Today we share another double birth story shared by a dear friend of mine, singer-musician Linnea. Linnea first shares her first baby’s birth story, which was a hospital induction with doula support attended by midwives. She details how her firstborn seemed to have a good latch but ended up being dehydrated because she was doing non-nutritive sucking, and how the support of a lactation consultant made all the difference in help resolving the issue to preserve not only her daughter’s health but also Linnea’s milk supply and, ultimately, their breastfeeding relationship. Due to some dissatisfaction with her experience in the hospital, Linnea subsequently makes distinctly different choices the second time around and chooses to give birth at home. Just need to give a quick content alert: following the second birth story, there’s a potentially stressful component for listeners as Linnea shares how her 3-day-old suddenly stopped breathing and details doing mouth-to-mouth as they book it to the ER. Linnea miraculously saves her son’s life and has an inspiring story to share about trusting your parental instincts. As always, please curate for yourself which stories you think will build your peace and confidence and consider not tuning in if you think it might be triggering or anxiety-producing.

Resources:

Kristen Leonard, homebirth midwife at BK Midwifery
Episode 19 (more details on posterior position in the end teaching notes at 50:52)
Sponsor: Birth Matters Online/On-Demand Course

Episode Topics:

1st pregnancy/birth story

Doing lots of research in pregnancy
Missing her mom, who had passed away from cancer
She encouraged her to thoroughly prep for giving birth
Wanted a doula
Lots of nausea in pregnancy
Not loving the OB she initially was working with
About 6 months in, switched to midwifery group
Midwifery of Manhattan - Sylvie Blaustein
Toward end of pregnancy, blood pressure climbed -- white coat syndrome (because BP was fine at home)
Midwives recommend hypnobirthing -- classes were full but did a private session
Practicing those techniques regularly was key
Visualization very helpful
Learning helpful abdominal techniques for pushing in prenatal yoga class
Rainbow Relaxation was the recording she found most helpful
Being told if she couldn't get BP under control she’d have to be induced
Wanted to avoid a cesarean due to the effect on the abdominals
Makes it to her due date; baby doing fine
At due date, they tell her she must be induced just in case her issues were preeclampsia
Arrival at hospital in the evening, cervidil to start induction
Bouncing on labor ball overnight and in morning, she’s in active labor
Risk out of using birthing center, using regular L&D unit
Lots of back labor, doula does lots of counterpressure & massage on her back while Joe faces her supporting her with hypnobirthing techniques
Doula helps her advocate for herself
Labor intensifies, labor progresses slowly because of posterior and larger baby
Get in tub, hydrotherapy helps
Friend comes to swap out with doula & Joe here and there
Hospital pressure with regard to timing, so they asked her to get out of tub
Midwives start to get concerned that attending might pressure for cesarean if they don’t somehow get things going
They encourage her to get epidural around 5pm (~22 hrs after beginning the induction) in order to help labor progress
Epidural actually slows things, so they have to augment with pitocin
BP never an issue through any part of labor
ready to push around 1am, epidural has worn off
Pushing for 3 hours, not allowed to be in any position besides on her back
Significant tearing, she thinks it was due to having too much IV fluid
After birth, Joe had to go home due to a shared postpartum room
Not getting optimal care in the postpartum unit
Lactation consultant comes by in the hospital, checks out latch, says it’s good
Baby Bronwyn cries a lot at first; they go home the following day
Concerns about baby being dehydrated
Call a lactation consultant to see them on short notice; they drive to Brooklyn to be seen
IBCLC notices baby is doing non-nutritive sucking, perhaps due to sucking thumb in womb
IBCLC recommends SNS supplementation to encourage baby to learn to suck and this works
Wishes she had been able to know baby was posterior earlier to be proactive in helping her shift

2nd PREGNANCY/BIRTH STORY:

Doing Pilates during pregnancy
Relaxin issues, lots of aches, changing shoes and being intentional with functional movements
Looks into birthing centers, but then chooses to give birth at home after discussing with a hospital midwife
Hires Kristen Leonard
Rents a birthing pool
Asks her friend Kim to be her doula (the friend who helped the first time)
Chooses to use hypnobirthing again
Doing all the routine tests at hospital, but most appointments were in her own home with her midwife
Her aunt was going to be there and couldn’t stay for long, so she tried all the things -- acupuncture, swimming, castor oil -- Matteo just wouldn’t come
Went 2 weeks past due date and has contractions just here and there, nothing consistent
Scheduled to go in for a non-stress test, buys herself another day because she’s not feeling well
Labor starts amidst her not feeling well, calls midwife early on to say she thinks maybe she’s in labor
Joe starts to inflate pool
After about an hour, contractions very suddenly intensify and surprise her
Joe calls Kim and asks her to come
Right after Kim arrives, her water breaks
Contractions coming on top of each other
Joe & Kim help her into the tub in living room
They realize Joe forgot to put the liner in the pool
Bronwyn (4 years old) is there watching
Much louder than last labor
They call the midwife, who’s fairly nearby with another client so she makes it just in time
She uses singing in an unexpected way, holds a specific pitch throughout the contraction
The whole labor was an amazingly fast; midwife says she’s ready to push
Gives birth on her knees in the water, fast pushing stage
Matteo cries, but not as loudly as Bronwyn
Kristen does some suctioning on Matteo and a little mouth to mouth and then he pinks up more readily
Friends/family on the block come to visit same day
Kristen comes back next day to check him and he’s doing well
Matteo nurses well, but toward end of 2nd day Linnea notices some things that don’t seem quite right
Seems too sleepy, has a bit of a head twitch
She calls midwife, who tells her to trust her instincts even though midwife had just checked him out and he looked fine
Calls friend from down the street. While her friend and she are looking at him, he stops breathing. Linnea starts doing mouth to mouth while they drive to Mt. Sinai Queens. He has seizure while at ER
The ER doesn’t have adequate pediatric supplies and has trouble getting a line into him
Transfer to Mt. Sinai Manhattan for thorough testing.
Develops jaundice and has to be treated for that.
Tests come back negative, so they determine that Matteo’s liver didn’t transition from in utero to ex utero correctly. So he had a blood sugar crash -- giving him a glucose line helped his liver transition
The importance of trusting your instincts as a parent
Discussion of the grief of losing her mother

Interview Transcript

Lisa: Today I have with me, a dear friend of mine, Linnea. Welcome Linnea.

[00:00:05] Linnea: Hi, glad to be here.

[00:00:07] Lisa: We go way back. I can't even remember how many years ago we met, but it's probably like going on 20 years or so?

[00:00:12] Linnea: Yeah, no, I think it's pretty close. Yeah, if it, if it isn't, it's got to be really close to that.

[00:00:18] Lisa: Linnea is an opera singer. She is our worship leader for Astoria Community Church that we both go to; we're both members there. And Joe is a professor at Baylor University, but a program here up in New York that Baylor is my husband and my alma mater. So we have so many things in common with the music background and then Baylor and all those things. And she also teaches our kids piano lessons, which we're so grateful for virtual right now, which has been interesting, right?

[00:00:46] Linnea: Yes. It's been a challenge, but they've actually handled it really, really well. So they're making good progress.

[00:00:53] Lisa: I did a little introduction of you there, but why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself a little bit more if you don't mind.

[00:00:58] Linnea: Yes. I am a musician by training. Opera has been my primary training and I was doing a lot more opera singing when I had my children.

[00:01:07] I'm doing less of it now. Especially, none of it during the pandemic, but I've also been a church musician for many years play the piano and have led choirs and the music director at Astoria Community Church and worship director there. And yes, we live in Astoria; we've lived here since 2002.

[00:01:25] And my husband runs a program for Baylor University here in New York. So he's a college professor and runs that program here. And we love the city. He's film and digital media and communications professor. So film is kind of his area. So we love New York for many, many reasons. And we've loved raising our kids here. Bronwyn was born in 2005 and Matteo was born in 2009. So she's 15, almost 16, and he's 11.

[00:01:54] Lisa: Very similar ages to our kids because who were born in 2005 and 2008. So our kids have been growing up together

[00:02:00] Linnea: Yes, for many years.

[00:02:03] Lisa: So why don't we start a little bit with your first pregnancy and the different ways that you prepared for the journey into parenthood.

[00:02:12] Linnea: Okay. So when I was pregnant with Bronwyn I spent a lot of time reading and researching.

[00:02:19] I was excited about having a baby, but I also wanted to be prepared. My own mother had died at 49 of cancer. And so I didn't have her to ask questions. But she had had five children and loved the experience of childbirth and she had done Lamaze and she had talked to me about the ways in which really having specific birthing technique was important and practicing it and really being prepared for labor and not just kind of going in and hoping that it was all gonna turn out okay. So I felt like I had the concept of that in my mind, but I knew I needed to find my own birthing technique that would really work best for me.

