Bronx-based Dominican couple, Ana Rosario & Josmar Rojas, share their son’s uncomplicated homebirth story. Ana’s background as a social worker had opened her eyes to the challenges Black/BIPOC folks face giving birth in a hospital setting, so she’d decided previously in her first pregnancy, which unfortunately resulted in loss, to give birth at home. They detail specifics of the holistic, nurturing, very safe care their homebirth midwife provided through their journey of pregnancy loss and then through her 4th pregnancy, labor and birth, and share about the indispensable support their doula also provided. Ana also reflects on some of the very specific cultural, nutritional, and herbal aspects of that support and how those factors contributed to having the kind of healthy, empowering birth she preferred.
Resources:
Memaniye Cinque @dyekorasumdamidwifery, homebirth midwife & student midwife, Barbara
Erica Pinilla, birth doula with East River Doula Collective
The Check-In Collective - @thecheckincollective (Instagram) - BIPOC Clinicians offering Free/Donation Based Mental Health Support to BIPOC folks doing Movement Work
The Business of Being Born documentary*
JR Fitness & Boxing - Josmar Rojas personal training - On IG as @jrfitnessandboxing
The Birth Partner by Penny Simkin*
Sponsor links:
Episode Topics:
Hire homebirth midwife in 1st pregnancy, pregnancy loss around 12 weeks
Subsequent miscarriages, but didn’t contact midwife
Contact midwife around end of first trimester of 4th pregnancy
Hire doula about a month before due date
Water breaks at 39 weeks 1 day 1:30 or 2am, went to bed
6am - contractions start mildly
10am - stronger contractions
6pm - midwife says baby is coming soon
Pushing takes 20 min
Dominican background - healer in family, maternal lineage all had natural births, having pictures of them around her for labor
Wonderful follow-up postpartum care
Josmar’s reflections as a father
Build in support, maybe don’t tell everyone if you’re having a homebirth
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome to Ana and Josmar. I'm so glad to have you on the Birth Matters podcast.
Josmar: Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Ana: Hi, guys. Thank you.
Lisa: Can't wait to hear your birth story, but first, can you please share with us just a little bit about yourselves? How long ago you gave birth, maybe the area you live in, maybe what you do for a living if you'd like to share that.
Ana: Okay. So my name is Ana Rosario and I am a clinical social worker. I'm from the Bronx and I gave birth on May 31st. So it's about to be three months.
Josmar: My name is Josmar Rojas. I'm a personal trainer from the Bronx as well. And like she said, we had a baby on May 31st, 2021.
Lisa: And we're recording this in August. So you're just right exiting that fourth trimester. Yeah?
Ana: Yes.
Josmar: Yes.
Lisa: Does it feel at all like you're sort of coming out of the clouds a little bit?
Josmar: Oh, yes definitely.
Ana: It feels like yesterday the baby slept through the night, so we feel so good. It feels like we're going to make it!
Josmar: Yeah,like
Ana: Three days.
Josmar: Yeah. A few days, actually, a little more than three, I would say, where he's sleeping about 10 hours, 10 plus hours from nighttime to the morning.
Ana: It wasn't always like that.
Josmar: At all.
Lisa: Right.
Josmar: At all. Yeah, those first two months is really bad.
Ana: It's difficult.
Lisa: It's intense, exhausting.
Ana: But everyone's told us, "It's just a phase. It'll be over." And we're like, we don't see the end to this.
Lisa: Right. It doesn't feel temporary when you're up all around the clock.
Ana: Right, right.
Josmar: The sleepless nights, that's something. But like they say, it does go by, you know, and now I feel energetic right now this day. I have some energy. Before I was really dragging, but getting better, getting better.
Lisa: Good. I'm glad to hear that. Well, so would you like to start out by just sharing with us a little bit about your pregnancy journey and were there anything to know just in terms of how that played out, how your health played out in your pregnancy, how you chose your birth team and your birth location, any of that that you'd like to share?
Ana: So Josmar and I actually have been trying to have a baby for some time. And unfortunately we had a few losses prior to this baby. So when I was pregnant before I had already done a little bit of research about what kind of pregnancy I wanted to have, where I wanted to deliver.
So I actually spoke to some of the folks that we know who have babies about their experience. We knew some folks that had hospital births. We knew a couple that did a home birth. So we have spoken to our community basically as far as like how birthing was for them. And so we were really intrigued by homebirth.
So we spoke to our friend who did one and she recommended documentaries. I can't remember the name of the documentary now, it's a Ricki Lake documentary. I think it's like The Price of Birth or something.
