Today, we’re excited to have a local colleague on the show to share her first baby’s birth story. Simone Toomer is a Brooklyn-based Black mother of two as well as a perinatal professional who wears many hats -- she’s a doula, childbirth educator, sleep educator, lactation counselor and soon-to-be lactation consultant. At this point, Simone is mostly focusing on nursing support, serving as a leader for La Leche League International and for Chocolate Milk Cafe, a now-national organization that specifically provides nursing support groups for nursing parents who identify with the African diaspora. In addition to sharing her first baby’s uncomplicated birth story in a hospital in which she shows up pretty much just in time to push and give birth, Simone will also share a bit about the great work she’s doing to improve breastfeeding outcomes for Black families.
Episode Topics:
Simone’s work as a birth professional
Going to birth classes with good friend
Getting a doula through the By My Side program
Labor started during Hurricane Sandy
Born on due date 10/30
Lying down to try to get labor to not start during hurricane
Contractions starting in middle of night and progress pretty quickly
Having hot flashes in between contractions
3:30-4am tells partner she needs to go to Methodist Hospital
Diarrhea & vomiting
Taking detours due to downed power lines and tree branches
Lifting bum off seat in car ride
Doula meeting them at triage
Got random doctor in triage, 9cm dilated but water is still intact
Having to sign too many papers, being told they’re going to break her water
She starts to bear down
She was pushing intuitively, despite their directed pushing
2nd degree tear, likely due to directed pushing and being on back
6 week visit - handed her lots of formula
Rationale for choosing Black care providers
Breastfeeding first baby for 3 years
Working with La Leche League starting 2014
Chocolate Milk Cafe -- monthly breastfeeding support groups Simone leads, just went national with several in NYC area
Resources:
Simone & Lisa chat about nursing support during the pandemic on IGtv
Chocolatemilkcafe.com, @Chocolatemilkcafe, @chocolatemilknynj -- nursing support for folks who identify with the African diaspora (went national in 2020)
Natal - another podcast that shares Black birthing stories (IG @natalstories)
Other Black birthing stories on this podcast:
Sponsor links:
Natural Breastfeeding online course at discounted rate (or learn more here)
Pack for Your Best Birth Checklist & option for free email course
*Disclosure: Links on this page to products are affiliate links; I will receive a small commission on any products you purchase at no additional cost to you.
Interview Transcript
Lisa: Welcome to the Birth Matters podcast. Today I have with me, Simone Toomer, a local birth professional colleague who does so many different things. Welcome Simone.
[00:00:10] Simone: Hi, everyone. Happy to be here.
[00:00:12] Lisa: Would you please first just tell us all the various roles you play within the, you know, birth and prenatal and postpartum world.
[00:00:21] Simone: Sure of course. So I started off becoming a birth and a postpartum doula. I did a joint training with Doula Trainings International in 2014. And then that same month, I actually did the lactation counselor class and took that exam and became a lactation counselor. I was already kind of in the lactation field as a mom, a nursing mom and being, a La Leche League member.
[00:00:42] And then soon after became a La Leche League leader. I've gone on to do placenta encapsulation, which I don't really do anymore; my focus is really lactation. I am Lamaze certified for childbirth education. I do infant sleep education. Because I think it's really important for parents to know normal newborn and infant development in relation to our everyday life, right. And what expectations to have and normalizing what that first year really looks like in regards to sleep, which is so intertwined with, of course, nursing and feeding and you know, all of those things. I think those are all my hats.
[00:01:17] I also lead Chocolate Milk Cafe, which is specifically for Black women around breastfeeding support. So La Leche League is, you know, a breastfeeding support -- it's international and Chocolate Milk Cafe is more--now we're actually, we've gone national, but it's very specific to Black women on the journey.
[00:01:32] Lisa: I was looking at Instagram. It looked like it was about three weeks ago--when we're recording this, we're recording this toward the end of October. But that's so exciting. I'm really excited about that effort. And I look forward to maybe your sharing more about that after you've shared your at least one birth story, maybe both of them; we'll see how we track in terms of timing. Anything else you wanted to share about...
[00:01:52] Simone: That is all. Really, I think naturally I've just become a birth justice advocate, you know, I started off really just because of my own birth story with my first and just having a passion for education, and educating expecting families.
[00:02:06] And now it's just turned more into advocacy and social justice, birth justice, especially in the climate, the birth climate around Black women birthing, you know, and the United States.
[00:02:18] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And since this is a podcast and people can't see you, I don't know if you mentioned you're a Black woman.
[00:02:23] Simone: I am a Black woman, yes I am.