[00:03:00] And I was hoping to find a team that I could work with that would also really be people I was comfortable with, who understood what my husband and I were looking for. I realized during my pregnancy that particularly since my mother wasn't there to be with us at the birth, that I really wanted to have a doula who could be there and give us since neither my husband or I had been through this yet, someone who could really give us some experience and support in that way. I had a relatively rough pregnancy in terms of nausea. I had quite a bit of it well into my second trimester. That was kind of difficult. And I had started off with an OB GYN that I didn't know very well, but had just been recommended to me by someone else.

[00:03:46] And my first few appointments there I wasn't really thrilled with her approach to even just discussing the pregnancy with me. She had a pretty medicalized approach to birth. And she also just, I don't know, the first appointment spent a lot of time talking about, you know, how not to gain too much weight during pregnancy and things like this.

[00:04:04] And I just felt really weren't the most important focal points. And when I was struggling with the nausea, she gave me some medication and told me it was, you know, completely safe. And I went home and looked up information on it and really was not comfortable with the potential side effects and just wish that she had had a more open conversation with me about some of those things.

[00:04:25] So, I think I was about five months in when I decided to make the switch to a midwife group. And had done some research and was interested in giving birth in a birthing center if possible. There weren't very many birthing centers in the city at that point; there still aren't.

[00:04:42] So that guided kind of where I ended up and I ended up with Midwifery of Manhattan.

[00:04:48] It was Sylvie Blaustein and was really happy with them. They worked as a team. Sylvie was kind of my main midwife, but I would see the different midwives on the team when I would come for my checkups. And depending on who was on call the weekend, I, you know, went into labor or what, or whenever it was I would get whoever was part of the team that was available.

[00:05:08] Their backup OB/GYN was Dr. Moritz who I also saw and really liked and ended up staying with him as my OB/GYN after

[00:05:19] Lisa: Who is highlighted in the Business of Being Born documentary.

[00:05:23] Linnea: Yes. Yeah. And very supportive and very supportive of midwifery and healthy unmedicated births. So that was really great to be introduced to all of them, and I just felt much more comfortable in that setting.

[00:05:34] Overall, other than the large amount of nausea, I had a pretty healthy pregnancy, but towards the end of my pregnancy started to have some trouble with high blood pressure. And I didn't really understand very well, the idea of white coat syndrome at that point. But what was happening was that I would go in for these checkups and my blood pressure would be higher.

[00:05:59] And at home we learned how to check it at home because they were concerned about it. And at home we would check in and it would be fine. So it became more and more frustrating as we went along because I would go in and, you know, it would be high again, and they'd be worried and. And it was hard to know how much to make of that but because it was my first pregnancy, they were taking it seriously, of course. I didn't have any of the other symptoms of preeclampsia. They were checking my urine for protein and none of those things were coming back in a worrisome way. But they were getting increasingly concerned because it was still high when I would come in for my checkups.

[00:06:35] I'm sort of jumping around a little bit, but as I was trying to figure out which birthing technique I wanted to do, I was reading about a number of them.

[00:06:44] And I also spoke with the midwives at Midwifery of Manhattan. And they had recently had a woman in their practice who had had a really great experience with Hypnobirthing. And they suggested that I check it out. Because they had just seen some really good results. So that was one of the ones I looked at seriously.

[00:07:03] And I ended up deciding that that was what we were going to use for our labor technique. I was looking into classes to do some training and they were all full. So I ended up getting a teacher who was able to come and basically just do a private session kind of intensive with us.

[00:07:22] And it was just one, but I got the books and I read them. And with Hypnobirthing, a lot of it is really practicing the relaxation techniques ahead of time. It's not that the techniques themselves are so complicated. It's that repetition, practicing them really develops the ability to then relax on command in specific ways, in connection with certain triggers and things like that in the labor setting.

[00:07:50] And it was also really helpful for me to understand the way in which the muscles worked during labor and the way in which relaxing certain muscles would allow labor to go more smoothly, allow the cervix to open; all of those things. The visualization of how that worked was really helpful for me.

[00:08:11] And as a singer, all of the abdominal musculature was something that I was already using in very specific ways to breathe correctly and support my singing. So a lot of that musculature was, was more familiar to me than it might've been to some. And it was helpful for me to visualize how I would need to be using that in labor.

[00:08:31] So all of those things connected for me to really make sense for why hypnobirthing was interesting to me and felt like a good fit. I was taking also some prenatal yoga classes during that time. And one specifically with a teacher whose name I can't remember, but she was really focused on good training techniques for trying to protect the abdominal muscles during pregnancy and specific abdominal exercises to try and help those muscles, both stretch for pregnancy, and also learning how to use your abdominal muscles to push correctly in labor.

[00:09:12] I specifically remember one of her recommendations was learning to pull the abdominal muscles back towards your spine before pushing down. And she said something that, you know, anytime you're having to sort of bear down it's really helpful to first pull in the abdominal wall, you know, into your back and then bear down.

[00:09:33] And that that made a big difference. So, you know, things like that, I was practicing that were helpful for me, both to practice them, but also to visualize and understand what was going on. And it was at that class, actually that I got the recommendation for my doula who we did hire. But so I was practicing. I had with hypnobirthing I had a relaxation tape. I was using the rainbow relaxation one that comes with the original book. And I would lie down for half an hour and listen to the tape and practice kind of the guided relaxation. My husband and I also practiced some sort of guided relaxations. There were certain exercises that we would practice together and doing them together was part of what was helpful. But as I was continuing to have issues with the high blood pressure, one of the things I found was that the relaxation practice that I was doing was something that was actually helping me when I had high blood pressure. And I actually got into a situation several times where I, towards the end of my pregnancy, where I went in and they said, We're worried about this.

[00:10:43] We need to send you to the hospital for observation. If your blood pressure can't come down, you're going to have to be induced. And this knowing what I knew about first pregnancies and first pregnancies being induced early, I very much did not want to be induced. I was very concerned about not ending up with a C-section for health reasons, but also as a singer, it was a real concern of mine because of my abdominal muscles and C-sections can really permanently affect abdominal muscles in some cases. So I was really not wanting that to happen, so I really didn't want to be induced. And I wanted my daughter to be able to stay in as long as she needed to.

[00:11:22] So it was a very stressful situation to be sent to the hospital and be told if you can't get your blood pressure down, you're being induced today

[00:11:30] Lisa: Not helping the blood pressure.

[00:11:32] Linnea: No, it's sort of the worst thing you could tell somebody who's trying to -- but what I found was I would put my headphones on, I would lie down on my left side and I would start to listen to my tape and I would just really focus on the relaxation and my breathing.

[00:11:47] And my blood pressure numbers would just drop. Cause they were monitoring me. And so, and they would, they would come in and sort of shake their heads and say, okay, "I've never seen this work before, but I guess you can go home." And this actually happened a couple of times. It was really instructive to me to see how that kind of relaxation and breathing could affect my body in these really significant ways.

[00:12:13] And honestly it gave me a lot more practice too, for the hypnobirthing techniques. Cause I was so focused on just getting through the end of the pregnancy and I basically made it to my due date and was in the same situation and they had done some stress tests on Bronwyn; she was doing fine.

[00:12:31] She never showed any sign of any kind of trouble. They really had nothing except the high blood pressure numbers to give them concern. But once I got to my due date, they said, you know, "We've let you get this far." And actually they said, "We've never had anybody with your issue get this far."

[00:12:50] And I was like, you know, "Well, I want to keep going." And they're like, "You don't realize that you've made it a lot further than we thought you would." So they said, "We need you to come in and be induced now because now you're at your due date. We don't want to push this any further in case this is preeclampsia."

[00:13:07] So with some trepidation we came in and I had had several friends who had had experiences something like this. And they had been given Cervidil and it had been enough for them to go into labor and they didn't have to do the Pitocin. So this was kind of my great hope that I could have Cervidil, have it overnight and be in labor by the morning and not have to do Pitocin.

[00:13:31] So I mentioned it to some of the nurses and they were. Yes, they were very skeptical. This doesn't happen very often. I was like, "Okay, well, this is my plan." So, yeah. And you know, the other thing was that they were worried about my blood pressure during labor, if it was high, you know, in these circumstances, would it spike during labor.

[00:13:53] And so they wanted to monitor that. And so we went in that evening and Joe was able to stay with me, which was great. And they gave me the Cervidil and I had, you know, as I talked about, I had a lot of breathing exercises and visualizations of trying to relax and open the cervix and the muscles that control the cervix.