Lisa: The Business of Being Born, I bet.
Ana: Yeah, The Business of Being Born. So she told us to watch that, so we watched that and we were very intrigued. We really wanted to do a homebirth after watching the movie and speaking to our friend. And so when we first became pregnant, we asked our friend if they knew a midwife that they recommended and she recommended Memaniye, who ended up being my midwife.
So I did end up having a home birth with Memaniye, and she also had a student midwife with her, her name was Barbara. They were both amazing. Fantastic. Honestly, couldn't have asked for better people to deliver my baby, to walk with us through this whole pregnancy journey. And then when we took your class, we really decided on getting a doula and we met Erica and she was awesome, amazing as well. She was pretty much like my right hand through the whole birth. She was so helpful. I'm so glad that you connected us. So, yeah, so I had spoken to Erica. When you connected us, we clicked over the phone and I was like, "Okay, I definitely want her to be my doula." And so she was also part of my birth team.
Lisa: And with Memaniye, was she the first one you interviewed or did you meet with more than one?
Ana: She was the first person I met when we had our first pregnancy and I automatically hit it off. I walked into her space and I'm like, "Wow, this looks like our home." I felt instantly connected to her. And so she was there monitoring my first birth and I actually lost that baby.
So when we became pregnant again, we had a total of three miscarriages. So the second miscarriage, I was like, "I'm just going to wait a little longer before I connect with anyone." Because I thought, you know, who knows what's going to happen. And so we lost that, but with this pregnancy, we contacted her right away. So we already knew we were set on Memaniye. We really connected with her. She was amazing and it proves to be true throughout this whole process.
Josmar: They were really attentive when we went to the visits and stuff like that. "How are you doing? How's things at home?" You know, just checking that her pregnancy was going well and things around her were in order so that the baby could grow, you know, that way.
Ana: I think that what's most important is that it didn't feel rushed. It felt like it was part of like she was welcoming me into her family. And I, you know, we welcomed her into our family. We consider them family.
Lisa: Yes.
Ana: You know, it's hard because it was during COVID times. I know that when I initially became pregnant, she said, we meet for an hour. And then you meet with also another group of moms who are giving birth around your same time. We also have that, we have groups after. So we couldn't have the groups...
Lisa: Oh you couldnt? Yeah, that makes sense.
Ana: This time, because you know, COVID happened, but she still would meet with us for an entire hour, really got to know us, right? I've worked in hospitals before, because I'm a social worker. I see how like, patients feel rushed. They don't feel listened to, they don't feel the provider really cares. There's a lot of things that the hospitals don't necessarily do that when you're in such an intimate setting with a midwife, it feels like a real connection. And I wanted that for the birth of my son or the birth of my daughter or whoever. You know, when I was pregnant, I was like, I want it to be something special. I want someone to know how important this is for me, you know?
Lisa: Yes, absolutely. I mean, who doesn't want that, but I think so many people don't realize the difference in that care, that specific difference. In hospital environments, it's not even the care providers fault. It's an unfortunate by-product of our healthcare system is that they have to cram as many patients as they can in just to have a viable business and make enough money to make ends meet and everything.
Josmar: That's the problem, looking it as a business instead of,
Lisa: The business of being born, right?
Josmar: You're looking at it as a business when it's actually just nature taking its course, pretty much.
Lisa: Yes.
Ana: I just feel like everything aligned for me to actually have a homebirth. Before the job that I have now, I did quality management for maternity measures in New York City Hospital. So I got to see firsthand things that the hospitals were doing that really didn't help moms give birth. And so part of my job was implementing things that would work like best practices and aim to also decrease maternal deaths around black women, who often are seen, they have tolerance for pain and they get hemorrhaging and a lot of issues. Now, I feel like the hospitals, because they see that some of the practices are not the best practices, are trying to make the changes and have folks like me go in there and be a sounding board and do some research, but things still haven't been really implemented as far as best practices. Knowing that also, having that position and learning more deeply about the care in New York City hospitals, I was like, I'm definitely going to have a home birth. Yeah.
Lisa: That's great. I'm so glad you had that professional background so that you had so much more insider knowledge about the challenges, especially that Black women and other people of color, too, face in these birthing places. And that really informed your choice, it sounds like.
Ana: Right, yeah.
Lisa: I also, I just wanted to pause to say, or not pause, but I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry for your losses. I wanted to also ask along those lines, at what point did you get in touch with Memaniye and then how soon after that first time did you experience the loss and had you already established a relationship enough with her for her to be some kind of support in that? () Sorry, that that was several questions wrapped into one.
