 women, I would say, who had babies I think, right at the beginning of April. So we were the last ones in terms of having the littlest babies.

And it was so helpful for me to get to know these moms who had babies who were a month or two months, or even three or four months older than Jamie. they helped me understand what was coming for us and they would talk about all sorts of issues with absolute frankness and no filter, which is, I think what just,Me personally, that's exactly what I needed at that point because, all the preparation that you do, there's so many things that you really can't know until you're in it. And, having a group of women, first facilitated by some of the doulas who were with us during our births, and then just after the group met for our six sessions on our own, we just dove into some really crucial topics around some of the things you would expect.

Breastfeeding, for example, and feeding in general, but also like relationships with partners and relationships with family. And, those facilitated conversations did such an amazing job of bonding us as a group. And on any given day now, in our WhatsApp group, there are 100 or 200 messages exchanged every single day.

Lisa: Wow. I love it. 

Jessica: It's been, yeah, so it's been about eight or nine months of that kind of connection. And, I've still never met any of them in person and it doesn't even matter. I call them all my friends. And, so it was a huge blessing that I didn't even know was coming my way at the time I signed up.

I just thought, oh yeah, I'll just try this and, if it stinks, then I don't even have to go. Because it's just virtual and it turned out to be so amazing. So I would encourage anyone who has access to something like that to consider it because even, I think people who have a really strong support system around them through family and friends, it helps to have people who are in that exact moment with you to walk shoulder to shoulder with you, while you're going through it. And the going through it part, postpartum is forever, like this journey doesn't end just because the physical toll of pregnancy and birth on our bodies is over, or the hormones have calmed down and we feel emotionally a little bit more like ourselves.

 I really believe postpartum is forever. So I'm glad to have this group of women who will be part of that maybe forever too.

Lisa: Yeah.

Yeah. I'm so thankful and that's our Be Held, we call it Be Held, postpartum support groups. We've continued them ever since that first cohort, and I'm hoping that each cohort has been a really life giving supportive group, similarly to yours. It's just so encouraging to hear and shout out to our doulas who facilitate that because they're just excellent facilitators and listeners and community builders, so I'm glad you found that support.

Jessica: Yep. Truly excellent. 

Postpartum Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Lisa: So is there anything else that you haven't gotten to share that you'd like to share? Or any final insights or tips for people who might be listening? Largely expectant parents.

Jessica: I think, I've shared a lot, and thank you for the opportunity, Lisa. It's been so fun. I think the one thing that I, maybe wish that I had been able to contemplate, during my pregnancy, relates to who I am as someone with an achiever mindset. That's a technical term, if you're familiar,on the Gallup StrengthsFinder, which I'm sure some of your listeners have participated in. The people who identify as achievers, like I do, wake up every day at zero and the day's not a good day if a certain number of tasks don't get accomplished. And so it feels really good actually to have a to-do list and to check those items off the to-do list, whether it's mowing the lawn or doing the laundry or, responding to that email that's gone a little bit too long, needs to be answered, whatever it is.

And workdays are like that, but weekend days are like that too, and I never really understood until I had a baby, like basically on me 24/7, that the inability to check off those boxes in the way that I was used to was gonna be really challenging for me. The things that I would normally want to attend to around the house as a wife and partner, as a daughter, as a worker, as a community member, those tasks, I was just utterly unable to accomplish them and I couldn't let go of the need to to feel that I had accomplished that, nevermind the fact that I was doing like the triple feeding thing and focusing on trying to get my baby to sleep and trying to also take some rest for myself where I could, that–

Lisa: Achieving a lot, even if it doesn't feel that way.

Jessica: It didn't feel like I was doing anything.

It felt like I was just sitting on a couch all day, and that was really hard for me to adjust to. I think I'm still adjusting to it, frankly. I am trying to make peace with the fact that things don't get done on the old timeline anymore, and I just don't have the bandwidth. And, finding some way to be okay with that is still, it's an ongoing process and so maybe that won't resonate with everyone, but, it was–

Lisa: Resonates with me a lot.

Jessica: It was probably the greatest surprise for me, or certainly one of the greatest surprises and,that it had big repercussions in my marriage because I, I wanted my spouse to take over some of those things and he couldn't either because I wasn't the only new parent in the house and I wasn't the only one whose responsibilities had dramatically shifted overnight, his did too. And so it was just a huge adjustment that is an ongoing one. And, maybe as the years go on, maybe the process of parenting and inhabiting this new identity will bring some new perspective to whether or not all those little things really ever need to get done so urgently in the first place.

Like I hope that I can embrace that sort of new place. It might be good for someone like me who runs pretty hard, literally and figuratively. Yeah, that was, That's just something maybe someone can benefit from hearing, 'cause I certainly was caught completely off guard. What do you mean, I'm not gonna have time to vacuum today? Like the floor needs vacuuming. Just little things like that.

Lisa: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that, Jessica. I, yeah, as I said, it resonates for me in a huge way and, in birth class, I do usually say something along the lines of you have to make peace, especially in these early weeks and months, if breastfeeding is a priority for you, that it's gonna feel like the only thing you're checking off the to-do list has been breastfeeding, just about. 

Try to get a shower every day that might do a little bit for your mental health and just feeling human, but you can't get it until you're in it. It's such an experiential thing that we just can't really cognitively absorb prenatally, you know?

And it is a long journey, in many regards. I remember just, the phases of like sleep patterns with little ones and as they grow and being like so excited as the kids got a little bit older, like several years older and were actually sleeping in and not getting up at the crack of dawn, cause I'm not a morning person, that was, a game changer for me. And just to sum all that up, to say that isn't parenting a really great opportunity for personal growth? It is like one of the biggest, it requires you to grow personally in very uncomfortable ways, in very painful ways.

And I, yeah, I'm right there with you with that. Like just always to-do list, to-do list, to-do list and all these things feel so important and really reevaluating that and letting things sit, there's value in that. There's such value in that, and valuing our body's need to rest. There's so much value in that, especially as we start to age, I'm learning. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

Lisa: Thank you so much, Jessica. This has been a treasured time. I have so loved hearing your reflections. You have some really beautiful, deep, important reflections that I know are gonna be so valuable for people who are listening and going on this journey into parenthood. So thanks again.

Jessica: Thank you, Lisa.