[00:14:19] So I did a lot of those that night. I was able to bounce on a labor ball. I was trying to do things to get things open, you know, and moving. And thankfully, although I didn't get a lot of sleep that night, by morning I was in active labor. So they said, "Okay, you're an active labor. We don't have to do the Pitocin; let's just see how this goes." And so I had a day of labor. And it was an interesting day in many ways because, you know, the labor was able to progress on its own. It wasn't being rushed by the Pitocin. And I found the hypnobirthing techniques really, really worked for me.

[00:14:55] It was nice because while I wasn't allowed to give birth in the birthing center because of my high blood pressure. But the nurses on the regular labor and delivery floor were also trained to work in the birthing center. So they recognized and understood what I was doing with my birthing technique and that I wanted a quiet room.

[00:15:17] And actually it was interesting because hypnobirthing for me, it was very quiet. I was very focused on relaxation and Joe was very much a part of the work we were doing to help me relax. And I was also using the relaxation tape in labor; played it over and over again. But it really worked.

[00:15:35] So why stop something that's working? And, but it was interesting cause the nurses would come in and say, "This is such a quiet labor. This is so calm and peaceful in here." And I was like, "Don't break my focus," but it was really, it was really working well for me. As the day went on, I was having a lot of back labor.

[00:15:58] And my doula was helpful, not just for the support, emotional support and kind of talking through things, but she did many hours of massage and just pressure on my back during contractions, which really helped me. And I was so glad to have both her and my husband because she was working on my back and he was with me talking to me face to face and I needed him there with what we were doing with the hypnobirthing. So if I hadn't had both of them, I felt like, you know, I wouldn't have had what I needed to really labor well in this particular setting.

[00:16:33] Lisa: And did your doula come, do you remember when she joined you?

[00:16:38] Linnea: She joined us the next day.

[00:16:41] Lisa: When you were in active labor, probably?

[00:16:42] Linnea: Right, when we were in active labor is my memory of it. Yeah. I don't remember her being there the night before. So yeah, we called her once we were in active labor. And the other thing I wanted to just mention about the doula is that while I really liked my midwives and really enjoyed working with them, in labor, the midwives are much more focused on the birth side of things and aren't able to stay with you and do the kind of support that a doula is.

[00:17:10] And so I really felt like every aspect of that team was really needed. And I would not have wanted to dispense with any of them. And my doula was also really, she was supportive for me in particularly that hospital setting, she helped me kind of stand up for myself when I felt like I was kind of being pressured into some things.

[00:17:30] And so that was also just really helpful, especially for first time parents. But so as the day went on the labor was getting harder and harder and a lot of this back labor and what was frustrating was I wasn't progressing as quickly as they had hoped. Probably in large part because the back labor was difficult.

[00:17:47] What we found out later that we didn't know going into it was that Bronwyn was about a pound larger than they thought; she was almost nine pounds. And she was posterior, which explains why.

[00:18:00] Lisa: Oooo, double doozy.

[00:18:02] Linnea: And they said later that often posterior babies can hide their weight. They look smaller on the ultrasounds.

[00:18:08] And so those two things sort of went together. But it explained the back labor and it explains the slow progress. And you know, it's the first baby too, which is going to be usually slower. I had really wanted to be able to, you know, use different positioning. I was in the birthing center.

[00:18:27] I was really hoping to be able to use a tub because I'd heard such good things about that. So in the regular labor and delivery floor, they did have a tub. I had a bathroom with us, just a regular little bathtub. But they said that I could get in it and I did, and it really helped me.

[00:18:45] I was at a point where I was getting pretty tired and the back pain was pretty severe and I really was able to relax in that warm water in a way I hadn't been for a while. And it was kind of a good break for, I felt like both for me and the baby and a good friend of mine had come at that point just to check in and help and ended up staying --my friend Kim ended up staying for some hours and helping to give kind of the doula break or Joe a break. And she actually ended up being the friend I asked to be the doula for my second birth. But that sort of started there in the time she spent in this birth. But so she was with me as I was relaxing in the bath and sort of getting that break, but it was difficult because it was at that point that the midwives, instead of sort of letting us stay there, they felt like I couldn't stay in the bath because they were worried that it was going to slow labor down.

[00:19:36] And that I was on a schedule. The hospital had a set schedule of how much you had to pay progress in a certain amount of time. And if that didn't happen, they wanted to see interventions. And the midwives knew that I did not want interventions. And they knew that ultimately I really didn't want a C-section.

[00:19:52] So they were sort of trying to help me navigate the pressure that the hospital was putting on the schedule. So I couldn't stay in the bath as long as I [would have] liked. And when I came out it had slowed things down which is often sometimes something that can be helpful in the long labor, but it doesn't fit into the kind of the hospital schedule that I was under.

[00:20:13] And so at that point, they said, "We're concerned that if we don't do something to try and speed things up You could end up with a C-section and we know you don't want that. So I know you don't want an epidural, but maybe if you have an epidural, it will relax things and speed things up and the cervix will open.

[00:20:31] I really, really didn't want one. And I was, it was a hard thing to have to sort of agree to it as kind of a you know, I knew I didn't want to see a C-section maybe if I did this other thing I didn't want, I could prevent that. I didn't feel like the midwives were pressuring me. They were just telling me kind of the way it was, but I felt very pressured by the schedule of the hospital. Because I didn't, while I was tired, I didn't feel like I had reached the end of my rope.

[00:20:54] I felt like my birthing technique was working. There was no sign that Bronwyn was under any kind of stress. Of course they were checking for those things. Oh, and the other thing I should mention is that my blood pressure was perfectly fine for the whole labor. All of this long labor. Never had any issues with, sorry.

[00:21:10] Never had any issues in labor with blood pressure. So there were no like, you know, flashing warning signs. It was just this hospital schedule. So I agreed to the epidural.

[00:21:22] Lisa: And can you tell me about how many hours this has been from the time that they started the Cervidil?

[00:21:26] Linnea: So they started the Cervidil I think it was about seven o'clock the night before, and this is probably now five o'clock the next day.

[00:21:35] And I had started labor early that morning. So I had been laboring, you know, a good part of the day, but the concern was I just wasn't dilated enough at this point. I was certainly dilated, but I wasn't dilated enough. I think I was around five or six. And it was frustrating to go through a number of hours of back labor and then have them check and be like, it's not much bigger than you were, you know, feels like it-- that was hard. But I also, again, felt like what I was doing was working and it was hard once I had the epidural it was difficult. I tried to continue the breathing exercises and other things I'd been doing, but it's pretty hard when you're numb to do some of those things and to figure out, you know, I was trying to do the ones that would help to open the cervix.

[00:22:18] And I did try and continue to do that during the time I had the epidural, but it was just hard to tell. And then unfortunately, as is often the case, the epidural, instead of speeding things up, it slowed things down. So then my contractions slowed down and they told me I had to have Pitocin. Which is so often the case with interventions is that one leads to another,

[00:22:42] Lisa: Right. And these days actually often they just pair Pitocin automatically with an epidural, many, many places do.

[00:22:48] Linnea: Yeah. And I think in this case they knew I didn't want Pitocin. So they were willing to sort of try it without, but I think, you know, they probably knew that was going to happen. I don't know. So then I had the Pitocin and went through some hours of that and then finally it wasn't until about one in the morning that I was ready to push that I was dilated enough to push. By this point, the epidural had basically worn off in terms of pain.

[00:23:17] So I was back in the pain, but they wouldn't allow me to, you know, do anything, any kind of other positioning for pushing. So I was on my back in a position that felt very, just very difficult to get any help of gravity or even sort of the kind of abdominal support to really bear down well.

[00:23:40] So I felt like I was kind of in the worst of worlds and that I, you know, I was certainly in pain. I could feel it, but I wasn't able to move around or do the things that would have helped me. And I ended up having to push for three hours. Which was a lot at that point. So this is my second night now.

[00:23:56] And they had had me on IV fluids because of, you know, once you put on epidural and all of that, they want you on IV fluids and they didn't want me, you know, drinking and that kind of thing. And they weren't monitoring the IV fluids very well. They were just pumping a lot of them in and the pushing was hard cause I was on my back and that was the only time--the nurses I had felt had been very sensitive and, you know, to my birth plan.

[00:24:23] But I had a nurse when I was pushing who was less than sensitive and was kind of had her own way that she wanted me to do it, and it was different from what I had been practicing. And she was kind of in my face and just telling me to do it this way and at that point you're pretty vulnerable.

[00:24:39] You don't have a lot left and it was difficult to have to kind of deal with that. But I did get to a point where I really felt like I didn't have much left and I was worried. But they said, you know, you're close. Just, you know, as hard as you can. And these next couple pushes, give everything you've got.