Ana: So the first time that we became pregnant and the second time we lost the baby almost approaching the 12 weeks. I know that after the 12 weeks or something there's less of a risk, but right when we had told our family and we thought everything was going to be okay, it happened. So the first pregnancy, yes, Memaniye was a support, you know, she provided resources where if like, I needed to talk to anyone. But, you know, I am a clinical social worker so I also knew who to reach out to. And like, not that it wasn't still difficult, but I just had an array of resources.
And then the second pregnancy, I was a little bit, not as excited as the first, because I was already now there's anxiety surrounding the fact that we might have a miscarriage and I didn't reach out to Memaniye right away. I don't think she knew about that pregnancy at all, because I told myself I'm just going to wait 'til 12 weeks.
I kind of already know what to do for prenatal care based on my first pregnancy and I just didn't want it-- it was, I was in a weird place where it was like, there was a lot of anxiety surrounding that pregnancy. And so we had that loss. And then the third loss, I just happened to take a pregnancy test. I was pregnant and like the next week, I think I got my period, so.
It looks like maybe five weeks. I don't know. We never really began care because that was very short. And so this pregnancy, it's funny what happens. After that I had given myself some time, even years, to try to recover from the fact that we had these miscarriages.
Josmar: Yeah. The first one happened 2018 and then May 2018. Then by the end of 2018 was the second one. I don't remember when the third one was, but she definitely, yeah. So after the second one, she decided she's going to wait like about a year before we even tried anything.
Ana: And then I think it came on some, whatever happened, happened, we were so ready to be the single couple that travels. And that's like maybe just not in the cards for us. And it's okay. I just coped with the fact that it might not happen. And that's when it happened. That's when we got pregnant with Nasir. And then I did contact Memaniye, I think, like a month in or two months in. Yeah because it takes about a month for you to actually get a positive test. And we waited a few weeks and then we contacted her.
Josmar: All I remember is you giving the pregnancy test. I'm like, "Oh what? It's happening? Okay."
Ana: Yeah. I surprised him before I went to work. I just left it on the coffee table.
Lisa: Oh, my goodness. Wow. And then you hired Erica, your doula, I think toward the end of the pregnancy, yes? Maybe about a month before your due date or so?
Ana: Yeah, right. Yeah. We just moved into a home and we were in the middle of repairs. She dealt with assisting me in the midst of a home that's in construction. You know, when we were having our class, we were having it in our bedroom cause that's the only place that didn't have a mess. So yeah, so we were in the middle of construction and money is tight. So we were like, oh, I don't know if we should invest in a doula or not. Can we afford it? Do we really need it?
You know, we really didn't know much. And so we took the birth class and we're like, "Oh yeah, I think we definitely need someone to be there to guide me and remind me of all these things."
Lisa: I really sell you on it, right? That extra support is golden.
Ana: Oh my God, it was. I said that the other day, too. If Erica wasn't there, I don't know what would have happened. I would have felt, I don't, honestly I just don't know. you really need a doula if anyone is contemplating it. It's a must. It's a must.
Josmar: I compare it to personal trainers, I'm a personal trainer, so you could definitely get help from somebody or do it yourself. But when you have somebody, a professional who could really guide you through things it's A+. And that's exactly what happened with a doula. I was thinking, "Oh yeah, I could help. I could help my wife through this thing." But she really knew what to do and how to do it and when to do it. Yeah. I wasn't allowed to touch.
Ana: Josmar tried to give me a massage and it just felt so wrong and I'm like, "No, no, no! Don't touch me!" And Erica knew exactly what to do. She was amazing. I honestly wouldn't have done it without her.
Lisa: Great. Well, yeah, we'll get into some of those details shortly. I remember that she was really eager to work with the two of you or the three of you, I should say, because, especially because I think you were her first home birth to attend as a doula. So she was really excited to get to work with you in that setting in particular.
Well, is there anything else about your pregnancy that you wanted to go over before you go into the birth story?
Ana: I dunno. I think we had a pretty normal pregnancy. I was working a lot. I was working a lot, and I work in a stressful environment. So my blood pressure will be high here and there, but everything was fine.
I know Memaniye would tell me that if my blood pressure did not go down, that I will have to then have a birth in the hospital. You have to have a normal pregnancy, pretty much, to have a home birth, you know. There's more risk if you have diabetes and if you have high blood pressure. So we were battling those two for some time, but towards the end, I was in good health. I took some of the suggestions Memaniye gave me and it worked like a charm, a lot of holistic things.