[00:02:27] Lisa: So, I'm so grateful that you're doing that work. We need more Black birth workers. You're able to support people so expertly and really advocate for people very effectively.
[00:02:36] So I'm very, very excited about the work that you're doing and that's a big reason I wanted to have you on the podcast. But it's, you know, I was realizing that with local birth colleagues, I often haven't heard anybody's birth stories. And so I'm so excited to not only know you professionally, but now to kind of start to hear a little bit about your personal journey and maybe toward the end, if you want to, you can speak a little bit about, you know, was it your birth experiences that caused you to want to do this work?
[00:03:06]But we'll save that for a little bit later for now. Would you like to go into a little bit about your first pregnancy and your, oh, and also share how old are your two children?
[00:03:17] Simone: I have a two-and-a-half-year-old boy, and my daughter will be eight this Friday, actually.
[00:03:23] Lisa: Oh, my goodness. And in these pandemic times, you guys shifted, as many have, to homeschooling?
[00:03:29] Simone: Yes, we did. And it's exciting
[00:03:32] Lisa: Fellow homeschooler, I'm so excited. We've had such a huge influx of homeschoolers during these times. Understandably. It makes a lot of sense.
[00:03:39] Simone: Yeah, but New York is so like, feels like the right place to be with that also. Absolutely.
[00:03:44] Lisa: Yeah. It's such a big thriving community. Yeah. I'm grateful for it. All right. Great. So two and a half and about eight. So in two days, happy birthday. Great. So with your first pregnancy, can you just talk a little bit about anything to note about the pregnancy, different ways that you prepared for this big journey into parenthood? Did you take classes, how did you decide who your care provider was going to be?
[00:04:13] Just any of those things you'd like to highlight?
[00:04:15] Simone: Yeah. So, when I was pregnant with my first, I remember thinking like, "my cycle is late and my breasts are really tender. This is different." But I, I think I've always been really in tune with my body. So I knew like something was going on. So I did find a local doctor.
[00:04:33]They were, the practice was a Black practice, which I really wanted. And my care there, I didn't find any issue with it. It was like the typical, you know, you might wait for 30 to 45 minutes in the office and the appointment is probably like 10 minutes long, if that. Right. But then I also knew that I wanted to go more holistic and natural in my birth journey. And I also had a good college friend who was also pregnant. Our kids are like three weeks apart. So we both found doulas through the, By My Side birth support program, which is a local doula support program with the Department of Health, that services neighborhoods of high infant and maternal mortality.
[00:05:17] It is parts of Bed Stuy, Bushwick, Brownsville & East New York. And through that program, she and I also took the eight-week course, a childbirth education course. I remember it was two hours every week and we would meet up and it was really fun. It was really empowering. What I like about a weekly childbirth ed is it allows information to be given in a very slow process, open dialogue, you know, couples coming together to really process information together. You're learning from each other. You're able to ask questions and then the following week go back and kind of piggyback off of that material and keep that conversation rolling, as opposed to like perhaps a three or four hour one-stop-shop. Birth is a really, you know, intense, complicated, like so many emotions go into it.
[00:06:12] Right. And it's more than the physical, it's emotional, spiritual, mental. And sometimes I think in New York because of the hustle and bustle, right, we're like, "we need to fit this quick class into our schedule." Right. But when we go to a well-paced class, we really get to weave out the material and see really how this is going to impact us and really understand the body, the physiology of birth, the emotional, the mental, the interventions, newborn.
[00:06:41] Like there's so much that I think if we stay on the surface, we don't get. And I found that this eight-week class really, really prepared me. Yeah.
[00:06:51] Lisa: Can I just chime in really quick, Simone? I am so thankful that you're highlighting that because one of the surprising benefits of the pandemic times and going to virtual classes has been a shift.
[00:07:06] I've seen an enormous shift in my clients signing up for the longer 15-hour, six class series. I think it's because in each sitting, they're spending less time on Zoom whereas pre pandemic, the intensives, the 12-hour three class done in two weekends, you know, sitting for four hours for a class.
[00:07:29] I mean, and it was, you know, it was the same content, but much more rushed and much less time to process and assimilate the information and discuss it. And I'm so grateful that people are signing up more for the series that I think is really better. Like you're saying you need time. This is an enormous transformation into Parenthood and I think too often when we're pregnant for the first time, we don't realize that, you know, we don't realize what a transformative process and what an important process it is to protect.
[00:08:03] Simone: Yeah.
[00:08:03] Lisa: Yeah. So, anyway, thank you for sharing that.
[00:08:05] Simone: No, that's an interesting shift, but a great one, very beneficial to the birthing families. With the more classes I took, the more, I was like, I definitely want to do this unmedicated. I definitely want to breastfeed the good friend that I was, that I took the class with, and we ironically, like, we now have multiple kids and you know, we're still, of course really close. She went for a home birth, but I wasn't there yet. Right.