[00:24:57] And finally, she came on those last few pushes. My doula was actually down watching her be born. And one of my concerns with the fluids was that my body actually had too many fluids at that point. And my vaginal tissues were really bloated by that point.

[00:25:18] And of course they'd been under a lot of pressure from all of this long labor and pushing. And when she was born, I tore really badly. And the doula said she really felt like it was directly connected with the amount of fluids I had because she said she could just see the tissue just separate.

[00:25:35] And that was a factor I think in that. But Bronwyn was born, crying, loudly, very loud

[00:25:46] Lisa: Practicing her singer vocal cords

[00:25:48] Linnea: From minute one. And they brought her up to my chest and I was able to hold her and comfort her for a few minutes. And then they, you know, took her in the room still, but weighed her and, you know, cleaned her up, Joe was with her.

[00:26:00] But then she was able to stay with us. I did have to be sewn up for quite a while. I don't remember delivering the placenta. I think I was just so tired at that point. That wasn't something that stuck out, but they had to bring in another doctor to actually stitch me up because it was a pretty big job and they

[00:26:18] Lisa: Do you remember what degree tear it was?

[00:26:21] Linnea: Well, I asked them some questions about it and it was like they didn't want to tell me. They said, "It was really bad, but you know, you're going to be fine." And I said, "Well, how many stitches?" And they said, "You don't want to know." So they really didn't tell me that.

[00:26:35] Lisa: I had the same experience.

[00:26:36] Linnea: Yeah. I mean, it was sorta like they thought that was gonna, you know, make it better or something that if I didn't know, but of course I was the one that was having to live with it

[00:26:46] Lisa: Right, you need to know.

[00:26:48] Linnea: And I couldn't even, I couldn't even really walk in that first day or two. It was pretty, pretty painful.

[00:26:54] And I had a number of, I mean, walking was an issue for me for a number of weeks after that. I mean, I could walk, but just the pressure of being up on my feet was, you know, was painful. But I did heal up, you know, without any other complications. I did sitz baths and other things like that, that I think helped.

[00:27:13] But yeah, it was a pretty significant tear, but I didn't ever get the details. And I, you know, again, I was a first time mom and I didn't push for some of the things I think I would've pushed for in another scenario. But we went to a regular room after that.

[00:27:28] And Joe had to go home because it wasn't visiting hours at that point. Which was fine because we were tired and I had Bronwyn with me, but it was kind of difficult because as much as I had appreciated the nurses in the labor and delivery, in the recovery the care wasn't as helpful. And like, I wasn't supposed to get out of bed and go to the bathroom. I had to call someone to ask me to come and help me. And I waited almost an hour at one point. And I finally just called Joe and said, I'm sorry, you just need to come back. Cause I can't get help and I need to go to the bathroom and I can't get out of bed, you know? And at one point I remember asking for an ice pack because the localized painkiller was wearing off and it was quite painful. And the nurse took a surgical glove and stuck ice in it and tied to that a lot and handed it to me and said, "These are our only ice packs," but you know, as soon as the ice melted, it leaked all over the place. And then I was just wet and in pain. So I wasn't very impressed with that level, you know, in New York City, you think you would think you'd get better [care].

[00:28:30] Yeah. And it was a shared room, so we soon had another newborn and her family and, you know, babies are crying at different times. That's not an easy thing, but for the most part, it was fine. We were just eager to go home as soon as we could. I was eager to have a lactation consultant, just check in with us just cause I knew how important it was to start nursing off well. And they were able to get someone who came by and checked her latch and said her latch was good. But Bronwyn was crying quite a lot, especially the following night. And they, you know, we couldn't quite figure out why she was so upset and they said, well, maybe she just needs some formula.

[00:29:11] And I really didn't want to do that because I wanted her to be breastfeeding. And she was latching well, so, you know, they said sometimes babies are just fussy and they're just getting adjusted. And so we went home the following day and we continued to feel like she was crying quite a bit at certain times.

[00:29:34] And she wasn't interested in a pacifier at all. She would suck on one of our fingers. That was sort of the only thing that would soothe her. And she was nursing, but I was starting to be concerned that she wasn't getting enough or wasn't getting milk or colostrum at that point, because I started feeling like she was looking maybe a little dehydrated.

[00:29:54] She had some dry skin around her mouth and on her lips. And I just felt like she wasn't happy. And she wasn't, you know, after she would nurse, it didn't seem like she was comforted enough and full. So we actually ended up looking around sort of quickly for a lactation consultant who could see us on short notice. Cause I was really getting concerned about Bronwyn and thinking, even though I was a brand new mom, I just felt like something wasn't right. And the hospital had said everything was fine, but I just, I could tell something wasn't right.

[00:30:25] So we found someone who could see us that day. We drove down to Brooklyn. And

[00:30:29] Lisa: Oh, you had to go somewhere.

[00:30:31] Linnea: Yes, we did. And that was hard. Again, it was last minute and I was just glad anybody would see us. I'm trying to remember. It may have even been a Sunday. I think it was maybe a weekend or something, you know, there was some, but I didn't want to wait another day cause I was concerned about her.

[00:30:46] So it was very helpful. I'm so thankful we did it. Because she watched Bronwyn nursing. And she said that while Bronwyn was latching correctly, that she was not sucking correctly. And she was doing what was called a non-nutritive suck. And she said babies can often learn this if they suck on a finger or a thumb in the womb.

[00:31:10] So when you're sucking on your thumb or your finger, you're sucking in a little bit of a different way than you need to suck to actually get milk out of a breast. And so she was sucking, but she wasn't sucking correctly. And so she wasn't actually getting anything out of me and that was why she was thirsty, hungry, poor thing.

[00:31:29] So the solution that the lactation consultant recommended to us was an SNS system. Is that, is that what they're called, Lisa? I'm trying to remember myself,

[00:31:38] Lisa: Yes, that's right. Supplemental nursing system is what SNS stands for.

[00:31:42] Linnea: Yes, that's right. And it's basically a little tiny tube that you have to tape to your nipple and it has formula.

[00:31:51] It has a little bag that has a little bit of formula that comes down through that tube. And so when the baby is nursing, she gets a little bit of that formula in her mouth that causes her to swallow and kind of gulp. And that kind of jump-starts the correct sucking. And she starts to understand how to suck correctly to actually get her food.

[00:32:10] So while I was reluctant to have to do any formula, because I was hoping to just do breast milk, I understood the purpose of this and it was actually a very small amount of formula in the end cause we only had to do it for a few days. But it was interesting because the gulping was one of the things that the lactation consultant was looking for; she was checking to see if she was sucking correctly and she could see that she wasn't swallowing. She wasn't gulping. And that was one of the reasons she could tell that she wasn't actually getting anything. So that helped us understand what we needed to be looking for.

[00:32:41] And thankfully that did the trick and we were able to do that for a few days and she adjusted well, and my milk came in because that's the other issue with non-nutritive suck is that it won't bring your milk in. You need that the stronger sucking in order for the milk to come in.

[00:32:59] So that was something else I didn't know. So I was really thankful for that lactation consultant and that we, you know, knew enough to get her help and it really made the difference and Brown when adjusted well. And yeah. So I was really thankful for a lot of these different things, even though the birthing experience didn't end up fitting our birth plan.

[00:33:20] We were very thankful to have a healthy baby at the end and to not have to do a C-section. And I was really impressed with how hypnobirthing worked through all of those hours of labor. It really did make a difference. So.

[00:33:32] Lisa: Yeah. And one thing I'm hearing that I just want to reiterate is that you really laid that foundation, that groundwork, that you said how important it was to have done that prenatally. Because if you don't do it until that big day, it's not going to be as powerfully helpful.

[00:33:50] Linnea: Yeah. I don't think it would have helped me much at all because what was so helpful was that certain things had become second nature. And my body had learned to respond to certain triggers in a really direct kind of one-to-one way.

[00:34:05] So some of those triggers were exercises that Joe and I did together. And he would just start them over and over and we would do them, spiraling the pain away and, you know, these very different things. But the other was that tape. I mean, it was kind of a cheesy tape and the music wasn't that great.

[00:34:19] And you know, everybody in the hospital, it was in my room had it memorized by the end. But it worked, it worked for me and I was just like, I'm sorry, turn it over and start it again because I would hear certain things and I could just feel my body relaxing and I could feel the pain being, you know, manageable. So it was just it was very directly helpful, but that wouldn't have been there for me if I hadn't done that time practicing, you know, when I was pregnant. And besides it helping my blood pressure, it was also a good practice for me just to force myself to rest. Especially in those later months of pregnancy where you're supposed to be getting off your feet and lying down a little bit more and stuff, having to practice the relaxation technique was something that also got me off my feet, got me to lie down, got me to slow down. That's not usually my gift; I'm not a big napper. So it was, it was a good thing that kind of forced me into some things that I think were helpful for a number of reasons.