Lisa: I was going to ask. Were there specific things that you would like to share that she-- tips?
Ana: She told me about, "These are the leaves you need to get and make these teas." So like the nettle leaves, the raspberries, alfalfa, you know, those kinds of things. So she's telling me, you know, keep that throughout your pregnancy. But when my blood pressure was high or my feet were swollen she recommended magnesium. There were some other herbs I can think about, marshmallow root, a lot of herbs that we can use, and teas that can help that.
She also suggested that I eat more protein because I'm a vegetarian. So I was eating a lot of carbs and that was spiking up my sugar, adjusting my diet and I did that and it worked yeah. It was amazing because I really liked the holistic, you know.
Josmar: Yeah, yeah. Like she says, she's a vegetarian and it surprised us how fast things change when she introduced a little bit of meat into her diet. She don't really like eating it and, you know, I feel a little bad for her because she had to change the diet or whatnot. But once that was introduced, it actually made a big difference. And fast, too. We were really surprised.
Ana: Just to be clear, she said protein, right? So you can get protein from like vegetables and stuff like that. But again, we're in the midst of a home construction. We did not have a kitchen the whole time I was pregnant. So like you have to either cook somewhere else or like get food from my relatives, cook there, or just order in, which is what we did most of the time. And so just the options of really being able to have my regular meals where I cook and get protein from vegetables was very difficult.
So at this point, it's like, all right, I'm going to have a baby like in a month and a half. It's going to be hard for me to maintain. So I, you know, she said, you know, another option is that you can go back to meat for a little bit. And so I did that and it did work when I was eating more protein.
Lisa: That's great. It's amazing how much that protein can make a difference. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. And I also just want to point out for listeners who might or might not be aware of this, that midwives tend to have a lot more of that holistic and nutritional background that can make a huge difference. I mean, food is medicine and herbs are medicine and most hospital care providers just don't have that training or expertise. And so they might give just very broad recommendations, but I love the specificity of what Memaniye was giving you. Yeah. And so customized, too. That's great.
Ana: Yes. Yes. So she's like a bowl of knowledge. They already knew off the bat. She's telling her student midwife, you know, "Her feet are swollen. What would you recommend?" Like testing her and she's like, "Magnesium." I was like, they already have their own little knowledge, you know, that they pass around.
Lisa: Oh, I'm so glad you shared that. Thank you. Anything else about the pregnancy before you go into wherever you want to start in your birth story?
Ana: No, I think we can start.
Lisa: Yeah, if you want to start sort of just at the end of your pregnancy, wherever you want to start, it can start with as soon as labor started or whatever.
Ana: Okay. Actually, I should say that before my water broke, that week I had gone to Ikea with my sister. We were going to get some stuff for the baby. We're just shopping. Ikea, you know, you have to walk a lot. You walk through the whole store. I think I walked for like three hours. And that was about a week before my due date.
Josmar: No, the day before. Oh, a week before the due date.
Ana: So that day I went, I walked a lot, like three hours. I'm like, yeah, I can do it. Like, I'm super energized. Josmar and I met in a salsa dance class and we're salsa dancers. So in my baby shower I was dancing salsa, which was like two weeks before my due date. Dancing salsa, super active. So like walking, whatever. But I think that that's what did it. I had to walk so much that day. I got home a little late, like, I just had to walk a lot.
Josmar: And that was the day before the water broke. She went to Ikea the day before the water broke.
Ana: Like I could think I got home like at 9:00 PM and then like a 2:00 AM I tell Josmar like, "Oh my God, I feel like water's gonna gush down." And I literally rolled off the couch because I didn't want to wet the couch. And as soon as I get up to try to go to the bathroom, there it is.
Josmar: It's funny because after we took your class you specified that the water doesn't actually break like in the movies, but this was pretty close.
Lisa: Yeah. That it's only 20% of the time. You probably weren't expecting it because one in five people have that happen as their first sign.
Josmar: Exactly. I didn't think it was going to be us. And then when it happened, I was like, oh, it actually does happen sometimes. It was kind of funny that way.
Lisa: And I'm glad it, well, I don't know how to frame this, but I'm glad you were working with a home birth midwife with your water breaking as the first sign. I don't, I don't know yet. You're about to share with us how long your labor was, but you're just going to be given a lot more time in that birth setting with that kind of practitioner than you might have been given in the hospital.
Ana: Right, right. Cause Memaniye said, "As soon as your water breaks or you feel something, you call me." What is? I can't think about the other thing. There's some other thing that's like, tells you that labor is coming.