[00:08:32] But I remember, expressing my birth plans to the practice I was in, they were two male doctors and a female. And I remember saying, I don't want an epidural. I have a birth plan. And they, and I remember clearly it's 2012. Why would you do that to yourself? You know, it's a, it's an age of modern medicine.
[00:08:52] And then I saw another provider, maybe the following appointment, and she was a female and she said, I have five kids. And I took an epidural with every one of them. And I thought to myself, well, what did that have to do with me? You know, and the way she described it was, you know, contractions can be really painful.
[00:09:11] Birth could be really intense and I don't want you to panic. And the baby's heart rate starts to decel and we have an emergency. And, you know, at the time I was not a doula, but it just the language and the conversation didn't seem right to me. Right. It really felt like I'm taking the steps to make an informed decision here.
[00:09:28] And I'm equipping myself and my partner. To really have this experience we want. And of course we all want a happy, healthy baby. Right. But I trusted, like I'm a low-risk woman. Right. And why will things start to just randomly go left? And so I didn't push back, but I knew like, okay, I'm going to labor at home as long as possible with my doula.
[00:09:51] We are going to go to the hospital last minute. And ideally it all works out. That's really how I approached it. And I also remember, you know, just also wanting to breastfeed and... in hindsight, you do, unfortunately, because of everything around us telling us, oh, we may need to supplement, or we might need that c-section or birth is so painful we might need this epidural that, you know, my husband, my mom, like people did come to me with like, "well, you don't want to be too close minded. You may just want to get formula just in case," or, "you know, you don't know what's going to happen. So just be prepared for like quote unquote the worst type of thing." And nothing, honestly, in my gut and made me worry.
[00:10:33] And I don't know what that was, but I think it really impacted my positive in-hospital birth experience. And I think it's important to know with the right support and education, you can have the birth you want within a hospital system. And I think that's all like from a doula and midwives. I know some people think like a doula you're just all crunchy and, you know, granola and stuff, but you can have the birth you want, you know, within a hospital system.
[00:11:00] Lisa: Absolutely. And I love something that I think I'm hearing Simone is that you. You said earlier that you're really tuned into your body. It sounds like you're also really tuned into your inner wisdom and intuition in a way that really helped you make informed choices. Am I reading that right?
[00:11:20] Simone: Yeah. Yeah. I would say so.
[00:11:22] And you know, I will say, When I, when I do share my second birth story, when that time comes, what changed with me, you know, five, five-and-a-half-year difference is actually, as I got older, I got more anxious, which is ironic, given the, you know, my choice for the second one. But there was still something in me was this was like, "it's going to be okay."
[00:11:41] You know? And, what was funny too, which I didn't know was that my care providers, they were all OB. Then they had midwives working at Methodist and I believe Kingsbrook hospital. and I did not know at the time, but their midwives attend the vaginal birth and all of them attended the cesareans. So I didn't get any of them at the time of the birth either, but it was appealing to me that they did have midwives, even though it was a hospital setting.
[00:12:04] So I also remember taking like a Saturday morning with the midwives to do a childbirth ed also with them. So my daughter was born during Hurricane Sandy. And so I remember the storm starting and thinking, "Oh my gosh. I cannot move. I can't do much because if I do anything, her, her due date was October 3rd.
[00:12:31] She was actually born on her due date and this, you know, it was like, "Oh my gosh. If I try to like busy myself around the house and I'm going to go into labor because I'm standing up and I'm walking and I'm doing all these things that help labor come on." So I actually remember lying in bed for two days, nervous to move.
[00:12:48] Just watching the weather. Right. Cause it was just like a storm outside and doing the minimal movement. Right. Which ironically could have worked to make labor happen. Cause I was just relaxed in bed. Right.
[00:13:02] Lisa: You never know how that's gonna play out, right?
[00:13:05] Simone: Like, you know, I'm in bed relaxed, totally comfortable.
[00:13:09] Just thinking like, "Baby. Just hold on tight a little bit longer. We can't go out there right now."
[00:13:14] Lisa: And you're based in Brooklyn, right? I don't know if that came up.
[00:13:16] Simone: I am in Brooklyn. Yes. So I'm about 15 minutes from Methodist hospital where I chose to give birth. And it was, we remember hurricane Sandy, it was one of the worst hurricanes, right?
[00:13:30] Lisa: Obliterated the Rockaways, right?
[00:13:32] Simone: Yes. That was the one. Yeah.