[00:35:24] Lisa: Do you know if Bronwyn rotated into anterior position before she was born or not?

[00:35:32] Linnea: No, she didn't. She came out.

[00:35:34] Lisa: That's remarkable than a nine pound baby in posterior position was able to come through your pelvis.

[00:35:41] Linnea: Yeah. Well, and I think that's another reason partly too, that I tore.

[00:35:45] Lisa: Oh, yeah. I don't doubt that at all.

[00:35:47] Linnea: Yeah. So yeah. And once we kind of knew all those things, looking back on it, it made more sense of it, but it was hard as I was in the midst of it not really knowing why this was so hard. And you know, the midwives did say we're starting to think she might be posterior, but yeah. And that was also, you know, I wish had I known more and had I had more freedom to try some different positioning and things like that, I think it would've made a difference for me.

[00:36:15] Lisa: Sure. Cause being on your back is not going to help the heavier part of the head to rotate to your belly.

[00:36:21] Linnea: Basically the worst position I could have. And you know, I've had more experience since then, even with other friends giving birth and seeing how those kinds of positioning changes make a difference.

[00:36:31] So I wish I had had that. And I wish I had-- I mean, even going into labor, if we'd known that she was posterior, we could have anticipated some of those things better.

[00:36:42] Lisa: Yeah, I wish they would just check that out in triage when we arrive. That should be standard.

[00:36:47] Linnea: Yeah. I was really surprised to find out that they didn't know that.

[00:36:52] And even things like the weight differential, you know, they, they tell you you can't know for sure when they give you the estimated weight, but if they knew that the baby was posterior or they could also say, " it's likely this baby's bigger than we think too," because of that, that they hide their weight.

[00:37:09] Lisa: Yeah, interesting thought. Well, is there anything else that you wanted to share about that first experience?

[00:37:16] Linnea: I don't think so. I mean, as difficult as the hospital experience was, I remember coming home and just being so thankful to be home and so thankful to have a healthy baby and so thankful, even though it hurt a lot to walk around with her outside.

[00:37:33] And she was very strong and alert from the beginning. And like I said, very loud, the nurses at the hospital kept saying, "Boy, she has got a set of lungs on her." And I was thankful in many ways for those things, because I had been concerned with all these interventions about how they might impact her.

[00:37:53] So I was thankful that she was, you know, so vigorous from the beginning. One thing I did learn that I wish I'd known more in retrospect. She was always a good nurser and we nursed for a long time, but she was also a huge spitter-upper and sometimes would spit up, you know, almost as much as she had just nursed which was very frustrating.

[00:38:14] And I wish I'd known what I know now, which is that there were probably some food changes I could have made to my diet that might have really impacted that. And I did actually learn later after my son was born that I had a gluten intolerance that it turned into an allergy that I didn't know that I had.

[00:38:32] And I think that that could have been a factor in all of that. But I just didn't know enough then to realize that that was maybe an issue for her.

[00:38:41] Lisa: Yeah. That spitting up can be challenging. My first didn't really do it, but Ella, my daughter--projectile vomiting, I was like, "What is happening?"

[00:38:54] Linnea: I mean, we didn't have any clothes that didn't have spit up on them by the end. I mean, it was just, it was a lot. And, you know, you worry that they're not getting enough to eat because there's so much being spit up. And there was a period where she was quite fussy. But then she kind of got through it and grew quickly. And so...

[00:39:13] Lisa: So then let's go into your second pregnancy journey. What was your pregnancy like? Anything to note about how that went and your choices of care provider and birth location?

[00:39:25] Linnea: So my second pregnancy was easier in some ways. I still did have a lot of trouble with nausea, but it wasn't as extensive as it was with Bronwyn. I knew more about what I was doing, which was helpful-- what to expect. In the years between my pregnancies, I had started working with a Pilates instructor and was able to kind of do some more tailored prenatal Pilates work during my pregnancy.

[00:39:50] And I think that that was, that was really helpful for me. I did have both with Bronwyn and with Matteo, I did have issues with relaxin where just my hips and my back got quite painful. Just with all of the sort of extra movement that was happening because of the relaxin. So I had to be more careful in that second pregnancy about the shoes that I wore, you know, as a New Yorker, you're walking so much and I had to really be more careful about what shoes I was wearing and just how much positioning for things like getting in and out of cars or anything where I would sort of had to move my legs sideways could be quite painful. But knowing what that was, I felt, was helpful because I understood that I hadn't suddenly developed a terrible back problem, but this was something that was specifically pregnancy-related.

[00:40:37] Lisa: Were you ever diagnosed with symphysis pubis dysfunction?

[00:40:40] Linnea: No. And I didn't really, you know, I never really had it checked out in that way. I was aware of what it was and if I was careful about it, I was okay. So I just didn't really pursue it that much in that way, but yeah,

[00:40:54] Lisa: When you said getting into and out of cars, that was what made me wonder if there was that issue in the front of your pelvis. Because that can really be triggering the separating a leg to get into a car.

[00:41:06] Linnea: That was, yeah. Well, that really was one of the hardest things or any, any movement that was that kind of separating a leg to step over something or whatever. So it's possible. I just never really got diagnosed.

[00:41:19] And in terms of sort of the decisions we were making about hospitals and labor decisions and all of that, having had the experience in the hospital with Bronwyn, I really didn't want to end up in a scenario again where I was under that kind of pressure to deliver on a schedule. Particularly if everything else was looking fine and the baby was healthy and I was healthy. I wanted to have more freedom to deliver at my own pace.

[00:41:44] So I was looking into birthing centers again and having had the experience with trying to do a birthing center the first time and not being allowed to birth there, I talked to several different midwives in several different hospitals and basically got a midwife who I appreciated because she was really very honest. And she said, "Look, the fact of it is there aren't that many birthing centers and the rules are so strict with them that very few people who even try and give birth there actually get to give birth there.

[00:42:17] Lisa: Yeah. So easy to risk out.

[00:42:19] Linnea: Yeah. So just be aware that you're more likely to risk out than not, especially if you risked out on your first one. And if that's your choice, that's fine, but just be aware that that's the case. And so I started talking with her about home birth possibilities and she was really helpful in just kind of laying out the options there. And I started researching them more and met with Kristen Leonard, who was a home birth midwife out of Brooklyn at the time.

[00:42:46] And we really, really liked her. And we really felt comfortable with her approach and her setup, she is a very experienced midwife and well-trained midwife and had a, you know, a doctor backing her up in a hospital. And my pregnancy was healthy. I was healthy.

[00:43:06] And we just felt like this was what we wanted to do. So we decided to do a home birth with Matteo and I remembered my good experience in the bathtub with Bronwyn. So we decided to rent a birthing tub that we could blow up and put in our living room and fill up ourselves. And so we, you know, kind of went through figuring that out.

[00:43:29]Where to rent it and do we buy one? Do we rent one? You know, all of those options. I asked my friend Kim, who had helped that time during Bronwyn's birth if she would be my doula. And I was going to continue to do hypnobirthing as well because I felt like it worked so well with my first birth.

[00:43:46] One of the things that was wonderful about having Kristen as our midwife was that almost all of my prenatal appointments were at my house. She just came and so I laid down on my own couch and that was so great. It was so nice to not be hauling my pregnant body into the city.

[00:44:03] And especially with my white coat syndrome issues, I felt like, you know, all of that trouble and everything was sort of part of what led to those issues. And while I still had some issues with blood pressure going up. Some when Kristin would check it. It was still pretty clear that it was kind of related to me worrying about-- because when Joe would do it, it would be fine. And I could also demonstrate how I could just have it come back down as soon as I did my relaxation stuff. And that in itself was a sign that this was not sort of a systemic preeclampsia problem, but it was more, you know, around me worrying about my blood pressure.

[00:44:43] And it was helpful because Matteo was due the 1st of July and it was hot and having, you know, it was so nice as it got hotter to not have to go out into the city for appointments and stuff. So I did have my regular ultrasounds. I did things like, you know, the diabetes test, and these other glucose tests and other things like that at the hospital, but, but my regular prenatal appointments were at home and that was wonderful.

[00:45:09] So the pregnancy really progressed fine. There weren't some of the scares and worries that we'd had with Bronwyn, because we were worried less about the blood pressure thing. But Matteo was due at the beginning of July and my aunt who had come to be with me after Bronwyn's birth planned to come and be with me for Matteo.

[00:45:28] And we sort of figured out a date we thought would be likely, and she came. And he still wasn't there. And she had to go back to another commitment. So we tried everything we could think of to get him to come. I was going up to Astoria pool and swimming cause I was big and huge and you know, I was walking as much as I could.