Lisa: There's a bunch of things. So I'm not sure.
Ana: We learned it in your class too.
Lisa: You mean abor is starting? That the contractions are starting?
Ana: It's that blood--
Lisa: Bloody show?
Ana: Bloody show, yeah. I'm looking for these things because she said, "As soon as you see these signs you call me." And so we called her right away and she said, "Get some sleep, get some rest, call me when you're having contractions." And so then I called her when I was having contractions, which was around 6 am. So like four hours later, oh no, sorry. It was 10:00 AM, it was six hours. 10:00 AM when I got the first contraction and they were 10 minutes apart. And so I called her and she said, "All right, call me, when they're about like three to five minutes apart." And, and that's when I did. And I had called Erica around that time too. And so they all came around 3:00 PM and I had the baby around 7, at 7:05.
Yeah. So I think in the beginning contractions were okay. You get to rest for a little bit. So then you feel okay, then all of a sudden you get pain again, and then you get to rest. So that wasn't bad. I think towards the end, it was a little difficult, the rest in between the contractions.
But I think having Erica there really helped me to tolerate the contractions. I think something that really helped, I swear by this. And I was just telling my friend who's pregnant. She didn't know this either that we learned in your class, that contractions are really just a minute. It's hyped up. You know, they show you and women are in pain, pain, pain, pain, and it's like, you're in pain for a minute.
And then you get some rest, and then you're in pain again, you know, or you feel the contractions. Some people don't feel that intense pain. I felt like I did, but there is this rest and, you know, Erica will count them down with me. So when I felt like, "Oh, my God, this is a lot." She'll be like, "You have 20 seconds left."
I'm like, "Oh, okay!" And then I was yelling through my whole contractions. That was what helped me, really yelling, not yelling, like screaming the pain down and like, thinking that the baby's coming down with the contraction and Erica did it with me. So I felt comfortable. Like, I didn't feel so silly because she's basically like, "Yeah, do that and I'm going to do it with you." And then she would count them for me, which was so helpful. So I knew it was going to be over soon and I could rest. At some point I was sleeping through the contractions and the contractions do wake me up. And as soon as I'm done, you know, screaming and yelling with Erica, I fall right asleep like instantaneously, and then the contractions wake me up again.
Lisa: Isn't that wild? How sometimes you can just conk out and grab these little bitty catnaps in between. You said some of the times but I think I didn't quite get it solidly in my brain. Apologies. So you, you said your water broke 6:00 AM?
Josmar: From what I remember, the water broke around 1:30-2 AM, something like that. We went to bed like at 6:00 AM or so, that's when she started getting some contractions.
Lisa: Oh, that's okay. Got it.
Josmar: But then at 10:00 AM is when things started getting more serious as far as contractions and the time.
Lisa: I'm glad they were able to go back to sleep because so many people get so excited if their water breaks or the contractions start that it's really hard to go back to sleep. But that's so wise to do that.
Josmar: Well, again, thanks to your class. We know the things that happen and like--
Ana: And then Memaniye was chill, too. She's like, "Alright, okay, go to sleep."
Lisa: I'm sure she told you to go to sleep.
Josmar: She actually came. She looked at Ana, okay, let the end up in the bedroom, bathroom, because Anna was going back and forth. She was laboring in both-- go to the bathroom, sit down, yell, get back up. Go to the bedroom. So, but when Memaniye came, she came downstairs, chill in the living room or the pool while Anna was doing what she needed to do upstairs. And then six something, seven something. She started, she went upstairs and she checked and she was like, "Okay, he's coming soon."
Ana: She came upstairs a few times; she wanted to check and she also told me ways that I can breathe the baby down. Like she gave suggestions, I actually don't know. But she was here even though it wasn't time, she was just downstairs, just not far away at all. And there was one time that I was like, I think I'm ready. She was like, "I don't think you're ready. I'm gonna, you know, you're still talking," I guess, she was thinking you're talking through your contractions, like--
Lisa: The sound of your voice doesn't sound ready.
Ana: She said, "I'm not going to check just now." Then like around six, I was like, you know, I didn't even call for it. She actually just came up. I guess she was like listening to me. She was, because there were times that she would listen to me. You know, she would go upstairs and be like, "You gotta hum deeper. You gotta, you know, yell, but deep, deep down," and like gave me some suggestions as well.
But she knew. She knew when I was ready and she went to check, I was ready for birth. They got the olive oil, we're going to do this. And like,
Josmar: About a half hour after she went upstairs the baby came. She was like, "Okay, he's coming," Uh, and he's -- give me a second.