[00:13:34] Like people lost their homes, floods. And so the Monday night, the 29th, the storm had calmed, there was still some wind happening and I went to bed and I woke up at two o'clock and I had to use the bathroom and then I came and laid back down.
[00:13:58] And 20 minutes later, I got up with a cramp and walked, like just paced at the bedside and then laid back down. And then 20 minutes later it happened again. And eventually I was like, Oh, okay. This might be something right. And my contractions, actually every hour, it halfed. So like two to three, it was 20 minutes apart, three to four was 10 minutes apart.
[00:14:26] Like it, it progressed really, really fast. And I remember waking my husband up and my sister was also with me and she was in the living room and he walked down and was like, "we think Simone's in labor." And I just like, got really quiet went in and out of the bathroom a lot. Got on my birth ball in the bedroom.
[00:14:45] And I remember sitting on the birth ball having hot flashes. So I was taking off clothes and putting on clothes and taking off clothes and putting on clothes in between contractions and around like, four 30, five o'clock. I was like, "we have to go to the hospital." Like just something shifted in me that said we had to go to the hospital.
[00:15:05]I was experiencing contractions in my lower back. So I was on the birth ball, bending forward, rocking, back and forth. We have called my doula, but of course, because of the storm, we were like, do you come here? Do we labor at home for a little bit? Do we go to the hospital? But once again, intuitively, I was just like, something has shifted.
[00:15:24]I can't remember if I was spotting, but my, my waters was still intact for sure. I was vomiting already and I had diarrhea. Which is all great signs now as a doula, we're like, "yay!"
[00:15:35] Lisa: I always say in class birth is a little masochistic or a lot masochistic, and that one seemed like a negative or, you know, sick sign is actually, "yay!" Feels especially cruel during this time of the pandemic, right?
[00:15:49] Simone: You know, it's funny because so many birthing people I hear they're like, "Oh no, I don't want to poop in front of anybody or, or even how do I know if I'm pushing right?" And you know, and it's kind of like, if we see poop, We're like, yes.
[00:15:59] You know? So, I got dressed, my husband went to go get the car, but because of the hurricane, a lot of wires and trees were all over the streets. So we had to reroute quite a bit to go to Methodist, even though it's a very quick drive. And when we got there, I first off, I remember sitting in the car in the front seat and holding onto the handle at the ceiling, like right at the side.
[00:16:25] Every time I had a contraction, I would lift up and move my hip forward yet nobody can see me, but I'm actually demonstrating what I would do. And it just felt like I had to give room for something. Right. So I'm there,
[00:16:40] Lisa: You're saying this was in the car, right? I did the exact same thing. I could not bear the bumps and things on my pelvic floor. It's like, "Ow!"
[00:16:51] Simone: I'm there like contorting in the front seat because it just feels like something is happening and I need to make space and of course be more comfortable, right? We get to the hospital, it's around six o'clock, six 30. It's like things happen. I don't remember. I get out of the car.
[00:17:09] I remember sitting in a wheelchair, then I remember triage. I don't remember much in between. And I remember my doula meeting us there and the doctor. First off, it's after Sandy. So my doctor didn't make it. I got a random doctor that was already there and lights are kind of on kind of off. And he examines me.
[00:17:27] He goes, you're nine centimeters. Oh my gosh.
[00:17:30] Lisa: Wow.
[00:17:31] Simone: Right. And I was like, okay. You know, but my water still intact. So they bring me to the labor room and they say, "so we're going to break your bags of water now. And you might decrease in dilation if we do this," which I like, I don't understand that, but he's like, you might, it might be some time basically.
[00:17:53] He's saying he's like, we're going to break your back of water and we're going to come back in a little bit. Right.
[00:17:57] So I remember
[00:17:58] Lisa: At 9 centimeters? What? That is bizarre.
[00:18:03] Simone: Every time I think about this, I'm like, "what was he thinking?" So they break my bag of water. I remember everyone leaving my sister, my husband. They start to go to the, they're like walking to the vending machine. They want to get a snack. And within minutes I'm like bearing down and you hear right. [bearing down]
[00:18:20] Lisa: Can I ask you one quick question before you go into the pushing?
[00:18:26] Simone: Sure.
[00:18:26] Lisa: When they said we're going to break your waters. Did you feel like that was mandatory?
[00:18:33] Simone: Yes, I did. So a few things happen before they brought my bag of water, which they had me sign all these papers.
[00:18:39] So I'm in the middle of contractions. Laying down on my back with a nurse to the right of me with papers and I can't even focus and I tend to labor internally, which I think a lot of us do, but I'm like, my eyes are closed. I don't want to hear you. I don't want to look at you. And I just remember just like quickly scribbling my name.