[00:45:48] We tried acupuncture. We tried, you name it, the list of the sort of natural things you can do. We even did castor oil. And he just would not budge. And my aunt eventually had to leave, which was really sad. And we basically got, I got to two weeks past my due date and, you know, there weren't any like big things happening, but Kristen was saying, you know, we have to start figuring something; I can't just let you go and go. And I really think we need to go in and have you do a stress test and just make sure that he's doing fine. I had been doing some tests along the way and everything looked good, but you know, here I am two weeks past and, you know, she said, I think the time has come.

[00:46:33] I'm sorry to tell you. But, you know, he doesn't seem to want to come. I had been having, you know, sets of contractions here and there during those days and they would start up and I'd get excited and then they would just fizzle out. So, you know, there were things happening, but nothing that was really leading to labor.

[00:46:49] And so she had said on the 14th or she'd said that she wanted me to go in on the 15th. And it was supposed to be a really hot day and I wasn't feeling great. And I just begged her. I said, "Can I just have one more day? And if he doesn't show up tomorrow, I promise I will go in the next day."

[00:47:06] And she said, "Okay, all right. One more day. Let's see what happens." So we took a walk to the park that day and got some pizza on the way there. And on the way back, I was not feeling great. And I thought, why on earth did I eat that pizza? That was terrible, you know? And I thought it was the pizza, but by the time I got home, I started realizing maybe this is more than the pizza.

[00:47:30] Maybe this is really labor and then contractions started. But they had sort of fizzled out before. So I didn't know if I should get my hopes up. So I was sitting on the bed trying to sort of do final emails and do some work for church and for about an hour and the contractions were continuing.

[00:47:45] But they were light. They were, you know, I was able to sit there and write email. And so we called Kristin and said "You know, we think things are, are going now. But it's still early." You know, I was thinking about how long my labor had been with Bronwyn and thinking you know, sometime tonight you'll probably need to come up here and check on us and see how we're doing.

[00:48:05] But I was thinking I had quite a bit of time. So Joe was getting the tub blown up. But it still didn't have water in it yet. And we hadn't changed some of the sheets on the bed to our special sheets for, you know, we'd gotten old sheets to protect the bed and stuff like that.

[00:48:20] And suddenly after about an hour of just easy, these easy contractions, suddenly they got much, much more intense, just kind of from zero to 60 in a minute kind of thing. And that was a real surprise cause nothing like that had happened in my first labor and I was anticipating that it would sort of gradually build. I hadn't even really been doing a lot of my technique stuff yet because I hadn't needed to. I could just kind of breathe through the contractions and you know, I was doing that kind of stuff, but I wasn't having to really focus.

[00:48:50] So I called Joe and I mean he was in and out, but he was trying to get the tub set up. I said, "I need you. It's getting really, you know, intense all of a sudden." So he called Kim our doula who thankfully was just down the street and told her to come. And she got there and he was frantically trying to get the tub filled up.

[00:49:10] Because that takes a while. Yeah. And you know, he thought he had hours and he didn't have hours.

[00:49:15] Lisa: That sounds like my husband our second time around. It sounds very familiar.

[00:49:18] Linnea: So, you know, he was in the living room trying to do that and I'm screaming in the bedroom. And so Kim was able to come and help, but shortly after she got there, my water broke on the bed still.

[00:49:28] And again, just much earlier than we expected. And I was already to a point where I wasn't sure I could make it to the living room, like it was so intense. And the contractions were coming so quickly. But they were, and I was, you know, I was still wearing the clothes I've been wearing that day. I mean, I hadn't done all the things I thought I was going to get to do.

[00:49:49] Thankfully between one contraction and the next, they kind of took me both on each side and just kind of hustled me into the tub in the living room. We realized later that Joe in his hurry to get things filled up, had forgotten to put the liner in the, in the [pool]; that's not what we're supposed to do. We had to sterilize it afterwards. So that was a little crazy, but I did make it in. And we had also decided to have our daughter Bronwyn, who was four at the time be present for the birth if she wanted to be. Because the last time had been so quiet and so calm and, you know, we thought, "Well, she won't be scared. I'm not gonna be screaming. It was, you know, it was quiet and calm and, you know, hypnobirthing." Well, that was not the case here because it was happening so fast. She was there and we could have sent her to our friends down the street. But she was doing fine, actually. She was quite interested in it.

[00:50:44] But it was difficult because I was already starting to feel like I needed to push. And I thought something was wrong because I thought there's no way I could possibly be ready to push yet. But when things had gotten intense in the bedroom and I was still in the bedroom, we did call Kristen and say, "It's gotten really fast really quickly. Can you please come?" And thankfully Kristin was already on another call that was already sort of in our direction. If she had been all the way down in her home in Brooklyn, I'm not sure she would have made it in time. But she was able to come straight from another call and she walked in the door.

[00:51:18] I was in the tub and I was on my knees. I found that that was a better position. And Joe was able to sit on the couch and I was able to kind of put my head and arms in his lap and, you know, use that pressure through the contractions. The other thing that I found was that I was actually sort of using my singing in a way that I hadn't expected.

[00:51:41] I'd heard of singers who found that singing through labor was helpful for them. And I couldn't quite figure that out compared to the hypnobirthing technique had worked for me. But in this case where it had come on so quickly, what I did find was that when the contractions were bad, there was sort of like a certain pitch that I would hit.

[00:51:58] And it was like I had to find the right pitch for each contraction. And then I would just hold that pitch pretty loudly. But it helped for whatever reason, and some of it, I think, was the pressure that's created. It just kind of helped push against all of those contractions.

[00:52:12] So I was kind of probably sounded more like keening or something, you know, but just a really high pitch, you know, and it helped me. So anyway, Kristen came in and immediately checked me and said, "You're ready to push." And, you know, the whole process was maybe two hours. I'm not sure it was even two hours long. And, you know, in retrospect, if I had not been doing a home birth, I wouldn't have made it to the hospital because I wouldn't have gone to the hospital in that first hour when I was sitting there writing an email. Right. And then suddenly what we realized later was that I basically was transitioning in the bedroom.

[00:52:51] So I went from, so my body, I think in those two weeks in those sort of contractions, that would happen and then go away. My body was actually I think, preparing for labor. And then when it came. It was just a lot quicker.

[00:53:05] Lisa: It does sound that way. It sounds like you had this sort of prodromal labor happening.

[00:53:09] Linnea: Yeah. I mean, it was just so light that it just, you know, but so when Kristen came in and said I could push, I think I pushed three times and he came out. I mean, it was the three hours of being a labor pushing with Bronwyn is a very different experience. I was still on my knees, which worked well for me.

[00:53:28] Kristen caught him under the water and brought him right up. And he cried right away as well. Not as loudly as Bronwyn. Right after birth you know, we were talking to him, he was looking at us. I was in the tub and my family was around me and Kristen was a little concerned with his color.

[00:53:45] He wasn't pinking up as quickly. So she took him and kind of cleaned him out a little bit and did a little bit of breathing into his mouth because she felt like he was not, he wasn't crying. He had stopped crying as much. So that was a little concerning for a few seconds, but thankfully he responded right away and started breathing fine on his own and pinked up then.

[00:54:08] And he was very alert and very just kind of eyes wide open looking right into our eyes. He just was really alert but happy too. So, and I do remember delivering the placenta. I was still in the tub and was not really wanting to do any more contractions, but it wasn't thankfully it wasn't difficult.

[00:54:28] And then, you know, I was sort of just happy to just stay there for a while. Cause it felt relaxing, but you know, then Kristen got me up and we got cleaned up and got into my own bed and it was just so wonderful to be in my own home, in my own bed with my baby and friends bringing food.

[00:54:50] Friends were able to come down the street and family later that night and meet him. And it was just such a lovely, warm, wonderful experience. And it was just such a contrast to being in the hospital after the birth the first time. And I just was really, really thankful for it.

[00:55:09] And Kristen came the next day and checked him again and he was doing great. She had done the checks the first day and his APGAR score was great. But everything was looking good. And thankfully he was a little smaller than Bronwyn, but also it was just a much easier birth.

[00:55:24] And I had not had to have any stitches or anything like that. And so I was feeling, you know, better than I did after that first birth. It's always difficult after labor, but I wasn't in as much pain. And he was nursing well. But towards the end of his second day, I started noticing a few things that even though he hadn't been out very long, I felt like didn't quite fit how he had been behaving.

[00:55:51] And it sounds strange to say this, but he was acting too sleepy, in some ways, which, you know, newborns are obviously very sleepy. So how do you say a newborn is too sleepy? But he had been sleeping and waking and quite alert. And he was acting much more drowsy and kind of draggy and just sort of snuggling up and just not really waking up as much as he had been.