Lisa: Sure. Go attend to baby for sure.
I was wondering if there were specific ways before Erica and Memaniye came over, were there any things that, that Josmar did for labor support? I was just thinking about his background as a personal trainer. And did that come into play in terms of the way he was supporting you?
Ana: Yes. He actually had one pregnant client before, before-- yeah, more than one, okay. And so, but there was, I remember this client who had a baby who he trained was telling me that, you know, him training her really helped her. She pushed maybe like three times and the baby came. And she thinks it's because she had been working out.
So when we were pregnant, it was the same. I kind of know what to do to work out, but Josmar would be like, "No, you don't do this. You have to take it easy here. And we already did this too much." So he trained me while I was pregnant. So that was very helpful. And also giving me the confidence that I have, you know, the strengths to do this. Like all women do, it's all natural.
Lisa: To have that verbal encouragement is huge. Yeah. Those reminders when we forget can be great. Yeah, someone else whose partner was a personal trainer also shared similarly that his training her in pregnancy really built up some ab strength so that when it came time for pushing, it was much shorter than the average length of pushing stage. And she really attributed it to that training.
Ana: Right, right.
Lisa: Yeah. That's great. Nice.
Ana: I think I must have pushed maybe 20 minutes.
Lisa: That's phenomenal. Yeah, definitely shorter than average for when it's your first time to give birth. Nice. And do you mind my asking what position you gave birth in?
Ana: I was in like on all floors in the bathroom. So, yes, it was either that I was either going to squat. Initially we wanted to have a water birth, but the baby didn't come at the time planned and we still hadn't gotten the pool or anything. So we just ended up laboring in our bed, but I was on all floors. So yeah, I never would have thought that I would have given birth that way, but it worked. It worked and it was good.
Lisa: Yeah, we're starting to have more and more research coming out that giving birth on all fours tends to be, as long as it feels instinctive to the person who's in labor, tends to be a position that leads to less pelvic floor injury or tearing. So I'm glad that felt really instinctive for you.
Yeah. Nice.
Ana: It was comfortable; I could not imagine sitting down. Even when I was having a contraction and would go from bathroom, I mean, I would only sit down if I was in the bathroom, right. And I learned that from your class too, about how we have the natural inclination to like push when you were there. So I went and tried it and that's the only thing that really made me feel good.
Like getting on the actual toilet. I couldn't sit on the bed or the ball. It was just sitting on the toilet. So like, I really just labored a lot on the toilet. Sometimes I would get tired of sitting down and like get up and try to go to bed, but I would last maybe a minute in the room and then I'd be like, "Okay, all right, let's go back to the bathroom."
Lisa: It's also kind of that little labor cave, but like the smaller room, you know, something about, it feels like that very mammalian let's go hide in this place.
Ana: That's exactly. And Erica set the mood. Oh my God, that was so helpful. She came, she'd bring me like apple juice. And she brought some candles and the oil. So it smelled good. And like, it was a vibe. Like, it just felt like, I mean, at that point you don't care about anything.
Lisa: Right?
Ana: I didn't want it. I didn't want brightness. I wanted to, you know, it was like if she lit up a candle and you were there and it was like intimate and cozy, so that felt good.
Lisa: So it sounded like she was there for some period of time before Memaniye came and joined you?
Ana: Oh yes. She was there, maybe she came at 3:30 and I gave birth at seven and Memaniye, she said she came in maybe like around four, but Erica was with me the whole time. So like the doula stays with you until you're ready.
And then the midwife comes when you're ready, you know.
Lisa: And her assistant came at the same time or later?
Ana: Yeah, she came at the same time.
Lisa: Okay. Any more details about that labor support or reflections on the moments of meeting your son?
Ana: I mean, I, oh, wow. It's just, wow. Another thing that I think I emailed you that I wanted that poem that you shared in the class because it was so good. I really resonated with that. Like I, I felt I, till this day think about it. I felt like there was this, that, that happened. Like the old me going through that pain. Then when the baby was born, it was just like such a high. And I felt like such a different person.
And I had to surrender to the pain, right? Like there were times that I was just like, "All right. The hospital's not that far. Maybe I can just go get the epidural. And I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't even get up to go to the next room. Like, what am I thinking?" I'm like, "Ana, you just have to go through it. You just have to go through it."