[00:19:00] Cause you know, papers needed to be signed. And I remember my doula looking at me when they said they had to break my bag of water, but not necessarily saying anything per se, it, you know, it was my decision. And I thought, I did always think like your bag of water has to be broken to give birth. So sure.
[00:19:19] I'm nine centimeters. I'm like there let's break it. And so he breaks it, they leave and I start to bear down. Immediately pretty immediately. And within two or three pushes my doula's out the door, like "guys come back, you have to come." So nobody even made it to the vending machine, but, but I remember the doctor go, "are you sure you're a first-time mom, you sure you that you've never done this before,
[00:19:44] Lisa: because it went so quickly.
[00:19:46] Simone: Yeah, yeah. And I remember laying on my back and them directing me how to push, but I really was pushing intuitively, I didn't have an epidural. I had no Pitocin. I just had the monitors on me at the time.
[00:20:03] And. She came out at like seven something. So within an hour of being at the hospital, she came out and I did tear. I had a second-degree tear, which I think comes more from, even though I was. Spontaneously pushing with the nurses. And once the doctor came in, they directed me on how to push, which we know what evidence now says about spontaneous pushing versus directed pushing.
[00:20:30]And with my second birth, I could compare that pushing stage and what happened and I'll share it another time, but it is, we do know that, and it shows when you're listening to your body more intuitively you have a less chance of tearing as well as depending on the position you're in and so forth.
[00:20:47] When my daughter came out, they put her directly on my chest and the nurse that was there, also lactation consultant came and she latched immediately. And we started our breastfeeding journey, which I nursed her for a very long time. Because of the hurricane, I also had a private room. Nobody was in my room, which worked to our benefit.
[00:21:10] I was able to take the class. And it's funny because I actually during COVID worked that Methodist, you know, as a doula and a lactation counselor, which is kind of like a 360, which was really nice to just be on the floor, you know? One of the lactation consultants that was the, I remember her. from my birthing journey and lactation journey.
[00:21:30] And I, I went on to like really have no postpartum issues, you know, six weeks later, you know, you go to your postpartum visit. They're like, "Hey, you're healing, fine birth control. You're good." And they, you know, that's it. And yeah, and I, I breastfed and no problem. I remember though, at my six-week visit, they kinda like gave me a bunch of formula, like just have this just in case.
[00:21:52] And this just all goes back to like, I knew I didn't want an epidural. I knew I wanted to breastfeed. My family was very supportive of me breastfeeding, but if there was any doubt or any mixed messages, we could so easily be steered in another direction, not to say things don't go off plan sometimes, right.
[00:22:11] Or there may not be reasons why we need an intervention. But I think once again, going back to knowledge, informed decision-making, advocacy, right? Trusting the process, which can be so hard sometimes. We can really be easily and not purposely, no, one's trying to like purposely persuade you per se or quote unquote, damage your journey to the birth you want.
[00:22:33] But we just it's so easy to just take in everything and just like be there and just be like, okay, I'll just, just in case type of thing. And we do know having formula on hand also. Increases your chance of using it too, you know, when you are like I'm breastfeeding and I'm going to stick through it and access support, then you have more of a chance to also reach your breastfeeding goals.
[00:22:56] Lisa: Yeah. So often when people are coming to class and I ask a lot of questions on the intake form and, ask about, you know, how they're planning to feed. Their baby. And, and so often I get people saying my mother and my sister, actually just this week, someone said my mother and my sister were unable to breastfeed.
[00:23:19] So I'm really concerned that I'm not going to be able to. And my encouragement to them routinely very consistently and frequently is it's likely more likely than not. It was a lack of support that caused them to be, you know, unable to breastfeed. So, yeah, it's we just need that support, right? And so one reason that I'm so excited about the work you're doing,
[00:23:48] Simone: No, we, I mean, you make a good point and I laugh and I usually say no one wants to be Googling a lactation consultant at 2:00 AM, right?
[00:23:55] Like, no, like just be prepared. You may not need one, but just have some support lined up. Yeah, whether it's a support group or a professional to just assess the situation if needed. And sometimes it's just like, "Hey, you are doing so great. Look at your baby, gaining so beautiful, beautifully from your milk."
[00:24:13] And other times it is tweaking and positioning and latch. Right. but we do know those early day supports really impacts initiation of breastfeeding and duration of breastfeeding.
[00:24:23] Lisa: Right. And it's a lot more on the other side of it when people are experientially going through it and trying to learn how to do this. It's so often I get this feedback of like, it's so much more complicated than I realized it would be. People just think, well, it should come naturally. It should be very easy. And yet it's not as, so, I mean, it's. And for some people, it is yay for them, but I'm not one of them breastfeeding was challenging for me.