[00:56:14] And the other thing he was doing was he was doing kind of a funny little twitching, whereas his head was just sort of moving in this funny little twitching manner that I'd never really seen. And it just seemed a little too repetitive, you know? And I just felt like something wasn't right. But I didn't know how to trust myself, because again, I was, you know, just had a baby.

[00:56:37] I was tired. I was emotional. And I called my midwife and I told her what was going on. And she said, "Well, I saw him this morning and he looked great. There wasn't anything concerning, but you are his mother and you should trust your motherly instincts. Don't brush them aside because you're tired and hormonal."

[00:56:56] Lisa: I just got chills hearing that-- take it seriously.

[00:56:59] Linnea: And she said, you know, "Take him in, get him checked out. Don't second guess yourself," basically. And so I was still, again, the things he was doing were so mild, but I just wasn't at peace about it.

[00:57:12] So I asked a friend of mine who lived down the street, who had had four children. And had seen lots of babies. She just come down and take a look at him before we called the doctor to go in and get him checked out. So she came down, we were sitting on the porch, he was in a little bouncy seat in front of us and we were watching him.

[00:57:30] And he suddenly made like this, his whole face kind of went like this. And the color drained out of his face. And he stopped breathing while we were watching him. And, you know, we said his name, we grabbed him. He wasn't breathing, he wasn't responding. So I immediately started doing mouth to mouth with newborns. You know, you do it over their mouth and nose.

[00:57:54] Lisa: Had you taken a class?

[00:57:55] Linnea: I had not, I had just read about it and seen people do it and just knew that that was what you were supposed to do, but I just was doing whatever I could. Joe started calling 911 and we realized, " we can't wait for an ambulance." You know, he's only a couple of days old and he's not breathing. We don't have the time. And we have a hospital not far from us. So we grabbed Bronwyn. Who, I don't think had any shoes on. And Kelly came with us to help us with Bronwyn. We found out later we left our front door wide open and we just ran to the car.

[00:58:29] Yeah. I mean, we ran to the car and we're driving madly to the hospital and the ER. The whole way there I was breathing, giving him mouth to mouth and he was responding a little as I would breathe. So I could tell that it was making a difference, what I was doing. And was sort of letting out little cries. But, you know, so I ran once we got there, I literally ran, I ran right past triage.

[00:58:55] I just went right into the middle of the ER and said, "My three day old baby isn't breathing." And they were wonderful in that they immediately responded and started trying to figure out what was going on. I had doctors and nurses around me right away, but it's a very small ER, it's Mount Sinai Queens.

[00:59:13] And they didn't have some of the, you know, teeny, tiny pediatric tools that they needed. So that, for example, they were trying to get a line into him to give him glucose. And they just didn't have the right size needle. And they were really struggling to get a line into his vein. And while he, while that was happening, he started having a little seizure.

[00:59:32] And I said, "Is he having a seizure?" Cause his limbs were kind of jerking a little. And they said, "Yes." So it was very, very frightening. And once they got the line into him and we were also having to hold oxygen on for him because they didn't have the right size, you know, oxygen masks for a teeny baby. Once they got the line into him, he was doing much better, but at this point we had no idea what had happened and what was going on. And I called and spoke with Kristen cause they were saying, "We're going to have to do all these tests on him."

[01:00:03] And I was really worried about what we should be doing. And here he's so tiny. And she said, "You should go ahead and get the tests," because she had had an experience with a family whose baby I had a heart defect. And it was, you know, if they had known they would have done some things differently.

[01:00:21] And you know, when something like that happens with a brand new newborn, you just don't know, it could be any number of things. So they transferred us to Mount Sinai Manhattan. And he went through a battery of tests, which was really difficult on this tiny newborn. Thankfully they allowed me to keep nursing him.

[01:00:39] But I was basically living in his PICU room. And I was in a chair, so I had to sleep in a chair a couple of days after giving birth. That was difficult. And he developed jaundice and then that extended our stay. He had to be in the lights and all of that.

[01:00:55] And thankfully after all of that testing and everything, which all came back negative, what they determined was that, in some cases, apparently babies' liver has to make a switch from being in utero, when it's connected through the mother's liver system to working on its own. And it's kind of a reversal apparently postnatal that usually happens in most children automatically. In his case, for reasons that they don't know, and this is, I guess, when this happens, they don't really know why it happens. His liver didn't make the switch. And so it wasn't processing blood sugar correctly. And although he was nursing, he wasn't getting the blood sugar nutrients properly. And so he had a blood sugar crash. That's what caused his stopping breathing and the seizure.

[01:01:42] When they put the glucose line into him in the ER that apparently triggered his liver to start working correctly. But the jaundice was also due to the fact that his liver had not been working correctly from the beginning. And that was partly why that happened. So this was quite a shock to find out.

[01:02:02] I didn't know that this could even happen in newborns. And in this case, it was very clear to me that had we not been watching him when this happened, he could have died. If it had happened at night, we would not have-- he made no sound. So it was very clear to me that we were being watched over and that the Lord knew what was happening and that we were watching him and really paying attention to these very small symptoms that he had been, you know, just the fact that he seemed sleepier than normal and that he was kind of twitching in a funny way.

[01:02:35] That was, those were the only symptoms that his blood sugar was dipping too low. There's little that newborns can show. So it was concerning to me to realize this was a possibility, but one of the things that I was thankful that all of the doctors assured me of was that none of this had had anything to do with his home birth.

[01:02:54] They said this happens in cases. We don't know why it happens. But we do not regularly check baby's blood sugar at the hospital. And you would have already been home. If you'd had him at the hospital, he would have done just as well as he did with the midwife. He would have, you know, scored high in the APGAR, and we would've sent you home and this would have still happened at the same time as it did.

[01:03:16] So it would not have been caught in a hospital setting. But you know, were we to have another child, I would have definitely had them check the blood sugar just to see. That's not something that's normally done, but given that that happened... What we ended up finding out later was that I had actually developed some auto-immune issues and some of which were connected with my liver.

[01:03:38] I had some health problems that started right after his birth that had been happening, but I didn't realize they were happening. And I think it's most likely that that was what caused the problem that it was my liver that was an issue. And he had adjusted to that in utero. And that may be why his liver didn't make the switch.

[01:03:57] Lisa: I had wondered that. Cause I knew you had said you seemed to have some liver issues. And so when you were sharing this with me, I was like, "Huh, I wonder if there's a link."

[01:04:04] Linnea: Yeah, I did much more reading and research once I learned that about myself, I didn't know that I was having those issues. I just was having these other health problems and then it turned out that my liver was really an issue and I did some more reading and research and it really confirmed that that can be a connection. And that was actually the reason why we didn't have more children after that because my health issues were increasing and the fact that it was probably a factor in this happening to him was scary.

[01:04:31] And we didn't want that to happen again. But thankfully he is very healthy 11 year old, has never shown any sign that this happened to him in terms of you know, a detriment to his health. Thankfully, he was not without oxygen for long at all, because I was giving him mouth to mouth almost immediately.

[01:04:50] And the hospital was so close and there was much to be thankful for. But it was traumatic days in there, especially after this wonderful home birth, then we ended up in the hospital in a way that we did not expect. But again, we were very thankful. And it was difficult a little when we came home with him and had to, you know, go to sleep and not have him be monitored.

[01:05:15] But the entire time he was in the hospital, they had him monitored because they were checking very carefully to see if anything was going to go up and down with his blood sugar, his oxygen levels. And he was rock solid the whole time. There was never any sign of problem. So that was helpful to me when we came home that he, you know, that all that monitoring is difficult as it had been to go through was a confirmation that things were working correctly.

[01:05:43] So we were able to sleep and he was a good sleeper and a good eater. Thankfully those things were not terribly affected by this experience. So, you know, there were ways in which he had to have antibiotics and other things like that because they just didn't know if there was an infection. They didn't know what was happening.

[01:06:01] So until they could figure it out, they kind of threw everything at him. And so there were ways in which we tried to be really careful with sort of helping rebuild his gut and things like that. But he breastfed for a long time and, and he's a very healthy boy.

[01:06:17] Lisa: Well, thank God that you trusted your instincts and that you had a care provider, a midwife who validated your instincts and your wisdom as a parent, because a lot of our medical system, as you know, doesn't affirm that.

[01:06:35] Linnea: Yeah, no. And honestly, when I called her that day, I was really doubting myself and I was sort of thinking if she tells me, "Oh, don't worry about it. It's fine." That I would just sort of take that as a sign that I was being over reactionary or something, but that's not what she said. She said, "I looked at him, he looked great this morning, but you're his mom. You need to trust your instincts." And that was the kind of the thing I needed to keep paying attention to that voice in my head that was saying, "Something's not right."