"Remember that, you know, your ancestors, folks in your family have gone through this, other women have done it. You're strong enough, you can do it." I really had to like give myself this talk and, you know, there were times that I threw up, right. Because like I was feeling a lot of intense things. I just felt like I was purging the old me.
And then the minute I surrendered is the minute that the baby decided to come, it was like, so funny, just like the poem. The minute I surrendered to the pain, like it is what it is; you have to get through this. I felt like I pushed harder. You know, like when I screamed through the contraction. And next thing you know, I was ready.
It wasn't even painful at all when the baby came, you know. When the baby was, actually like coming out, it wasn't painful.
Lisa: Wow.
Ana: You know, you would think that that's where like the pain lies. It burns, but it wasn't painful at all. The contractions, they are the thing that makes it a little difficult.
So I feel like having the support really helps. Having Erica really made me feel, I mean, she did everything amazing, right? Gave me the confidence and like really told me you'll get through it. You know, lastly, I have to tune into myself and like, I can get through this and then I did it. Yeah,
Lisa: That's so beautiful; I love it. And one thing you said that I just so admire as I've been really intentionally listening more to stories from Black folks and other people of color. Just, I love this calling on your ancestors. There's such wisdom there and beauty there and strength there that I, as a white person, I've never, I don't know. I never really thought about that before. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's so great. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that.
Before we hit record you mentioned this, but you and Josmar, your family place of origin is Dominican Republic, yes?
Ana: Yes. Yeah, right.
Lisa: And were there any other cultural things that you incorporated into your pregnancy or labor or birth or parenting that you haven't shared with us?
Ana: Yeah. I mean, I we're both from the Dominican Republic; we were both born there. My grandmother was the healer in town. So she used to use a lot of herbs and stuff to heal. I think that informed me and like wanting something more holistic, trusting herbs and more holistic medicine.
And then I put down my family history, right, of folks who, even my mom who had natural birth and they did it. And so I actually had pictures of my grandma and a person also that took care of me when I was young who had a natural birth. I had that in the room almost like a reminder.
Folks did this before and it runs in my family and that we can do it. We have the strength. So a lot of it was me thinking about channeling the strength of my ancestors and, you know, and that helped. And it's funny because I told Josmar, you know, like from your class, I learned about having a good setup.
So I was like, oh, I'm going to have the pictures of the ancestors. I'm going to have some candles. I'm going to have some affirmations, I'm going to bring some incense like.
But, you know, the baby came so early that I couldn't do that, but I had, you know, I told Josmar like, can you move the pictures and bring them to the room? At least I had that.
Lisa: Ah, I just got like multiple waves of chills. As you were sharing about your family and having their pictures. That's awesome.
Well, so is there anything else that you wanted to share with us that you haven't gotten to share along the lines of your labor, birth, parenting?
Ana: Well, Josmar wants me to share that we were having construction done on the day that I was laboring.
Lisa: No way.
Ana: And at some point I was like, "They have to go, like he has to go,"
Lisa: Send them away! Because it was there like loud hammering and stuff?
Ana: Yeah. All that. Oh no, I know we're finishing the baby's room, the closet, it was hard. It was a lot of things going on. I'm pregnant, I'm starting new job. I'm like an assistant director of this housing program. So I was working long hours and attending to emergencies. And then at the same time, having construction at home, not having a kitchen, you know, while I was pregnant, it was a lot of new changes.
And now it's good that, you know, the home is pretty much almost done and we're getting into a routine with the baby. It feels like we're making it. I told Josmar, "We're making it, babe! Like we're doing it."
Lisa: Oh, that's great. Oh, I did want to ask you. Is there anything you wanted to share about your midwife's follow-up care after birth? Because that's so different from when someone gives birth in a hospital.
Ana: Oh my God. So she came the next day to check in and then I think she came two days after that. I think within the week that the baby was first born within the two weeks, I think I saw her four times and then it was every other week, then it was like maybe six weeks.
And so she can check my wound. So we had a few follow-up visits. In the beginning, it was very frequent. And then maybe after like two weeks, it was like every other week or every week. Yeah. I last appointment was like a month ago. Yeah.
Lisa: I just love that model of care so much because it's really what everyone needs and deserves. And yet that's not what we get in the hospital. They say "Bye," you know, two days after birth, and then they say, "See you in six weeks." And I mean, the baby of course is supposed to go to the pediatrician way before that multiple times. But us, like we matter, too!
Ana: Yeah, I have to say that she did come a few times, but she will call me a lot to check in, to see how I was doing, to see how the breastfeeding journey was going, to see if the baby has seen a pediatrician, just like a lot of follow up. If I had any questions, it just, it felt like family, she really just became family. It felt like I was just talking to-- it's weird because like I worked in the hospitals, you know, there's a boundary that has to be set.