[00:24:49] And for, you know, the vast majority of people who lactate is, it can be very challenging.
[00:24:54] Simone: And I mean, I, you know, I'm actually happy that my second breastfeeding experience was very different. And so I empathize and I have the knowledge of what it's like to have a really easy quote-unquote journey and then a very complicated, stressful one, which only adds to my passion for this work, you know?
[00:25:12] Cause I know what it's like to feel like it's all falling apart.
[00:25:16] Lisa: Hm. Well, before we talk about the work you're doing to support lactating birthing folks, I would love to, I wanted to ask you a question about just backing up a little bit to the birth. And, and prenatal prep as well. You mentioned that you chose that you preferred to work with a Black doctor, is that right?
[00:25:37] Simone: Yes.
[00:25:38] Lisa: So I actually aired someone's birth story earlier in this season who also had that preference. And I asked her what guided, what caused that preference? I'd love to hear from you. You know your rationale. Yeah.
[00:25:53] Simone: And it's funny because also I think that showed the black midwife and my second, but I think reasons were different.
[00:25:59] I just, I, I feel like intuitively I just wanted a Black doctor. I just wanted someone that looked like me supporting me. I didn't. I think from the perspective of like, they know, you know, my journey or a little better understand this and understand that I just was like, I just want to be with a Black doctor.
[00:26:15] Lisa: Sure.
[00:26:16] Simone: And then I quickly changed of course, becoming a doula and being educated where my, my second decision in my birth practice was more so around I want to survive. I want to, you know, I want someone that's going to understand my birth journey. Understand me as a Black woman, support me as a Black birthing woman and so forth.
[00:26:37] And then also individualistic care.
[00:26:42] Lisa: With the other person who was sharing in her first pregnancy, she was aware of Black maternal mortality rates and the challenges in our U S maternal health care system. Were you aware of that with your first pregnancy?
[00:26:55] Simone: No, I wasn't.
[00:26:56] Lisa: Okay. It sounded like maybe you weren't.
[00:26:58] Yeah. Yeah. Many people aren't and that's a reason why I'm really wanting to on this podcast, just spread that awareness and equipped with resources, for support and finding great practitioners. So, thank you.
[00:27:11] Simone: But I will say the, By My Side doula support program, it does educate like through the prenatals, we have three prenatals where they do educate about what's happening amongst black communities. They educate also on like the difference in brain development for a baby from 37 weeks to 39 weeks. When we talk about early induction and Black women, right. Every prenatal visit is focused on a different type of education topic. And then also three to four postpartum visits also to really ensure you're getting the support for breastfeeding or however way you choose to feed your baby and postpartum recovery.
[00:27:45] And I think that's also a nice, that's really what helped me succeed with what I wanted. Yeah. Education and really just manifesting that.
[00:28:00] Lisa: Nice. And when you showed up to the hospital and you said it wasn't your doctor, I guess, was it a black doctor or was it not?
[00:28:06] Simone: It was an Indian doctor. Yes. Or, you know, East, East Asian,
[00:28:11] Lisa: Although you might've had your eyes closed so much at that point that you didn't even notice who was there...
[00:28:15] Simone: I did! I remember there was a man and I kind of remember how he looked.
[00:28:17] Right. But honestly, I'll say I never even thought about calling my doctor. Which he wouldn't have made it anyway, because it was Hurricane Sandy, but I didn't even think about calling my doctor. So when we got there, they did call him to let him know and he was like, okay. You know, there was no way he's making it to the hospital. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:37] Lisa: Right. Well, shifting back to the breastfeeding. do you want to share it all? You said you breastfed your, your first for a long time, right? So do you want to share a little bit, like how long, and did you have judgment around you or were people supportive? I'd love to hear about that.
[00:28:53] Simone: Sure. So I brought some of my daughter until about three years old. And it's considered extended nursing. You hear that a lot in the United States
[00:29:01] Lisa: Our silly culture!
[00:29:02] Simone: Right? But it's actually very normal for mammals to feed for, you know, the first few years of their life. There is never not a benefit to breast milk.
[00:29:12] I've had people like waxing my eyebrows and somehow we're talking about breastfeeding and they're like, well, you know, after six months that breast milk means nothing. Right. And I joke because I'm like, yeah, breastmilk changes, it's alive food, whether your child is teething, eating dirt, have a cold, right.