[01:07:11] But, you know, I had no idea it was anything as serious as it was, but I'm so thankful. And I think, in Bronwyn's case, her situation with the nursing was less dramatic than this, but it was another situation where I had been told things were okay. And I just felt like they weren't.

[01:07:30] And I just felt like, even though. You're getting to know your newborn. It's not like you've had weeks of time with them, but I just felt like there were changes happening that didn't match the little bit I knew of them so far. So yeah, I guess the trusting yourself and taking that intuition seriously, I think, is something that new mothers should really do.

[01:07:51] And if you can't find a provider or a professional who will take that seriously then, find another one who will. Because the professionals who helped me--the lactation consultant and then of course, the doctors with Matteo, you know, they did take it seriously and it turned out to be, there was really something there.

[01:08:14] Yeah. And with your first experience, it seems so obvious that we need to build into our standard of care, lactation support. In-home lactation support soon after birth in those first five days. Yeah, because. There's a lot of things that can happen, like happened to Bronwyn.

[01:08:34] Right. And it's not as simple as does your baby know how to latch or not. That sort of gets to be the focus, but you know, some babies are tongue-tied and some babies. I mean, there's all these different things that can be kind of subtle. And with both of my children, the time in the hospital or in Matteo's case, the home birth time, the time immediately after birth, none of those problems showed up.

[01:08:56] Until just another day or two and that other day or two is once you're home. And so if there isn't a way to have that support or have that check-in, I think a lot of things can get lost in those critical days. So, yes. Yeah. I think just a little bit more knowledge. I wished for in Bronwyn's case, for example, that they had just caught the non-nutritive suck in the hospital because we were asking them to look at it and she was crying and was acting hungry. But just giving her formula would not have solved that problem. I mean, she would have been less hungry, but we wouldn't have figured out what the problem was. So yeah, a little more knowledge and just a little more attention to that I think makes a big difference.

[01:09:43] Lisa: Recently we had another mother share her baby's birth story, actually with the same midwife and she was reflecting on the loss of her mother. Now she had lost her mother a bit more recently than you did when you became a mother, but she was talking about how nonlinear grief is and how much this transition into motherhood took her by surprise in terms of how heavy the grief came on. Do you have any reflections on that aspect for you and your journey?

[01:10:18] Linnea: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that happens with grief is that as you go through your life, you encounter sort of all these different milestones, but also as you come to the different ages that your parent was or, you know, different kinds of grief, but in my case of my parent, you start to have sort of new understanding of who they were as a person. And how your relationship with them could have changed if you had had that time together. Certainly for me, I think I said at the beginning too, but you know, my mother was she was kind of ahead of her time in terms of, of thinking about birthing and how she did unmedicated with all of her children at a time when it was much less common and kind of had to fight a little bit more in hospital settings to get them to pay attention to what she was wanting to do. And so I remember her talking about those things when I was a child and just talking about how important that experience was for her. And it really gave me, I think it gave me the perspective, even though I didn't end up doing the exact same thing she did in terms of like labor technique.

[01:11:29] I came into it with a perspective of, I want to know as much as I can about this. I know this is a natural experience. I know my body can do this. I want to, you know empower my body to do this. I want to have people around me that think that way about it and don't treat pregnancy like a disease.

[01:11:47] You know, I just, I started off with that perspective. And that really came from her. But it was so hard to not be able to talk with her about all of these things that I was learning and very hard to not have her there when I was in labor and to know my children. I named my daughter Bronwyn after her.

[01:12:07] And one of the reasons I did that was that I wanted Bronwyn to have a connection to her grandmother. And to want to seek that out for herself, you know as she got older sort of sharing a name and knowing that it was because of how close I was to my mother, that I wanted her to also have her name.

[01:12:30] So there's no question that in parenting, the loss of her has sort of hit me in new ways and just made me more aware both of what I'm thankful for-- the time that I had with her, but also you know, made me wish so much that I could have had the experience of her being a grandmother.

[01:12:53] And also just interacting with her more as an adult, having these experiences myself. So I think, and, you know, I was thankful my aunt was able to come and be with us. And that was something that she had made a promise to my mom about when my mom was dying, that she would do everything she could to help us.

[01:13:14] And she really has fulfilled that. And I've been so thankful for that because there are very few people, at least for me you know, the time around birth and after birth, you're so vulnerable. And it's not a time you want to be playing host to someone or concerned about how clean your houses or any of those things.

[01:13:31] You need somebody who you just feel completely comfortable with. And there aren't that many people other than my mom that I feel that way about, but my aunt I do. And I was so thankful for that. So it's been a process for me of both coming to appreciate more my mother and the things I learned from her, even though they were long before I experienced them myself, and also to experience sort of the journey of understanding the ways in which that even not having her there, I could still benefit from that and benefit from the love of other people who were in my family and knew her. So, yeah, it continues to be something that I grapple with. And as my children get older and I struggle with issues, you know, at these ages and I wish so much I could talk with her about those things and that she could know them. But I also continue to think in my own parenting so much about choices that she made in her parenting that have continued to really teach and affect the choices that I make.

[01:14:42] So I've realized that what we teach our children sort of throughout their lives are things that may stick with them in ways we don't necessarily expect. Cause they really have for me.

[01:14:55] Lisa: Thank you for sharing that. Well, is there anything that you haven't gotten to share that you would like to share before we start to wrap things up?

[01:15:03] Linnea: I'm trying to remember. I think I said, but I did want to just reiterate that in my case with that second baby with labor being so different I talked to Kristen, my midwife about it afterwards and I said, "You know, if I have another baby, is it going to be like five minutes?"

[01:15:21] Lisa: Don't even hire a care provider.

[01:15:22] Linnea: I know. And she said, " You really can't anticipate it." She said, "Sometimes third babies in my experience do something totally different from the others, you know?"

[01:15:30] Lisa: Yeah, I've always heard that third baby's a wild card.

[01:15:34] Linnea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows why, but, you know, she said, "it's not that surprising that the second one is faster than the first, but this was particularly fast, but you know, again, your body was preparing itself for labor in ways we didn't realize." But I just was, I think that Matteo. If I'd been trying to get to the hospital, I think Matteo might've been born in a cab or something, you know? I mean, it just would've been such a stressful thing. By the time I knew that I was in serious labor, it was kind of too late to go anywhere. So I was really thankful that we had a plan, you know, we had to kind of hurry it up. If I did it again, I would have that tub filled up a little sooner.

[01:16:13] But it was, it was a great experience to be able to do that in a way that didn't involve hospital care. But was still very careful. I mean, you know, I felt Kristen's expertise and all of the, you know, checks she did and everything were if anything more detailed than what I experienced in the hospital.

[01:16:33] So I felt very supported and it was just, it was a wonderful experience. And, you know, the hospital experience afterwards was difficult and I sort of worried that it would take away from the home birth experience. But once I got enough distance, I was able to look back and sort of see the difference and just really still be able to appreciate that.

[01:16:56] Lisa: And I'm glad you got the reassurance that it wouldn't have made a difference where you gave birth, because I imagine that makes a big difference,

[01:17:04] Linnea: Yes, that was very important to me. And I was very concerned. Of course when it, you know, when everything happened, we didn't have any idea what was going on, but that was something I was asking kind of throughout. Like, "I just want you to be completely upfront with me. Is there some way we could have prevented this? Would this have been caught in a hospital?" And every single doctor I talked to said, very clearly, "This is completely unrelated to his birth. And this would not have been caught. This is not something we look for. We don't test blood sugar in newborns, unless there's some other reason." And I had done, like I said this before, but I had done the blood sugar tests. I'd done the glucose tests and stuff when I was pregnant, I was not having blood sugar issues myself. So it wasn't like I was, you know, skipping out on those kinds of things either.

[01:17:52] I had done all of that. And so yeah, they confirmed that was very important to me because that was obviously a real weight on my mind. Was there something we could have done to keep this from happening? So it was both comforting, but also a little disconcerting when they said, "No, this just happens sometimes. And we don't, you know," It also made me realize that, you know, some of the SIDS cases could be this. It is something that I've wanted people to know just that this does happen in some cases it's obviously not happening all the time, but it can happen. And so again, if you notice that things seem a little strange with your baby, take it seriously.

[01:18:35] Lisa: Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, thank you so much. It's been really nice to hear even more details than I've heard before about both of your baby's births. Again, everybody listened to Linnea when she talks about trust in your instincts, you are your baby's own best advocate.

[01:18:53] Linnea: It really is true. You don't have to be a medical expert to know something about your own child.