It was still very much like not robotic. Not like I have to do this because I'm told to do this, you know, it was genuine care, I feel.
Oh, that's so great.
Lisa: And I must admit I'm very distracted at the moment for listeners who can't see right now, I'm seeing a precious little guy.
Hi, Nasir. Good to meet you. So precious; oh my goodness. Thank you so much. I'm so honored to meet him and I hope I can meet him in person at some point.
Ana: Yeah.
Lisa: Oh my goodness. And Josmar, I just wanted to ask you if you had any reflections on this experience, this transformation into fatherhood.
Josmar: Uh, the moment pushed him out. I just had this wave of just proud of her. Like, I feel so proud of her. I was like, "Yo, you amazing." That's the way I was thinking, like, "You're amazing."
You did this, you pushed the baby out and everything, how we wanted, how you wanted it specifically. And then as a father now it's just every day, you love him more and more. Like at first it's like, "Yeah, he's here." I know they, they always talk about this way that when parents see him, that's when it hits them all.
Like, "I'm a father now," but I didn't feel that way. I was just like, "Oh, I'm a father." And then the more I'm with him is that I'm loving more and more and more.
Lisa: That gradual bonding and growing. Yeah.
Josmar: That's my little guy, man.
Ana: Amazing. Josmar really held it down, because I think the first two weeks were really hard on me.
And Josmar really was like super attentive on top of everything with the baby. Like, so in love, caring for me at the same time. Yeah, he was amazing. You know, I'm thinking about all the women that kind of do it alone. Because it was stressful as it is having a partner. I can only imagine.
And I think one thing I would tell moms is definitely have help. I was doing this natural birth, homebirth. But we really didn't tell a lot of people because I had read and I do believe this to be true too, that folks would tell you, like, you know, it's scary. Their anxieties will add onto yours.
And I didn't need that. And I had already known better just because of the line of work that I did and the things I've learned. That other people just don't have that experience. Right. So I feel like my mom would have been, she was already, when I told her that I did it, she was still like, "What?!" So nervous, right. And so like, it would having all these nervous energies, like it's just going to be difficult.
It will start getting to you, right. I told a friend of mine during my initial, my first pregnancy that I wanted to have a home birth, but she's like, "I love you, but you can't do that. You can't do that. Like when I had my baby, it was so painful. I wanted the epidural. It's too much. Trust me. I love you, but you won't be able to do it."
That's what my best friend actually told me. And I know she's doing it out of concern because she had needed to give birth in the hospital. And she had gone through it, but I also thought like, okay, there's women that feel that they can do it. They need to go to the hospital. But then there's other folks like everyone in my family did this, so it is possible.
But listening to her, I'm like, "Oh, maybe I can't do this." And it put some doubt. I had to be very strategic about who I shared this with. Are they going to be supportive or are they going to be another person that adds anxiety, you know?
Lisa: One thing that just popped into my head as you were sharing that your best friend said that to you is just that often our best friend we're friends, because we're very complimentary and we're very different in our personalities. Not always, but I have found that that's often the case in our closest friendships. And so it's very likely that her experience was going to be very different and preferences too, was going to be very different from yours. For whatever reason, that was kind of just what popped into my head as you were sharing that.
Ana: Right. And I did tell two of my friends-- then I gauged who would be into this, and who would be supportive. And they were so supportive, you know, they were like, "That's amazing that you're gonna do that. Very supportive, telling me positive things that they had heard of other people who had homebirths.
Lisa: Oh good.
Ana: What you want to hear. Like you need that kind of affirmation. I read Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. I didn't read the whole book, but in the beginning of the book, it was stories about women who were having positive experience giving birth. And, and they talk about that, like about how, if you constantly hear the negatives and like, you can't do this, you won't be able to do it.
But naturally, historically we have always been able to. So why now we can't? It doesn't make sense. And so hearing actual stories of folks who have done it, you don't hear that much, right? At least I haven't. What's amazing to me was like, "Okay, I could do this." Yeah. It makes sense.
Lisa: Yeah. So good. Well, thank you so much. It has been lovely hearing your story and meeting your little one, just precious.
Ana: Thank you. Thank you for all your help. I really couldn't have done it also without all the knowledge that I got from your class.
Lisa: Any small part I might've played, I'm grateful to have been part of that journey and just am in awe of you. So I'm celebrating that with you. Thanks so much. Have a great day.