[00:29:30] It's changing every day to meet the needs of your baby nutritionally and also with antibodies. Right? And then also of course there's a comfort level to breastfeeding and just bonding that a baby wants with their mom. So I chose to feed for three years. My daughter actually was diagnosed with sickle cell anemia as an infant. And I think also subconsciously I, in my head, it was like, this is the best thing for her and her immune system, you know, and we've never had an issue and, you know, and I'm very, very appreciative and thankful for that. And she was in daycare around a year and a half. So by that time she was maybe nursing in the morning and sometimes not even that, but more so and night for comfort and to go to bed. She's a very independent and free-spirited child.
[00:30:12] So she would just come back to mommy for a little reassurance and then go on her way.
[00:30:16] Lisa: I love that. And, while you were doing that, were you attending La Leche League meetings?
[00:30:22] Simone: I was, I was. So, nobody like people were supportive in my family. My mom's side of the family's from the Caribbean. And for them, it was really normal to see breastfeeding.
[00:30:32] But once it hit a year, that's when people were like, "Really Simone?" And then my father's side of the family, I do remember very early them, like trying to get me, give me formula packets and like, "Oh, we're going to the mall. Just spring this in the, in the bag with you throw it in a bottle." And it was kinda like, no, it's easier for me to attach my baby to my breast. Thank you. You know, and I think, and there's this frustration and there's so many times I hear a parent express, you know, like I'm staying with my mother-in-law or whoever, and like, they're trying to be helpful. Of course they have no ill intentions, but they're constantly pushing, like, "let's give the baby cereal, let's give the baby formula, let's give some purees or something."
[00:31:15] So just going back into like standing firm in like, what you really want as a parent, I think could be really important and empowering too. And then also knowing and educating family members on other ways they can help, like everyone wants to give the baby a bottle. Right. They just want to feed the baby.
[00:31:32] Lisa: And it's fine. So true. People come to birth class and they're like, how soon can my partner give an overnight bottle? Yeah. It's like the burning question besides after, like when did we leave for the hospital in labor.
[00:31:43] Simone: And it's. And so it's also with that question, not quite understanding supply and demand like yeah, of course your, your partner can give a bottle, but you're going to need to be pumping.
[00:31:52] So you'd need to choose which is easier? Pumping or putting baby to the breast?
[00:31:56] Lisa: Totally. Yeah. I point that out.
[00:31:58] Simone: Then all of the great way the partner, our grandparent, our in-laws can help besides giving a bottle. Right. There's so many things that they could do where it's funny because everyone thinks about a bottle when they think about helping.
[00:32:11] Lisa: Yeah. One of the dads last season pointed out that it was this epiphany that he had early on with their newborn. He's like, there's nothing I can't do for the baby besides breastfeeding. This is amazing. It was so such an epiphany for him. He just was like, really, really jazzed by that.
[00:32:30] Simone: That's awesome, it's true. It's like have the nursing parent nurse and then take the baby and walk with them. Swaddle them. Babywear, you know, you could do so many things.
[00:32:43] Lisa: Yeah, that's wonderful. Great. Well, so do you want to share a little bit about the current work you're doing to support birthing families?
[00:32:52] Simone: For sure. So I did start off as a leader, probably in like 2014, 2015.
[00:32:57] It is an international group and I was doing the Bed Stuy location, but unfortunately, and I'm still doing it. The has definitely changed the way things look, but. Even with Bed Stuy, I was finding, I wasn't reaching as many Black families as I wanted. And in becoming a La Leche League Leader and a doula, I decided I wanted to become an International Board-Certified Lactation Consultant, very long name, but it's basically like the quote unquote "gold standard" of lactation.
[00:33:30] Right. Where you're practicing-- you can practice internationally, which I joke now, like if I ever want to leave the United States,
[00:33:36] Lisa: Depending on how the election goes...
[00:33:41] Simone: On my way out, right? But, and then. I also thought like I would be, my services could be more accessible and the shorter term's IBCLC. You do clinical hours, whether it's in a hospital or a pediatrician's office, you do a mix of education from the sciences to math, psychology, which I did in college. You have a mentor. So a really well-known mentor LaShanda Dandrich in Harlem is a black IBCLC. She's one of my mentors. I worked with Lea Rivera of Empire Lactation for a bit, and we still bounce off of each other.
[00:34:19] And so Lashanda has helped to bring Chocolate Milk Cafe into New York. Chocolate Milk Cafe is a breastfeeding support group for nursing parents who identify with the African diaspora. And we know that there are not many black IBCLCs right. We need more black IBCLCs, we need more Black midwives; Black families need more support, period.
[00:34:42] And so now after I, I believe I did that training in 2017 because I was pregnant. I remember that. And. Now we have monthly meetings, there's a Harlem location. There's a Brownsville location. There's a Newark location. I think there might be even two New Jersey locations. Then you guys could check out Chocolate Milk Cafe online.
[00:35:02] And we meet once a month for about an hour and a half breastfeeding support. Some people attend prenatally just to hear what's going on. And they know they might be considering breastfeeding, but they don't know how that's going to look. They want to make sure they have support. And then we also continue postpartum and we've had, you know, toddlers still on at a year, a year and a half. And ironically, besides breastfeeding, it just becomes a community. Like everybody wants a community after a baby to say, "Hey, that's normal. Don't worry about that." Or, "I tried this," and everyone's journey is so different that I think having multiple people to just bounce ideas off of and questions off of, and really just normalize what being a new parent looks like, right, is really, really important.
[00:35:46] Lisa: And I'm curious with Chocolate Milk Cafe, how is it just that there are so many of you leading groups that you're reaching out to your own communities? Or how, how is it being promoted?
[00:35:58] Simone: Yeah, so we have an Instagram page. Now we also have a Facebook page. We have a website, which just launched earlier this month. So those are like our main forms of advertisement and marketing. One of the IBCLCs is at meth--well, two of the IBCLCs actually at Methodist that I was working with during COVID are also leaders. So it's definitely something that we give to our Black patients, you know, on the postpartum unit.
[00:36:22] We, we've spoken to pediatricians. Lashanda actually works at a pediatric office in Harlem. So outside of like home visits, it's definitely a great resource for just ongoing support virtually.
[00:36:35] Lisa: And is there a specific hashtag I'm just curious if somebody wants, I mean, I know definitely go to chocolate milk cafe directly, but is there a hashtag that someone would want to, that would bring up the relevant information?
[00:36:48] I think about it, Chocolate Milk Cafe NY/NJ probably is like the, cause we started off with just New York, New Jersey, and now it's expanded.
[00:36:59] There's two separate Instagram accounts. Right. I noticed that
[00:37:02] Simone: It started off in Arkansas, with the midwife Hakima, Sista Hakima Payne -- really Mama Hakima, cause she's a mother. And just a midwife really noticing that her community needed support. Right. And what does it look like for black people to come together and have safe places to really talk about what's going on with themselves and their development and raising their kids in this community. And so we wanted to bring that here.
[00:37:26] And so it's just expanding right now. We're looking to expand to Queens and who knows what else more?
[00:37:33] Lisa: Yay! I like hearing that.
[00:37:34] Simone: Yeah. Yeah. You are in Queens! So it's really, it's taken off every month. We are hopping on virtually and people are looking forward to whatever, you know, we're chatting about and just that reassurance. And it is a blend of like breastfeeding support, but just like girlfriend time, that's really what it feels like.
[00:37:53] Lisa: It's so fantastic. We need community more than ever, but we always have needed it even pre pandemic. Right. And I feel like our culture is just way too individualistic and we need it really backfires on us when we enter into parenting. Yeah. I know, I asked you to spell, spell out. You don't need to chocolatemilkcafe.com is the website, right?
[00:38:15] When you Google it, it comes right up and you can, they're on Facebook, they're on Instagram, they have the website. So, I will also link to that URL and the Instagram handle on the show notes page. So listeners can find it there as well.
[00:38:31] Simone: Yes. I just feel like, it feels like a sense of returning back to the village where, like you said, we are and like this individualistic culture, and depending on where you are too, I find New York just feels more like that sometimes, you know?
[00:38:44] So, but we need community. We thrive off of community.
[00:38:47] Absolutely. Yeah. And by the time this episode airs, you and I will have done an IG TV or an IG live, I should say, which will then hopefully save properly as an IG TV video that listeners can go look at to get to know Simone better. And the work she's doing and learn more about breastfeeding.
[00:39:07] So you can look that up. So anything else that you wanted to share today that you haven't gotten to share? I look forward to your sharing your second story another time.
[00:39:17] That one, too. I mean, they were both great experiences, but I think the difference with the second one is just like, I owned it from the very start, you know, and I was educated and had the birth outcome that I wanted.
[00:39:27] But I really think it's just, you know, be empowered, be informed. That's really what can make or break a situation. And yes, we'd, once again, we know when medical things arise, but then support even you can have, you can end up in a hospital birth, you could end up in a cesarean, but support and that love around you really is going to make a difference to foster those beginning days with you and your baby and bonding and pumping or nursing or whatever that looks like with you and your partner and your family.
[00:39:58] Lisa: Great. Thank you so much, Simone. This has been lovely.
[00:40:02] I look forward to connecting on Instagram soon and then we'll schedule a time go over your second for you to share your second story. Hope you have a wonderful day. Talk soon.
[00:40:12] Simone: You too, Lisa. Take care. Bye.
[00:40:14] Lisa: Bye.